To Neal, VOW, and others =)

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Originally posted by VOW
To Quizzler:

I believe it is in James to "confess your sins to one another."

And after the Resurrection, Jesus breathes on the Disciples and says, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained."

Oh yes, these are very good verses. So the Catholic Church has just made a convenient way to do this, right? I mean you could go to your fellow brother or sister in Christ and do the same thing.
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Indeed, I find this of all Catholic doctrines, with the exception of their salvation and tradition, perhaps one of the most far off. A sinner confessing sins to a sinner in hopes of recieving the forgiveness of God. Nope. If you're going to confess your sins, confess it to who judges, atones, and forgives it. Not someone else with the same problems as you.
 
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Wolseley

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Well, DoF, if I go to my neighbor Joe and ask him to delay attacking Iraq, is it the same thing as going to President Bush and asking him to delay attacking Iraq? I mean, they're both Americans, right?

Or does it depend on the specific offices the individual has? Sure, a priest is a sinner; but he has the ability to be used by God to forgive sins because he holds that office. Mr. Bush has the ability to delay attacking Iraq because he holds the office of President.

You may not agree with Catholic doctrine, but don't disparage it.
 
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VOW

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To Quizzler:

So the Catholic Church has just made a convenient way to do this, right?

Not quite. The Church maintains the Sacrament was instituted by JESUS, and that He gave the power to hear confessions to the Apostles. This authority has been passed down to our bishops and priests of today through the Apostolic Succession.

If you confess to your next-door-neighbor, or to your bartender, or to your spouse that you have been cheating in your marriage, what is the possible outcome of your confession?

If you tell your neighbor, you could have started a wonderful piece of gossip to circulate. Or your neighbor might even get the idea that your spouse needs "consoling."

If you tell your bartender, he'll set up a tab for you, because you'll probably spend a lot of time crying in your beer.

If you tell your spouse, you may be making a trip to divorce court.

And I'll bet that NONE of those people has the grace from God to look into your heart and see if your confession is sincere, and to counsel you on your occasions of sin, and give you spiritual guidance to avoid repeating your mistake, all the while giving you direction on how to repair your relationship with God.

The priest, however, does all of these things. Plus an additional bonus: he keeps his mouth SHUT.

When we sin, we are wounded in our relationship with Christ. The Sacrament of Reconciliation gives us a God-given opportunity to repair the relationship and grow stronger in God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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:eek: SCREEEEEEEECCCCCHHH!!! boom! :angel:

I think we had a wreck here.

I am not saying i would tell my next door neighbor, unless i knew them as good Christian people that i could count on. I am not saying i would tell a bartender, because i don't even drink. I am talking about a Christian friend that you know you can be accountable to. Same as a priest.

Just like someone above mention, James says "confess to one another". It doesnt say to your priest. And i am not even griping about going to see a priest. I fine with that. And most Churches, especially bigger ones have Counselors that can help you, like a priest probably would.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by quizzler
I guess really confession really is not a big thing to me. I think of more accountability is important. I confess my sins to God and i am sure you do too. You just also go to a priest as well. But where is confession taught in the Bible?

Hi quizzler,

I just thought I'd share a bit about what I know.  I mentioned earlier the basis for apostolic succession, this is important.  If you missed it, I'll repost what I shared before:

Christ came to build the Church.  How did he do this?  He appointed apostolic offices, and filled them with 12 men (at first).  He then commanded them to go out and appoint bishops as the overseers of Churches and ordained those new leaders with the "laying on of hands" (1 Tim 4:14).  Then, those appointed bishops were commanded to go and ordain other bishops in exacly the way they themselves were appointed by the first apostles (Titus 1:4-5; 2 Tim 2:2). So you have a continuation of the Church that never ends.   This body of leaders was one united group of bishops, elders, etc., and they formed the leadership authority of the Church.

Now, these leadership positions are actual "offices" that men can aspire to and must be approved  (KJV - 1 Tim 3:1; 1 Tim 3:13; Romans 12:4; Rom 11:13).  Furthermore, the offices continue (as do all offices held by men).  (Even the apostolic office held by Judas was replaced with a new apostle by  succession -- Acts 1:15-20).  Thus, we clearly see that Jesus appointed offices of men that were in turn to appoint other men who were in turn to appoint other men, and so on and so on.  And, all of these overseers were ordained of God by command of Christ -- therefore, these offices have authority from God.  This is the Church's very structure and leadership.  Paul envisioned that this Church was to continue carrying on world without end (Eph 3:21).



