CoachR64

Awesome, with a side order of amazing
Jul 2, 2007
7,292
673
45
Oklahoma City, OK
✟25,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ok, now I am finally home and able to sit down at a computer and give my thoughts.

First, Luther, you need to watch yourself. You are saying over and over that it is your opinion, your own catechism, and your own beliefs... then you call others fools for disagreeing with them. Joe Smith did the same thing.

I read through parts of the new testament this afternoon on my planning period while waiting for time to leave work.

In the first three books, there are two separate accounts in each book about Christ teaching the innocence of children.

In the 1st instance, Christ said that no one would enter the kindgom except as a child. In the 2nd, Christ was talking about the children and stated that the Kingdom of Heaven belonged to ones such as those.

It is also prevalent to note that when we are saved by Christ, we are children of God.

So, why must we be like a child to enter the Kingdom? Like adults, children are not free from sin. They simply are not accountable for what they do not know. They have no knowledge of sin. No knowledge of good and evil. Just like Adam and Eve were without sin when they had no knowledge of good and evil. It was when they gained that knowledge that sin entered the world.

So, children, while they may have sins in their life, are completely innocent because they have not the knowledge of good and evil. Sin does not control their lives because they don't know what it is. Their only purpose is to love and to serve, which is what Christians are called to do.

When we accept Christ, we become heirs. We are now children of God. We are not simply saved people, but children. We are now innocent of our sin because the blood of Christ covers it. We are now like children. Although we still sin, our innocence is not lost because we are covered. Just like children who have no capacity to understand good and evil are innocent as well.

Randy, allow me to hit on a couple of things you said.

Children are not born bad. They are not born good either. They are born.

A child is not automatically bad. It is their nature to explore and gain knowledge of how things work. Parents do not spank a childn's hand because grabbing a flower pot is a sin. They do it to protect the child from harm that could come from the flower pot being pulled on top of that child.

My nephew turns 2 next month. A few weeks back when I was at home recovering from my gun shot incident, my sister had to drop him off for a few hours while she did some things. He was sitting on my lap watching cartoons. He had a bowl of dry cereal in his lap. He would eat one, then he would push the next one towards my mouth. I never asked him to do that. That was just him. That was part of who he is.

Part of the reason that children are so innocent and that we must be like them to enter the kingdom is dependence. We must depend on Christ. Children depend on the protection of others and ability of others to meet their needs. They can not do it on their own.

Accepting Christ is a choice. When a child does not understand that choice and can not comprehend that choice, how can that child make the choice?

If you are trying to convince me that there is a god out there that sends children to hell for dying before they can comprehend the truth, I want no part of that god you serve. I will stick to the God who says the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the children.

Coach
 
Upvote 0

Luther073082

κύριε ἐλέησον χριστὲ ἐλέησον
Apr 1, 2007
19,202
840
41
New Carlisle, IN
✟31,326.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok, now I am finally home and able to sit down at a computer and give my thoughts.

First, Luther, you need to watch yourself. You are saying over and over that it is your opinion, your own catechism, and your own beliefs... then you call others fools for disagreeing with them. Joe Smith did the same thing.

I called the belief foolish, not the believer. There is a big difference.

I read through parts of the new testament this afternoon on my planning period while waiting for time to leave work.

In the first three books, there are two separate accounts in each book about Christ teaching the innocence of children.

In the 1st instance, Christ said that no one would enter the kindgom except as a child. In the 2nd, Christ was talking about the children and stated that the Kingdom of Heaven belonged to ones such as those.

It is also prevalent to note that when we are saved by Christ, we are children of God.

What he was teaching was people need to enter the kingdom of God with the humility of a child.

Also I should point out, children are *more* innocent then adults. But they are not totally sinless

So, why must we be like a child to enter the Kingdom? Like adults, children are not free from sin. They simply are not accountable for what they do not know. They have no knowledge of sin. No knowledge of good and evil. Just like Adam and Eve were without sin when they had no knowledge of good and evil. It was when they gained that knowledge that sin entered the world.

So, children, while they may have sins in their life, are completely innocent because they have not the knowledge of good and evil. Sin does not control their lives because they don't know what it is. Their only purpose is to love and to serve, which is what Christians are called to do.

When we accept Christ, we become heirs. We are now children of God. We are not simply saved people, but children. We are now innocent of our sin because the blood of Christ covers it. We are now like children. Although we still sin, our innocence is not lost because we are covered. Just like children who have no capacity to understand good and evil are innocent as well.

