Too much of Mary and too little of ......

Originally posted by g_1933
You seem to think I am misunderstanding the Catholic viewpoint but that is not the case.

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Actually, you are misunderstanding the Catholic viewpoint, otherwise why would you even post a comment? If you truly knew what Catholics believe about Mary, why ask the question?

Because you do not fully understand the Catholic teaching - and I mean no offense by that comment. It's the truth - if you knew you would not ask nor would you have an issue with it.

My comments are based on the comment that Mary was a perfect creature of God. This statement is a false teaching and I am simply pointing it out as such.

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Actually, you are incorrect - look at the scripture below and my comments that follow.

I don't care how much honor you give someone as long as it does not take away from the worship due to God who saved you.(if you are really saved)

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Let's look at scripture, because Mary herself acknowledged that she needed a Savior.

Luke 1: 46-48 "And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. "

Ok..who is Mary talking about, Jesus? No, Jesus was not yet born. She was talking about God. Do you believe that God is almighty, all-powerful and the creator of the heavens and earth?

If so...then, why could he not create a human who was pure at conception in order to be a vessel for the Savior to come to earth to us? Jesus could not be born with the stain of Original Sin..Jesus, being God had to come through an unstained vessel - could God have not created an unclean vessel? He created the earth, the heavens and all the creatures in it - yet he could NOT create one creature free from the stain of sin?

I totally agree that Mary was blessed above all women, but I would never get on my knees and pray to her!

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So, she is worthy of being called "Blessed" and "Full of Grace" but you would never ask her to pray for you as you would a stranger on the internet? Intereting...it's Jesus' mother...Jesus is GOD...that would make his mom pretty special, would it not?

I can go directly to God through Jesus Christ, why try to invent an extra step? My whole issue is with the statement that Mary was somehow sinless and this being taught as truth when it is not found in God's Word which is the only source of truth.

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Here is where you contridict your statement that you understand the Catholic viewpoint on Mary. See my scripture and comments above and ask yourself if God and his abilities are limited by your lack of faith in his miracles.

Jesus Christ is our example os how to live no one else.

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I don't agree with this. Yes we should try to emulate the Savior, but the Bible is full of examples of sinners turned saints who we can hold near and dear to us and strive to attain what they have.

Not to mention other individuals in our lives. Mom, dad, an older brother or sister are used as role models every day.

Michelle

So, she is worthy of being called "Blessed" and "Full of Grace" but you would never ask her to pray for you as you would a stranger on the internet? Intereting...it's Jesus' mother...Jesus is GOD...that would make his mom pretty special, would it not

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took the words right out of my mouth...

I believe Mr. G 1933's position is lacking an understanding in one critical area; this is this act of praying to mary. Many non-Catholics don't see that we pray to her to ask her to pray for us. Just like anyone can pray for you on earth, so can Mary and all the angels and saints in heaven.

Wolseley,
My comments are based on the comment that Mary was a perfect creature of God. This statement is a false teaching and I am simply pointing it out as such.

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The Catholic teaching is that Mary was born sinless, not that she was "perfect" in a divine sense. Mary is not a goddess.

I don't care how much honor you give someone as long as it does not take away from the worship due to God who saved you.

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I believe I already pointed out that Catholic honor of Mary does not detract from honor of God. I even gave you quotes from a Catholic Church council. I don't know what else I can do for you.

(if you are really saved)

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This, I'm not even going to honor with a reply.

You seem to think I am misunderstanding the Catholic viewpoint but that is not the case.

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Sorry, friend, but as a practicing Catholic who knows the Catholic teaching, I can confidently tell you that you do, indeed, misunderstand the Catholic position. You don't have the foggiest notion of the Catholic understanding of Mary. If you did, you wouldn't be posting the type of stuff that you do.

I totally agree that Mary was blessed above all women, but I would never get on my knees and pray to her!

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Prayer does not equate with worship. Praying to someone does not mean you are worshipping them. The Old English meaning of the word "pray" means "to ask"; not worship. All we do is ask Mary to pray for us, we do not worship her.

I can go directly to God through Jesus Christ, why try to invent an extra step?

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Do you pray for your family? You'd better stop. They can go directly to God through Jesus Christ, so why do they need you as an extra step? Does your pastor pray for the members of his church? Tell him to stop. You all can go directly to God through Jesus Christ; so why do you need him as an extra step?

My whole issue is with the statement that Mary was somehow sinless and this being taught as truth when it is not found in God's Word which is the only source of truth.

