Pastor John Piper on the prosperity gospel

ARBITER01 · Mar 13, 2008

Yitzchak said:
My prayer for Africa is that they will rise up in these last days and take hold of the natural resources which God has given them and have even greater prosperity than North America. That they will send out missionaries all over the world. That they will send food to help starving people in other parts of the world.

That there will be peace and the people will gain victory over disease and famine. Has anyone else seen the pictures of millions of Africans at outdoor crusades ?

Or what about places in East India or Asia ?
The truth is the greatest revivals are taking place outside of America. A few hundred years ago , the world thought " what good thing can come out of America ? ". No one thought prosperity existed outside of Europe or a few select areas. But certainly not poor British colonies , farmers and ranchers.... Common people....

But there were a few determined visionaries.... Why do we want to cheat people in third world countries out of that same hope and vision ?

The complete gospel is more than just God saves you and you hang in there until you die and go to heaven. We have a destiny and a calling as the church.... What is the destiny and calling of the third world church ?

I have been around some Christians who came out of third world situations. Guess what ?? They don't speak like the guy on this video ..... They are thankful for missionaries who preached to them.

Did he say all missionaries? Understand his audience and subject, it helps to see the picture better.

Yitzchak · Mar 13, 2008

Maybe some insight here would be needed,..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JI0BexTo0fQ

This guy is certainly a lot more balanced in his view and presentation.

ANM29 · Mar 13, 2008

The desire of a real believer at some point has to be to see the Kingdom of God done on earth as it is in heaven.

You at some point have to realize that the only reason God wants your to prosper is to give it back to others who have not.

If you are self-seeking prosperity for your own selfish motives and greed, you will not have real prosperity as a believer.

There are some things that only God can do by his Spirit.....Our job is to petition heaven and be prepared to be one of the ones who God will use to be a part of the clean-up.. Then you need to be in touch with God and aware of what he is planning to do that only his Spirit can do. There is only so much in the flesh that can be done, God is aware of that, and he has plans to make a change. Are you ready to be one of the privileged ones to help God?

ARBITER01 · Mar 13, 2008

ANM29 said:
The desire of a real believer at some point has to be to see the Kingdom of God done on earth as it is in heaven.

You at some point have to realize that the only reason God wants your to prosper is to give it back to others who have not.

If you are self-seeking prosperity for your own selfish motives and greed, you will not have real prosperity as a believer.

There are some things that only God can do by his Spirit.....Our job is to petition heaven and be prepared to be one of the ones who God will use to be a part of the clean-up.. Then you need to be in touch with God and aware of what he is planning to do that only his Spirit can do. There is only so much in the flesh that can be done, God is aware of that, and he has plans to make a change. Are you ready to be one of the privileged ones to help God?

This is correct!!

Yitzchak · Mar 13, 2008

The desire of a real believer at some point has to be to see the Kingdom of God done on earth as it is in heaven.

You at some point have to realize that the only reason God wants your to prosper is to give it back to others who have not.

If you are self-seeking prosperity for your own selfish motives and greed, you will not have real prosperity as a believer.

This was my short experience in a word of faith church. They preached be blessed to be a blessing. But when it came time to live it, they seldom did. Of course , I lost patience with that whole way of doing things. But I did respect them having faith for great things rather than being beat down by circumstances.

I would say that there is a time to enjoy the blessings that God gives also. It is not solely for giving to others...But there is much more to prosperity than money too. Things like a godly marriage , children for a barren woman , prospering in political freedom and peace as a nation....

The thing that really grieves me is when a properous church has poor people right in it's congregation that they refuse to help. And that , my friend describes almost every Evangelical church in America. Those with strong marriage need to help those who are struggling , those with health help those who struggle in that area. What if those who are strong would go on a 21 day fast for those who are ill and can't fast for their own breakthrough?

It reminds me of this bible study I went to where everyone was talking about Bill Gates and wouldn't it be great if he used his money for God's kingdom....

Yes , it would. Maybe he does ... I don't really know. but my response was what if every Christian who is middle class would rise up and put the kingdom of God first....

Yitzchak · Mar 13, 2008

Are you ready to be one of the privileged ones to help God?

I am there... I find I struggle with this flesh so much but I am there.....

ANM29 · Mar 13, 2008

Yitzchak said:
I am there... I find I struggle with this flesh so much but I am there.....

As long as you are there. If you are there, you are where God wants you to be. All the trials you have been through and are in are not for anything small God is planning, it is massive. You have been in preparation for purpose..

Get Ready brother.. :wave:

ANM29 · Mar 13, 2008

ARBITER01 said:
This is correct!!

Yep brother, you are there too. Get Ready :wave:

Simon_Templar · Mar 13, 2008

jiminpa said:
So let him refuse to take a salary, become homeless, have his wife and children leave him, and see how much God is glorified. God is glorified when what we have we give Him glory with, and what we don't have we give God glory with, but there is nothing more Spiritual in poverty than in being fully equipped to minister.

I don't think his point is that poverty is more spiritual. I think his point is that considering wealth as "more equipped to minister" and things like that is really horribly prejudicial and near sighted, rather than a Christian virtue.

VCViking · Mar 13, 2008

How does he claim to know that God doesn't want to bless Africa materially ? Is that a blessing only reserved for America ?

The message is not just for Africa but for all nations including America.

VCViking · Mar 13, 2008

ANM29 said:
The desire of a real believer at some point has to be to see the Kingdom of God done on earth as it is in heaven.

