Who will NOT be saved?

edpobre.... first of all... it is through Faith that we are saved, through grace. Being in the 'fold' is not the requirement for salvation. No, it is a product of it, as is physical baptism. They are not what saves... it is only faith.


Secondly... of course you have seen all of the posts in the 'denial of the trinity' thread... if not... you need to have a look see. Anyways... question for you...

WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF LIFE??? Just wanting to know

take care

FOW

SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE
John Newton



"Salvation is wholly of grace, not only undeserved but undesired by us until God is pleased to awaken us to a sense of our need of it. And then we find everything prepared that our wants require or our wishes conceive; yea, that He has done exceedingly beyond what we could either ask or think. Salvation is wholly of the Lord and bears those signatures of infinite wisdom, power, and goodness which distinguish all His works from the puny imitations of men. It is every way worthy of Himself, a great, a free, a full, a sure salvation. It is great whether we consider the objects (miserable, hell-deserving sinners), the end (the restoration of such alienated creatures to His image and favor, to immortal life and happiness) or the means (the incarnation, humiliation, sufferings and death of His beloved Son). It is free, without exception of persons or cases, without any conditions or qualifications, but such as He, Himself, performs in them and bestows upon them."

James Vs. Paul: Salvation by Grace or by Works?
by James Walker

Is salvation by faith in Christ alone or in faith plus works?

This is one of the most important questions that must be answered when Christians witness to those in the cults.

Almost uniformly, cults teach that salvation is obtained through a combination of a person's faith plus works.

In other words, the cults will almost always teach that eternal life is based at least in part on doing a certain list of good deeds or serving the organization with time or money.

The challenge for the Christian, is to convince them to stop trusting their own good works or obedience for salvation and to put all of their faith and trust in Jesus alone for eternal life.

Often a Christian will rightly turn to the Apostle Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, or Romans chapters three and four to document the Biblical doctrine of salvation through faith alone.

But, at this point almost every cult member -- whether Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Worldwide Church of God, etc -- will turn to the book of James to defend their belief that works are necessary for salvation.

The Clash of the Apostles
Paul says that God is the, "...justifier of him which believeth in Jesus ...By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:26-28).

However James states, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

When witnessing to someone in a cult, Christians should be prepared to deal with this apparent contradiction. The nature of the Gospel hinges on a proper understanding of the relationship of faith and works in salvation.

Justification by Faith
The major theme of Paul's letters is that salvation is a totally free gift -- not earned by good works, rituals, or obeying laws. Eternal life is by grace through faith.

In Romans chapters three and four alone, Paul states this principle no fewer than fifteen times. A few examples are:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight...." (Rom. 3:19).

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested...." (3:20).

"Being justified freely by his grace...." (3:24).

"...Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (4:3).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (4:5).

"...God imputeth righteousness without works" (4:6).

Therefore it is of faith that it might by grace...." (4:15).

Justification by Works?
However, when turning to James one finds what appears at first to be a direct contradiction. James states:

"...though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...." (2:17).

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (2:20).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (2:24).

This apparent conflict between the two epistles has caused confusion on the part of many Christians when cult members point to James as "proof" that one must earn salvation.

As one commentator, Dr. D. Edmond Hiebert, observes, "This paragraph [James 2:14-26] is one of the most difficult, and certainly the most misunderstood, sections in the epistle.

"It has been a theological battle ground; James often has been understood as contradicting Paul's teaching that salvation is by faith alone apart from works" (The Epistle of James, D. Edmond Hiebert, p. 174).

Reformer Martin Luther, the champion of salvation through faith alone sola fide, once even called the book of James "a right strawy epistle" because of this difficult passage (ibid).

While some critics may even point to this as an example of the Bible contradicting itself, a close examination shows no contradiction between Romans and James -- both Paul and James were teaching the same Gospel.

What Kind of Faith?
In different contexts, the words belief or faith can mean a number of various things.

Someone may say, "I believe we will have rain tomorrow." This kind of belief is simply expressing an opinion or fact.

This type of belief, even when applied to religious truths, is not the kind of faith that saves. The devils believe that there is one God (a true Biblical fact) but this is not saving faith (James 2:19).