But what age of children are you speaking of here? For a baby you might be able to form the arguement that since they have no knowledge of sin that they are counted innocent.

Personally I disagree on the account that there was no sins in the garden of eden. And what I mean is that the one and only sin in the Garden of Eden was eating the apple at the center of the garden. After that you have nothing to back up a belief that not knowing something is a sin maintains your innocence in it.

Even a 3 year old knows disobeying his parents is wrong. And yet they do it. It really does not take long for them to commit a sin.

My nephew turns 2 next month. A few weeks back when I was at home recovering from my gun shot incident, my sister had to drop him off for a few hours while she did some things. He was sitting on my lap watching cartoons. He had a bowl of dry cereal in his lap. He would eat one, then he would push the next one towards my mouth. I never asked him to do that. That was just him. That was part of who he is.

There always is a desire to do good.

Part of the reason that children are so innocent and that we must be like them to enter the kingdom is dependence. We must depend on Christ. Children depend on the protection of others and ability of others to meet their needs. They can not do it on their own.

I don't agree that it makes them innocent but the reference to depending on Christ is true.

Accepting Christ is a choice. When a child does not understand that choice and can not comprehend that choice, how can that child make the choice?

No rejecting Christ is a choice. The Holy Spirit puts Faith on your heart, the only choice you make is if you want to push it out or not.

Luther's small Catechism said:
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

If you are trying to convince me that there is a god out there that sends children to hell for dying before they can comprehend the truth, I want no part of that god you serve. I will stick to the God who says the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the children.

I have three thoughts on this and I think the second is more likely.

My first thought is that God automatically grants forgivness to all children who are too young to understand good and evil. Simpily because they are too young to understand and had no opprotunity.

I don't like this because this almost sounds as if accepting Christ is a choice.

My second thought which i like the best is that God forgives and condemns people who died as children on the basis of what he knows as to how they would react if they where exposed to the Holy Gospel.

But my third thought is the most interesting thought.

Before a child is old enough to understand what we consider faith they actually do have a faith. Read where Pregnant Mary and Pregnant Elizabeth meet in Luke 1:41. John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth "leeps" upon encountering Jesus. One could possibly infer that a child at that young of an age is actually closer to his creator and savior then we adults are. However his exposure to this sinful and rebelious world destroys any form of faith that they may have had and drives God from their lives. And then they are forced to understand God the way adults try to understand God.

The third is kind of strange, I know. I personally think the second is most likely. Because we must admit that a soul is not a child, it only comes in the form of a child.

Above all though I belive we don't need to know the answer to this question. The answer is meaningless to our lives and what we do. This is where we really have faith and just trust God. And that faith means that we not only trust God that he will always be just and loving, but it also means that we accept with no reservations, that God defines justice and we do not.

As humans we like to define justice, say who should go to hell and who shouldn't. God says who should go to hell and I belive in the bible that means he's saying all non-belivers. (To me this seems clear). I don't like that one bit. And in some ways its hard for me to see what the justice is in that. But God is truely just and loving at all times, no matter what he decides.

Just remember thought it might not have been loving, it would have been just to leave us condemned to death and hell for eternity. That is justice
 
Upvote 0

CoachR64

Awesome, with a side order of amazing
Jul 2, 2007
7,292
673
45
Oklahoma City, OK
✟25,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Luther

A 3 year old does not realize disobedience is wrong. They no the consquences of those actions is not pleasurable. It is all action/reaction for the child. That is why physical discipline is highly effective on children.

Coach
 
Upvote 0

Luther073082

κύριε ἐλέησον χριστὲ ἐλέησον
Apr 1, 2007
19,202
840
41
New Carlisle, IN
✟31,326.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If we choose to accept Christ then we are having a hand in our own salvation.

I guess its kind of hard to understand but Christ is in your heart by default. You can push him out but you can't pull him in because he is already there.
 
Upvote 0

dluvs2trvl

What You See Is What You Get!
Nov 9, 2006
29,104
2,092
Washington
✟46,536.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
If we choose to accept Christ then we are having a hand in our own salvation.

I guess its kind of hard to understand but Christ is in your heart by default. You can push him out but you can't pull him in because he is already there.
That is the Lutheran line of thinking...not everyone believes that Kirk...
 
Upvote 0

Luther073082

κύριε ἐλέησον χριστὲ ἐλέησον
Apr 1, 2007
19,202
840
41
New Carlisle, IN
✟31,326.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

I would venture to say this involves the Eucharist more then anything.

In the Eucharist we ask Christ to come in among us physically for the meal.
 