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Mary's Immaculate Conception is not found in God's written Word; but it IS found in God's oral Word, passed on from the Apostles for the last 2,000 years. Simply because Martin Luther says you may safely ignore it does not make it any less divinely inspired, any less the spoken Word of God, or any less true. It doesn't have to be written (i.e., in the Bible) to be the Word of God.

I'd be real careful with casting doubts on anyone else's salvation, by the way, g_1933. There is a verse in the Bible which says "The judgement which you render will be judged upon you" (Matthew 7:2)----and if you start judging people worthy to go to hell, you might, according to this verse, end up going there yourself.

Leave the decisions about everyone else's salvation to God, g_1933. He's a whole lot better at those kinds of things than we are.

Originally posted by g_1933
Wolseley, 
My whole issue is with the statement that Mary was somehow sinless and this being taught as truth when it is not found in God's Word which is the only source of truth.

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Wrong, there is plenty of truth out side of God's Word.  2+2=4, and that's the truth

Abraham lincoln was shot, and that's the truth

Texas is the 2nd largest state, and that's the truth.

Here is some examples of extra biblical truth.  Another source is the Sacred Traditions handed down by the apostles.

Hi g_1933,

I just thought I'd share my thoughts on all this. Before we get into understanding Mary, you have to first understand the basis for 'communion of the saints', which is basically that the church in heaven and earth is one body and so believers in heaven can intercede for us. I know it sounds strange but consider the biblical reasons:

[I posted the following on another thread]

Paul teaches that God's people are not separated but that they are one body (Eph 4:4-5), this includes those in heaven as well as earth, that explains why Paul teaches that the family of God is both in heaven and on earth (Eph 3:15). If anything Paul establishes the Catholic foundation for communion of the saints.

Heb 12:1 and Heb 12:22-24 reveal that we are among our brethren in heaven. How? I don't know exactly, but since we are in Christ, those in heaven are likely praying that God's will be done in our lives (Matt 6:10) adn that maybe they're following the command of praying unceasingly (1 Thess 5:17), but this of course is just a mere guess. In anycase, God's word also reveal to us in the entire book of Revelation, a worship service in heaven, which clearly reveal the body of Christ in heaven and earth. And we see an angel holding the prayers of ALL the saints (Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4), which I think includes those in heaven and earth. This may imply that the saints in heaven hear our requests. Anyway, some often say that Catholics are praying to the dead, but those in Christ are not dead but living, since all who in Christ are all alive (Luke 20:38, Mark 12:27).

The only problem I see is that the Bible doesn't record HOW to go about asking the saints for prayer, which is where Catholics trust in tradition. Maybe one 'safe' way is to ask our brethren in heaven to pray for us is to pray to Jesus, (Acts 7:59 record Stephen praying to Jesus), and ask Jesus to ask other brothers to intercede for us. Why? Because according to the trinity, God the father and God the son are somehow different persons. So by going to Jesus and asking Jesus to relay message to our heavenly brothers, the heavenly brothers and go to God the Father, just like how all the old testament saints prayed to the father. And since Jesus said, "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:14), I have no problem asking Jesus to ask our brothers in heaven to intercede for us. It's like a massive heavenly prayer meeting.

You may also object by saying that those in heaven are dead and praying to dead people is sin.

[I posted this as well on another thread too]

Those in christ are not dead but alive, probably more alive than us (Luke 20:38, Mark 12:27). Also, keep in mind that just because something isn't in the bible doesn't mean it's not true. Jesus was supposedly have done so many miracles that it wasn't recorded in John (John 20:25). It's possible that Jesus could've done some bizarre miracles which weren't recorded in the bible, but just because it's not in there doesn't mean it's not true.

And the Bible does tell us that 'the dead' (which I call 'the living'), are praising God. Revelation clearly depicts that. Rev 6:10 even reveals to us that believers in heaven remember their past. there's tons of subtle things like that

One last point: You might also claim that 'all have sinned' as in literally all people. Yet, under careful exegesis, all doesn't always mean all. Are we to conclude that Cyrus literally ruled ALL the kingdoms of the earth? (2 Chr 36:22), would that include China and the Americas??

Anyway, check out this commentary on the word 'all':

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

That's taken from the following page:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=

I hope that helps.

God bless!

-Jason

It's also interesting how Luther, of all people, actually believed in the Immaculate conception, perpetual virginity and the assumption.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

-Jason

The only problem I see is that the Bible doesn't record HOW to go about asking the saints for prayer,

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The neat thing is, Jason, there is no difference between how we are to ask for their prayers and the way I ask for yours. They are truly alive!