It is only agreeing with a fact such as someone who believes two plus two equals four.

As James Adamson points out the word faith (pisteuo) "...is used sometimes to mean mere intellectual belief in God's existence, a faith which even the devils share. (The Epistle of James, The New International Commentary on the New Testament p. 125.

It is this type of faith that James is attacking.

He rightly points out that one can distinguish between this type of "dead" faith and saving faith.

Saving faith will produce a changed life. A person who is saved is trusting Christ alone for their salvation, not their works (ie Romans).

However, once saved by grace alone, a true Christian will want to practice good works such as feeding the poor (ie James). Not to earn salvation -- which they already have -- but because they are saved. (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

John Calvin reduce this principle to a sentence: "Faith alone justifies, but the faith which justifies is not alone" (The Principles of Theology, p. 61).

James is warning of a belief in facts -- a type of faith that never results in a changed life.

Saving faith comes when someone stops trusting their own goodness or work (Phil. 2:8) and puts all their trust in Christ for salvation. And this type of faith will naturally exhibit good works.

Two Deadly Kinds of Faith
Paul and James were defending two different errors.

As one author explains, "They are not antagonists facing each other with crossed swords; they stand back to back, confronting different foes of the Gospel" (Alexander Ross, The Epistles of James and John, p. 53).

James was warning of the wrong kind of faith -- that is mere intellectual assent or belief in facts. Even if these facts are true, this type of faith can not save.

Paul's concern is over a different error. Faith with the wrong object. Paul was addressing those who were trusting in their own works or obedience rather than trusting Christ alone for salvation.

This kind of faith -- faith in works -- does produce a changed life. Like the Pharisees, people who believe that works are necessary for salvation are zealous to perform these works.

But neither faith in facts nor faith in works saves.

For both Paul and James, true salvation is found in believing, trusting, and having faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone for salvation.

This type of faith, true faith, will result in two things: eternal life and a desire to do good works.

WHICH WORKS SAVE?
The list of works necessary for salvation varies from cult to cult. A cult member will often feel that their eternal life is based on all or some of the following:

Donating money or tithes
Participation in secret rituals
Abstaining from certain foods or beverages
Spending hours each month fund-raising
(through literature distribution, or
the selling of trinkets or flowers)
Recruitment of new members
Observing certain holy days
Not observing certain holy days or holidays
Obeying the Ten Commandments and/or other laws
Baptism by the organization
Maintaining membership in the group
Abstaining from medical treatments
Purchasing the programs or literature needed for enlightenment
Loyalty and obedience to superiors
Limiting contact with former members or others outside the group
Although some of the items on this list are worthy goals that Christians should be involved in, none of these help gain eternal life. Salvation is a free gift (Titus 3:5). If someone is trusting any of these good deeds to help them earn salvation, they are not fully trusting Jesus as their Savior.

It is through faith that we are considered righteous. The same was true in the OT... consider Abraham...

It is a result of our faith that we recieve the Spirit of Christ... who then gives us the desire to live by God and not by the sinful nature that has been put to death in Christ's death. This results in action/fruit. It is the same concept and it is completely true. Our faith, if real, will result in action for God through God's Spirit within us. It is still not of our own good deeds or abilities, but of God's. While the flesh will still tempt the Christian... he does not have to live by that nature anymore. He has been made new in Christ, therefore through Christ he will desire to be like Christ. The Christian may still fall into sin, but the difference is that Christ's blood covers over those sins. And, Christ's Spirit that was put into us through faith gives us the desire and strength to overcome sin. If we have the Spirit we will have the desire and strength to overcome. If we do not have the Spirit, and then indeed we were never made new in Christ through faith, then we will not have any new desire, or strength. Thus there will be no works that glorify our Father in heaven. Some here may want to take a long look at Colossians 2 and 1 Cor 10:23-33 about freedom from human regulations.

Ephesians 2:1-9--As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.--2:8-9--For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.

2 Cor 5:14-21--For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself through Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 3:18--For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.--3:21-22--Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Romans 3:21-24 --But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.--4:3--What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credidted to him as righteousness."