Upvote 0

CoachR64

Awesome, with a side order of amazing
Jul 2, 2007
7,292
673
45
Oklahoma City, OK
✟25,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Luther,

Accepting Christ has NOTHING to do do with playing a part in our own salvation. Acceptance is not a work.

If someone drops off a gift at my house, I choose to accept it or deny it. Just because it is there, I still have to choose to accept it or choose to turn it down.

The call to the disciples was a choice. They chose to leave behind their lives and follow. There were those among Jesus who chose to turn away and not follow. Following Christ is a call. We either accept the call and follow Christ, or we deny it.

The Bible also tells us we choose the path we walk. Narrow is the path to God, wide is the path to Hell.

God gave us free will to CHOOSE Him or Reject Him. He chose us, we have to accept that or deny it.

An example: Larry is in love with Beth. Larry chooses her to be his girl. Beth doesn't feel the same way about Larry. So chooses to deny him and go for Bob. Just because Christ chooses us does not take away our choice. We choose to accept His salvation or we Choose to deny it.

Coach
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Inkachu

Bursting with fruit flavor!
Jan 31, 2008
35,357
4,217
Somewhere between Rivendell and Rohan
✟62,966.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Luther,

Accepting Christ has NOTHING to do do with playing a part in our own salvation. Acceptance is not a work.

If someone drops off a gift at my house, I choose to accept it or deny it. Just because it is there, I still have to choose to accept it or choose to turn it down.

The call to the disciples was a choice. They chose to leave behind their lives and follow. There were those among Jesus who chose to turn away and not follow. Following Christ is a call. We either accept the call and follow Christ, or we deny it.

The Bible also tells us we choose the path we walk. Narrow is the path to God, wide is the path to Hell.

God gave us free will to CHOOSE Him or Reject Him. He chose us, we have to accept that or deny it.

An example: Larry is in love with Beth. Larry chooses her to be his girl. Beth doesn't feel the same way about Larry. So chooses to deny him and go for Bob. Just because Christ chooses us does not take away our choice. We choose to accept His salvation or we Choose to deny it.

Coach
Well put, Coachie.
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
38
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
In the first three books, there are two separate accounts in each book about Christ teaching the innocence of children.

In the 1st instance, Christ said that no one would enter the kindgom except as a child. In the 2nd, Christ was talking about the children and stated that the Kingdom of Heaven belonged to ones such as those.

This has nothing to do with innocence. We are to come to Him humbly, as dear children are most certainly more humble that adults. Frankly, children tend to accept things much easier than adults do. The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who recognize that they cannot contribute one ounce of anything toward their salvation, but come to grips of the gospel of Jesus Christ with all humility, realizing that there is not good in themselves, but rather that Christ is the one who actually saves.

It is also prevalent to note that when we are saved by Christ, we are children of God.

Well, God as the Father, and we as His Children. If I may point out, we are also the bride of Christ. So, are we to be as women, as well? Honest question.

So, why must we be like a child to enter the Kingdom? Like adults, children are not free from sin. They simply are not accountable for what they do not know. They have no knowledge of sin. No knowledge of good and evil. Just like Adam and Eve were without sin when they had no knowledge of good and evil. It was when they gained that knowledge that sin entered the world.

I strongly disagree with this point as adults teach their children to obey, and yet... they disobey. So, if such is the case, and let me tell you, children do know what they are doing. They know full well that it is wrong (thus sinful) to disobey their parents, for example. If they disobey their parents, are they then not sinning?

So, children, while they may have sins in their life, are completely innocent because they have not the knowledge of good and evil. Sin does not control their lives because they don't know what it is. Their only purpose is to love and to serve, which is what Christians are called to do.

Begs the question: At what point does one come to the knowledge of good and evil? Oddly enough, there is no determinant about this in the Bible whatsoever, therefore any argument that will be made will be unbiblical. Sola Scriptura: By the authority of Scripture alone.

When we accept Christ, we become heirs. We are now children of God. We are not simply saved people, but children. We are now innocent of our sin because the blood of Christ covers it. We are now like children. Although we still sin, our innocence is not lost because we are covered. Just like children who have no capacity to understand good and evil are innocent as well.

We are washed of our sin. At no point does the Bible ever say that we are "innocent". However, we are justified, or in other words, redeemed from the consequences of our sins.

Randy, allow me to hit on a couple of things you said.

Children are not born bad. They are not born good either. They are born.

So you are saying that children are thus neutral? Sounds oddly familiar. "Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God." (source: http://www.carm.org/heresy/pelagianism.htm)

It's funny because Pelagianism was certainly declared to be heretical in the 5th century. I sincerely hope that this is not what you are subscribing to.