God Bless,

Neal

Originally posted by isshinwhat
The neat thing is, Jason, there is no difference between how we are to ask for their prayers and the way I ask for yours. They are truly alive!

God Bless,

Neal

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Hi Neal,

Here's an interesting thought:

Actually...this has to do with 'heavenly physics' (assuming there is some kind of physics in heaven).

I guess the 'weird' part about asking heavenly saints to pray for me is that one would ask a saint in heaven to intercede for me.

But here on earth, if I wanted to ask you to pray for me, I wouldn't literally pray in the spirit so that you'll hear my prayer request (through some spiritual 'sense') so that you can pray for me.  All I have to do is take advantage of technology (phones, email, etc)

But how is it that those in heaven can hear our prayers?  I guess I should've avoided the term 'spirtual sense'.  In anycase, I guess the dynamics of how our brethren can hear our requests will remain a big mystery to me.

-Jason

But how is it that those in heaven can hear our prayers?

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I can only suppose it is a gift of the Beatific Vision, but I don't know. Come to think of it, there's a lot about Heaven I don't know! I have faith that their union with Christ allows them to pray for me, and that's about all I've got right now.

God Bless,

Neal

But how is it that those in heaven can hear our prayers?

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I don't think that heaven can be explained by earthren standards. It's like putting "natural" limitations on a supernatural existence. It simply doesn't work, and goes far beyond our understanding. You supported it with scripture (and very nicely I might add) in your previous post, and I think scripture should be enough to have faith that heaven and earth mingle in such a way.

Originally posted by Rising_Suns
I don't think that heaven can be explained by earthren standards. It's like putting "natural" limitations on a supernatural existence. It simply doesn't work, and goes far beyond our understanding. You supported it with scripture (and very nicely I might add) in your previous post, and I think scripture should be enough to have faith that heaven and earth mingle in such a way.

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Very true

I guess it all just comes down to faith.

-Jason

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

But how is it that those in heaven can hear our prayers? 
-Jason

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Well for starters, let's look at the Book of Revelations. 

"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)

"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).

These passages clearly show that others beside God hear our prayers.  The term "saints" as used in the above passages mean the faithful on earth.  But, we see an angel delivering our prayers to God in the first passage and in the second passage, we see 28 heavenly beings delivering our prayers to Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Another example from the Bible shows:

Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

In the first passage, we are speaking to God's angels!  "Bless the Lord, O you His angels."  Wow.  In the second passage, we praise God along with His angels!  How awesome.

 

Originally posted by g_1933
I totally agree that Mary was blessed above all women, but I would never get on my knees and pray to her! I can go directly to God through Jesus Christ, why try to invent an extra step? My whole issue is with the statement that Mary was somehow sinless and this being taught as truth when it is not found in God's Word which is the only source of truth.

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AH here se begin to see the problem. You struggle with the issue of prayer. Okay. Are you familiar with the epistle of James? Just in case allow me to quote it for you - James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Scripture tells us to pray for one another because the prayers of the righteous are VALUABLE. SO, let me ask you this, WHO is more righteous than those who are with God in glory having received their reward?? but here is where you say we should pray to non but God. Welp I think you misunderstand the function and definition of the word prayer.

The word pray means in its simplest form - TO ASK - tells us that prayer is a form of communication. It is how we in the flesh communicate with the spirit. There is no imputed worship in the word prayer although prayer can be a vehicle FOR worship. What more, not every prayer is an act or worship. It is quite possible to through prayer demean the Lord and attack him. The whole - God why did you let this person die prayer. Does that prayer give worship to God? Nope. Is it any less a prayer? Nope.

Now, the communion of saints is not a replacement for going to God in prayer. Any good catholic will tell you that as will the rest of us who know the truth of the communion of saints. Properly utilized, Communion of saints is a request for intercession - that is asking the saint in question to join with you and agree with you for a need to the Lord. Scripture also tells us that the many voices lifted in agreement is more powerful prayer for sheer the MAGNITUDE of multiple voices.

 

Originally posted by g_1933
I totally agree that Mary was blessed above all women, but I would never get on my knees and pray to her! I can go directly to God through Jesus Christ, why try to invent an extra step? My whole issue is with the statement that Mary was somehow sinless and this being taught as truth when it is not found in God's Word which is the only source of truth.

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You seem to think we worship her?  Praying to someone, or rather, asking them to pray for us is not worship.

