Too much of Mary and too little of ......

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Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and interact with the people.

Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

Rom 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.

2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.

Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.

Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.

Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.

Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.

Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.

Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.

1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.

2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.

2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.

1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.

Philemon 1:22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.

Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.

James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins.

James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.

James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.

1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.

1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.

3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
 
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You are acting as if I have stated that we should not pray for each other, of course we should! I never said that.

Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Perhaps you misunderstand mediator. Jesus is our go-between to God. This has nothing to do with not having people pray for each other.

You have in no way demonstrated that it is a biblical principle that I should pray TO anyone but my savior Jesus Christ. Notice I did not say FOR anyone.
 
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Then maybe you don't understand the term "pray to?" How can we ask Saints to pray for us? Shall we call them up on the phone?

You say its cool for us to pray for each other, then why do you have a problem with Saints. Its the SAME thing. The only difference is we don't have a 1-800-Heaven number to talk to them, so we go through prayer.
 
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Then maybe you don't understand the term "pray to?" How can we ask Saints to pray for us? Shall we call them up on the phone?


Saints, maybe Godly people still living on Earth, that is not hard to understand. Yes you could call them on the phone if you know them. Obviously I am not talking about anyone who is in heaven. I conside my pastor a sort of saint because he is a Godly man. So I guess I should pray to him when he dies? This is foolish, I will not attempt to discuss this any further since it is apparent that we will not agree and I would rather not argue this into the ground
 
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Do you pray for your family? You'd better stop. They can go directly to God through Jesus Christ, so why do they need you as an extra step? Does your pastor pray for the members of his church? Tell him to stop. You all can go directly to God through Jesus Christ; so why do you need him as an extra step?

Wolseley, What are you trying to say here? This makes no sense. I said that we can pray to God through Jesus. How do you turn this into we should not pray for our friends and loved ones? Before you say that I don't understand something, make sure you do.

I'd be real careful with casting doubts on anyone else's salvation, by the way, g_1933. There is a verse in the Bible which says "The judgement which you render will be judged upon you" (Matthew 7:2)----and if you start judging people worthy to go to hell, you might, according to this verse, end up going there yourself.

Again much like the "Churchs" viewpoint, a made up statement. I never questioned anyones salvation, I simply made a statement that God saved you if you are really saved. That is not a question nor a statement of what I think your position is.

I am not trying to call into question your whole beliefe system just the lie that Mary was somehow sinless. I do not need any deeper understanding of the Catholic faith to know that this is not correct. Nor do need any oral tradition that is apart from the Word of God.

In Christ,
G
 
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KC Catholic

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Well, being the fact that he has yet to read my post and reply to any of my comments it appears that g_1933 ONLY goal here is to stir up trouble and cause arguements in a non-debate forum.

g_1933 - I am asking you to evaluate why you have come to this particular forum, asked questions but refuse the answer or ignore them all together?
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

There are only two options:

A) They're a sinner

B) They're the glory of God.

Show me where ON EARTH it says that Mary was not a sinner. Just because the Bible never records one? It also only has about 50- verses at best of her. Why would the "mother of God" be absent from His word?
 
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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

There are only two options:

A) They're a sinner

B) They're the glory of God.

Show me where ON EARTH it says that Mary was not a sinner. Just because the Bible never records one? It also only has about 50- verses at best of her. Why would the "mother of God" be absent from His word?

Yawn...so Jesus was a sinner too?
 
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Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb).

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.
 
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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Yawn. No Jesus is the glory of God

John 1:14

"""""yawn.""""""

Great, so there is at least one exception to His words, that all have sinned.  Thus, "all" must not be meant literally.

Thank you, drive through.
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Originally posted by s0uljah
Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb).

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

Hey that's great and all how you can disprove it supposedly.

CAN YOU PROVE IT?
 
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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Hey that's great and all how you can disprove it supposedly.

CAN YOU PROVE IT?

Can I prove what? 

Why don't you take the time to actually read what is there...its isnt very long.  I guess you would rather just argue and attack your fellow Christians. *shrug*
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Originally posted by s0uljah
Great, so there is at least one exception to His words, that all have sinned.  Thus, "all" must not be meant literally.

Thank you, drive through.

No, there is no exception.

Jesus IS the glory of God. All have fallen short of the glory of God, except, the glory of God. How can He fall short of Himself?
 
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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
No, there is no exception.

Jesus IS the glory of God. All have fallen short of the glory of God, except, the glory of God. How can He fall short of Himself?

Yep, and the point is that, "all" is not literal, else you are calling Him a liar. Obviously, "all" meant in general, not literally all, else He would be included, since He was fully man, as well as being God.
 
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Actually, you BOTH are correct.

All have fallen short....execpt Jesus.

Mary acknowledged she needed a savior as well...but she was specific about who that savior was - GOD.

Let's look at scripture, because Mary herself acknowledged that she needed a Savior.

<B>Luke 1: 46-48</B><I> "And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. "</I>

Ok..who is Mary talking about, Jesus? No, Jesus was not yet born. She was talking about God. Do you believe that God is almighty, all-powerful and the creator of the heavens and earth?

If so...then, why could he not create a human who was pure at conception in order to be a vessel for the Savior to come to earth to us? Jesus could not be born with the stain of Original Sin..Jesus, being God had to come through an unstained vessel - could God have not created an unclean vessel? He created the earth, the heavens and all the creatures in it - yet he could NOT create one creature free from the stain of sin?


If God saved Mary - the question is then WHEN did God apply the saving grace of Jesus to Mary? Answer: at her conception. Because she could not be born into sin the salvation that Jesus was to bring to ALL MEN who have fallen short - God applied that salvation to Mary at her conception.

Impossible you say? Well God made the heavens and earth with his command - why not apply saving grace to Mary before she was born? Is God limited by our lack of faith and understanding?

No.
 
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