(Here is where we see the products of faith, the actions) Romans 4:16-25--Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspritng be." Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Galatians 5:16-17--So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Fot the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

Colossians 3:1--Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right had of God.

Furthermore... edpobre... who is the author of life???

Posted by edpobre: "Then explain to me the meaning of John 10:7,9 which says, "Miost assuredly I say to you, 'I am the DOOR of the sheep.' I am the DOOR. IF anyone ENTERS by me (the DOOR), i]he WILL be saved.[/i]"

Check out the verses I posted. Entering through Christ is not entering through edpobre's interpretation of the Bible. It is entering through faith in the Risen Lord. Faith and faith alone friend. This faith will result in the fruits claimed by the Spirit.

All of the verses you state have nothing to do with whether Christ created the world or not. They state that God created the world... and God's word states that Christ is God who became like man to enable Him to undergo death for us. That is why you will see Christ addressed as the Author of Life in Acts... just more reasons mounting on the scale.

All of your views take "interpretation" ed... all of the verses if simply read and believed reveal that Christ is indeed God Almighty who took off that 'robe' and put on the 'robe' of humility... indeed even subjecting Himself to death. I believe Him, you do not

believe

Posted by edpobre: "[I am NOT asking HOW one ENTERS through the DOOR. I am asking WHAT one ENTERS in order to be saved. John 10:7 says that Jesus is the DOOR of the SHEEP. The SHEEP means FLOCK or FOLD. And the FLOCK is the CHURCH of Christ that Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa). Therefore, John 10:9 is telling us that anyone who ENTERS the CHURCH of Christ BY him (meaning the TRUE church) WILL be saved. If you TRULY have FAITH in Jesus, do as he says: ENTER the TRUE Church of Christ.]"

No edpobre... lets get what Christ says instead of what edpobre says...

John 10:9--"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture."---- This says nothing about edpobre's church... Christ says that the only way through the gate is through Him. As a matter of fact... it says nothing about 'church' at all!

John 11:25--Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"---- Once again... nothing about edpobre's church... Notice ed... that you always draw something into the verses... you never leave them as they are. Believe what He says.

Read through all of Bible verses I posted earlier... I don't think I added anything... just posted straight verse... because they speak for themselves.

Posted by edpobre: "[Isaiah 37:16 says the Lord God CREATED heavens and earth. Isaiah 46:9 says there is NO other God besid Him. Isaiah 63:16 identifies the Father as the oinly one God. Isaiah 64:8 identifies the Father as rhe "potter" meaning the CREATOR. Malachi 2:10 identifies the Father as the ONLY creator.]"

Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.

take care

FOW

Here are some verses for you edpobre... they have been posted numerous times... and will continue to be posted as long as garbage is being thrown around this forum pertaining to who others claim Christ is. I believe Him.

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

Hey saints and soontobees,

Wanted to put up two verses for your commit, scripually of cource.

And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.Galatians 5: 24

Or same verse Galatians 5: 24 [color=bf0000] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.[/color]

And:

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6: 22

NOW are you really 'saved' according to these verses?

well... look at your own words below your "forum name"... (by His blood we are cleansed)

The bible tells us that we are given the Spirit of Christ after we believe. When we believe we recieve Christ's eternal sacrifice that covers our transgressions. God now looks upon Christ's blood instead of our sins. The Spirit of God within us is what makes us a new creation. He is the author of the desire in us to follow God. It is by His strength that we do God's will (live according to the Spirit.) The flesh (the desires that come with 'flesh') are still there, and we may still fall. However, the one that has the Spirit (who is saved) will realize sin when it occurs (through the Spirit) and will be given the desire and strength to overcome sin because of and again, through the Spirit. It never will be our own good works, but it is God working in us through the Spirit. If our salvation remains dependent upon our own works, then what good was Christ's sacrifice--what good is our faith? Our faith is what makes us righteous (just as Abraham.) The product of our faith will be the fruit of the Spirit that is given to us also as a result of that very same faith.

All of these things are backed up with scripture... check out the earlier verses given by "fieldsofwind" for starters.

take care

FOW