Anyway, the whole Wedding of Cana in the Gospels gives scriptural support to our beliefs.  People went to Mary to ask Jesus to provide wine, and she said to them, "Do whatever He tells you to."  Jesus said "Woman it is not my time." But He did it anyway, because He wants intercessionary prayer.

Originally posted by s0uljah
But He did it anyway, because He wants intercessionary prayer.

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Thanks s0uljah! I never thought about it that way.

Originally posted by humblejoe
Thanks s0uljah! I never thought about it that way.

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Glad to be of assistance my brotha!  I can give you scripture if ya want it on that point...

Anyway, the whole Wedding of Cana in the Gospels gives scriptural support to our beliefs. People went to Mary to ask Jesus to provide wine, and she said to them, "Do whatever He tells you to." Jesus said "Woman it is not my time." But He did it anyway, because He wants intercessionary prayer.

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That is quite a stretch.

Scripture tells us to pray for one another because the prayers of the righteous are VALUABLE. SO, let me ask you this, WHO is more righteous than those who are with God in glory having received their reward?? but here is where you say we should pray to non but God. Welp I think you misunderstand the function and definition of the word prayer.

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I would have to say that Christ is more righteous, since no one else is righteous at all without Him. The Bible teaches that Christ makes intercession for us with the Father.

Now you say I have a problem understanding prayer, but I still have not seen even an attempt at my original statement about Mary.

The word pray means in its simplest form - TO ASK - tells us that prayer is a form of communication. It is how we in the flesh communicate with the spirit. There is no imputed worship in the word prayer although prayer can be a vehicle FOR worship. What more, not every prayer is an act or worship. It is quite possible to through prayer demean the Lord and attack him. The whole - God why did you let this person die prayer. Does that prayer give worship to God? Nope. Is it any less a prayer? Nope.

Now, the communion of saints is not a replacement for going to God in prayer. Any good catholic will tell you that as will the rest of us who know the truth of the communion of saints. Properly utilized, Communion of saints is a request for intercession - that is asking the saint in question to join with you and agree with you for a need to the Lord. Scripture also tells us that the many voices lifted in agreement is more powerful prayer for sheer the MAGNITUDE of multiple voices.

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What does this have to do with praying to Mary?

1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

What is God's will? Of course it varies in one's personel life but God wants us all to trust Him and believe His Word.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus Christ makes the intercession for those that know Him. I see no scriptural support for what you claim about praying to the saints.

Originally posted by g_1933
Anyway, the whole Wedding of Cana in the Gospels gives scriptural support to our beliefs. People went to Mary to ask Jesus to provide wine, and she said to them, "Do whatever He tells you to." Jesus said "Woman it is not my time." But He did it anyway, because He wants intercessionary prayer.

That is quite a stretch.

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In your opinion.

I would have to say that Christ is more righteous, since no one else is righteous at all without Him.

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I don't think you're going to get an arguement from that statement from Catholics.

The Bible teaches that Christ makes intercession for us with the Father.

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The bible also shows us in Revelation (ironicly) that the Saints prayers are heard in heaven:

Rev 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the <B>saints</B>".

Why would Saints, who are already in heaven need to pray to God? He is right there with them - why prayers? Could it be that those prayers are from the saints on earth? Us? Prayers from us being help in bowls held by four elders?

Are the elders four Jesus'? Looks like the elders have our prayers and are interceeding for us here on earth.

Then in Rev 8:3 "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the <B>saints</B> upon the golden altar before the throne"

Again, who are the saints in the passage? And who is interceeding for those saints? Jesus?


Now you say I have a problem understanding prayer, but I still have not seen even an attempt at my original statement about Mary.

Then you need to go back and read my post here http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=446119#post446119, because I addressed your question - plus I had a few questions I'd like you to answer for me.

What does this have to do with praying to Mary?

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Mary is a saint, she is in heaven, she&nbsp;was Jesus' mother, Jesus' loved his mother and gave to us to care for. I know in this day and age of double incomes, latchkey kids, daycare, etc., it's hard to imagine that someone's mother has&nbsp;an important role in their lives, but they do daily. &nbsp;

Jesus Christ makes the intercession for those that know Him. I see no scriptural support for what you claim about praying to the saints.

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See points written above - scripture contridicts your statement.

I see no scriptural support for what you claim about praying to the saints.

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God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out ofHis eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

Rev. 6:9-11 - God answers the prayers of the saints. In this case, he avenges their blood. We therefore ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 - in heaven the prayers of the saints rise up as incense before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his childrens' requests.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but allows and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.