The fact is Christ was given all authority (Matt 28:18) and the 12 is were given authority by Christ.  Here's what scripture says about forgiving sins:

But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." (Luke 5:24, cf. Matt 9:6)

And I'm willing to bet that he gave the same authority to the disciples to overcome the enemy (Luke 10:19).  I could be wrong but it's implied there.

This is really important because Christ commands his apostles to do the same:

And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your father in heaven may also forgive you your espasses.<SUP> </SUP>But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses&nbsp;(Mark 11:25-26, cf. Matt 6:14-15)

And the office of apostles according to what I shared earlier is succeeded through apostolic succession.&nbsp; Keep in mind Jesus was talking to apostles, not mere laymen.&nbsp; Thus it seems this ministry was for those in that particular office.

I think it's clear that anyone who fills that particular ministry is called to follow the same commands of Jesus, like forgiving sins, since those who fill the apostles shoes are building up the body of Christ (Eph 4:10).&nbsp; And by a priest declaring forgiveness, I'm willing to bet he's obeying St. Peter's command:

If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. (1 Pet 4:11)

Also, remember when Paul was persecuting the Christians?&nbsp; Jesus says to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"&nbsp; Apparently Jesus was heavily implying that the church is literally the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27).&nbsp; So the way I see it, Jesus is forgiving sins, using priests.&nbsp; So they're instruments used by God, much like how&nbsp;other parts of the body of Christ is used to build up the rest of the body (1 Cor 12:12-28, Eph 4:11-13) :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba

And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your father in heaven may also forgive you your espasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses&nbsp;(Mark 11:25-26, cf. Matt 6:14-15)

And the office of apostles according to what I shared earlier is succeeded through apostolic succession.&nbsp; Keep in mind Jesus was talking to apostles, not mere laymen.&nbsp; Thus it seems this ministry was for those in that particular office.

I disagree here. That scripture clearly demonstrates an attitude that Jesus wants all his followers to carry. That verse ends by saying that God will not forgive you of your debts if you do not forgive others. This is an attitude that Jesus wants all his followers to be instilled with.

These were mere laymen. Mere people. Not your holier than thou people who really embarked to become power hungry leaders of a church and control their lives. They were people who until the Holy Spirit came upon them were still afraid and ran for their lives.

We all have the ability being in Christ. We are all supposed to be priest to the world.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Hi quizzler,

I'm not saying that the apostles were necessarily holier than mere laymen. I don't think position really determine's one's holiness. All I was saying that Jesus specifically gave the 12 apostles authority over the church. That would include the 'ability' to absolve sins.

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hi quizzler,

I'm not saying that the apostles were necessarily holier than mere laymen. I don't think position really determine's one's holiness. All I was saying that Jesus specifically gave the 12 apostles authority over the church. That would include the 'ability' to absolve sins.

God bless!

-Jason

I am trying to say that the scripture you gave all Christians are responsible to do. We are all priests to the lost. We have the ability to absolve sins as well.
 
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isshinwhat

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http://www.scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

Check out this site, Quizzler, for the Catholic view of Apostolic Succession.

Exodus 19:3

And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

The people of the nation of Israel were a kingdom of priests, as well, but there was still an ordained priesthood. Peter's statement that we will "be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ," doesn't preclude another ordained priesthood, just as God's proclimation in Exodus didn't preclude an ordained priesthood.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
A sinner confessing sins to a sinner in hopes of recieving the forgiveness of God. Nope. If you're going to confess your sins, confess it to who judges, atones, and forgives it. Not someone else with the same problems as you.

You are confessing your sins to God, through the priest. The priest can only forgive your sins because God has set things up that way and gave the power directly to the priest. The priest is not forgiving your sins himself, or from his own power.

This sort of thing is very common. The Bible is one way God communicates with us. The actual ink, paper, and binding do not have any power. They're just the vessel to trasmit God's word to us. Confession is the same thing.

-Chris
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by quizzler
I am trying to say that the scripture you gave all Christians are responsible to do. We are all priests to the lost. We have the ability to absolve sins as well.

I thought only priests can absolve sins....??? :scratch:

-Jason
 
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VOW

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To Jason:

Actually GOD absolves all sins. The priest does it "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." And this in no way detracts from the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for our redemption. We are RECONCILING ourselves to God, making ourselves available to the forgiveness of our sins and recommitting ourselves to God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Actually GOD absolves all sins. The priest does it "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." And this in no way detracts from the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for our redemption. We are RECONCILING ourselves to God, making ourselves available to the forgiveness of our sins and recommitting ourselves to God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hi VOW,

I fully agree, but Kern's statement sounds like anyone can absolve sins 'in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'.&nbsp; Is this the case?

-Jason
 
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