You at some point have to realize that the only reason God wants your to prosper is to give it back to others who have not.

If you are self-seeking prosperity for your own selfish motives and greed, you will not have real prosperity as a believer.

There are some things that only God can do by his Spirit.....Our job is to petition heaven and be prepared to be one of the ones who God will use to be a part of the clean-up.. Then you need to be in touch with God and aware of what he is planning to do that only his Spirit can do. There is only so much in the flesh that can be done, God is aware of that, and he has plans to make a change. Are you ready to be one of the privileged ones to help God?

You do not need to be wealthy to spread the Gospel. The apostles weren't wealthy and all were executed except for John. The Gospel is to save those that are lost from eternal punishment in hell and for them to spend eternity in Heaven. That's it. That's what we need to be ready for, to spread the Gospel to every creature. Some will be blessed with wealth, some blessed with middle/working class status and some blessed in poverty. All are God's will and He will use all.

It's where your heart is and most of the "name it and claim it" preachers have a black and selfish heart.

seekthetruth909 · Mar 14, 2008

VCViking said:
It is unbiblical for a Pastor to live in poverty if the area he lives in is not impoverished. It is also unbiblical for a Pastor to be extremely wealthy unless the area he lives is all millionaires. Double wages is what a pastor is to be paid. That can be calculated either by the medium income of his church or the medium income of the area.

1 Timothy 5:17-18

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

1 Corinthians 9:9

9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING " God is not concerned about oxen, is He?

Some scripture to ponder:

1 Corinthians 9
17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.

2 Corinthians 2 17Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sentfrom God.

Acts 20
33 I have not coveted anyone's silver or gold or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'

1 Thessalonians 2
As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, 7 but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. 8 We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. 9Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.

2 Corinthians 12
14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?

2 Thessalonians 3
6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

1 Corinthians 9
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

Acts 18
1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them.

2 Corinthians 11
7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
11 Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

1 Corinthians 4
8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings-and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

MosesMyFriend · Mar 15, 2008

The prosperity gospel will not work,
because the scriptures
about warnings to the rich
will always bug you.

seekthetruth909 · Mar 15, 2008

Yitzchak said:
This was my short experience in a word of faith church. They preached be blessed to be a blessing. But when it came time to live it, they seldom did. Of course , I lost patience with that whole way of doing things. But I did respect them having faith for great things rather than being beat down by circumstances.

I would say that there is a time to enjoy the blessings that God gives also. It is not solely for giving to others...But there is much more to prosperity than money too. Things like a godly marriage , children for a barren woman , prospering in political freedom and peace as a nation....

The thing that really grieves me is when a properous church has poor people right in it's congregation that they refuse to help. And that , my friend describes almost every Evangelical church in America. Those with strong marriage need to help those who are struggling , those with health help those who struggle in that area. What if those who are strong would go on a 21 day fast for those who are ill and can't fast for their own breakthrough?

It reminds me of this bible study I went to where everyone was talking about Bill Gates and wouldn't it be great if he used his money for God's kingdom....

Yes , it would. Maybe he does ... I don't really know. but my response was what if every Christian who is middle class would rise up and put the kingdom of God first....

Good point!

seekthetruth909 · Mar 15, 2008

MosesMyFriend said:
The prosperity gospel will not work,
because the scriptures
about warnings to the rich
will always bug you.

I know there are so many. I did a quick search and found these:

Matthew 6:19-21
1 Timothy 6:17-18
1 Timothy 6:3-10
1 Peter 5:2
1 Corinthians 9 17
2 Corinthians 2 17
Acts 20 33
James 4:3
Matt.19:23-24
Luke 12:15
Heb. 13:5
Col. 3:2
2 Corinthians 11:12-14
Matthew 24:11
Matthew 24:24
2 Corinthians 11:12-14
2 Peter 2:1
James 5:1-3
1 John 4:1-7

habeas · Mar 16, 2008

But then again, prosperity ministers tend to use a handful of proof-texts mostly from the OT and ignore all the above verses in the Bible.

JimB · Mar 17, 2008

seekthetruth909 said:
I came across this over in the non-denominational forum.
Comments?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukcV...7288-john-piper-on-the-prosperity-gospel.html

I didn’t think it was possible, but I think I have found someone who considers the so-called prosperity “gospel” more detestable than I do.

There is nothing wrong with prosperity (if you can handle it), but there is nothing righteous about being rich.

I will be reading more John Piper.

~Jim

Running down others is a dishonest way of praising yourself.

Mathetes the kerux · Mar 17, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
I didn’t think it was possible, but I think I have found someone who considers the so-called prosperity “gospel” more detestable than I do.

There is nothing wrong with prosperity (if you can handle it), but there is nothing righteous about being rich.

I will be reading more John Piper.

~Jim

Running down others is a dishonest way of praising yourself.

"Desiring God" is the hallmark. HUGE RECOMMENDATION.

www.desiringgod.org

BenAdam · Mar 17, 2008

Does he believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and that the gifts are active today?

hislegacy · Mar 17, 2008

BenAdam said:
Does he believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and that the gifts are active today?

NO

But j is right - having wealth doesn't make you righteous.

and being poor doesn't either.

Which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven you, or to say, Rise up and walk? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsHe said to the man who was paralyzed, I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.

Pastor John Piper on the prosperity gospel

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