A child is not automatically bad. It is their nature to explore and gain knowledge of how things work. Parents do not spank a childn's hand because grabbing a flower pot is a sin. They do it to protect the child from harm that could come from the flower pot being pulled on top of that child.

We are, by nature, sinners. Eph. 2:3 says, "...among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Children fall short of the glory of God, and are thus sinners.

My nephew turns 2 next month. A few weeks back when I was at home recovering from my gun shot incident, my sister had to drop him off for a few hours while she did some things. He was sitting on my lap watching cartoons. He had a bowl of dry cereal in his lap. He would eat one, then he would push the next one towards my mouth. I never asked him to do that. That was just him. That was part of who he is.

Ok... your point here is...?

Part of the reason that children are so innocent and that we must be like them to enter the kingdom is dependence. We must depend on Christ. Children depend on the protection of others and ability of others to meet their needs. They can not do it on their own.

In fact, children can do nothing on their own... and neither can children of wrath (see Eph. 2:3).

Accepting Christ is a choice. When a child does not understand that choice and can not comprehend that choice, how can that child make the choice?

Hmm... accepting Christ may be a choice, but I ask the question: what about election? What about the Sovereignty of God? Understand one thing about the gospel, "no one understands; no one seeks for God." (Rom. 3:11). Heh... so how does one come to an understanding of Christ if no one can understand? I mean, since people are dead in their trespasses and sins (see Eph. 2:5), they cannot freely choose to become... alive again. When Lazarus was dead and Jesus raised him from the dead, Lazarus didn't say, "Oh, I think I'll become alive now." Jesus did it, not Lazarus.

If you are trying to convince me that there is a god out there that sends children to hell for dying before they can comprehend the truth, I want no part of that god you serve. I will stick to the God who says the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the children.

Coach

What about the Everlasting God who is Sovereign over all things and will have compassion on whom He has compassion and mercy on whom He will have mercy (Rom. 9:14)? How about the God who actually saves, and does not depend on the will of Man for Him to save people (1 Tim. 1:15; Rom. 9:16)?

This is quite the interesting discussion though, I am really enjoying it. And the logical arguments are good. Thank you Coach, I like how this isn't turning into personal attacks.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Randy
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
38
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Luther,

Accepting Christ has NOTHING to do do with playing a part in our own salvation. Acceptance is not a work.

Here we go...

If someone drops off a gift at my house, I choose to accept it or deny it. Just because it is there, I still have to choose to accept it or choose to turn it down.

Who in the right mind would reject the most glorious and most beautiful gift on the face of the earth? I am sorry, but when you have been made alive in Christ, you will inevitably choose the gift, aka salvation that is found in Jesus Christ alone (Eph. 2:5). Sorry Coach, but dead people do not freely choose to come to life (Eph. 2:3, 5).

The call to the disciples was a choice. They chose to leave behind their lives and follow. There were those among Jesus who chose to turn away and not follow. Following Christ is a call. We either accept the call and follow Christ, or we deny it.

Aw... effectual calling vs. the general call. Jesus Christ does not save everyone, He saves His people and His people alone. See previous statement.

The Bible also tells us we choose the path we walk. Narrow is the path to God, wide is the path to Hell.

God gave us free will to CHOOSE Him or Reject Him. He chose us, we have to accept that or deny it.

God chose who? God is the one who changes hearts (Ezek. 36:26). Yet again, Coach, dead people don't freely choose to come to life (see Eph. 2 again).

An example: Larry is in love with Beth. Larry chooses her to be his girl. Beth doesn't feel the same way about Larry. So chooses to deny him and go for Bob. Just because Christ chooses us does not take away our choice. We choose to accept His salvation or we Choose to deny it.

Coach

Hmm... Jn. 6:37 says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

Sounds pretty declarative there. Jesus is pretty confident that His people will come to Him.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Randy
 
Upvote 0

CoachR64

Awesome, with a side order of amazing
Jul 2, 2007
7,292
673
45
Oklahoma City, OK
✟25,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Humility does not save us. So if humility is all that is needed to enter the Kingdom, why did we need Christ? The children inherit the Kingdom because of their innocence and love.

Randy, children do not understand right and wrong. They understand action reaction. The "obey" out of fear of the consequences, not out of knowledge of right and wrong.

If you spank a child for pushing, they learn not to push. They don't understand that pushing is wrong, they simply understand that getting spanked hurts. So, they try to avoid punishment.

Again, to claim that children are not innocent (not held responsible for) in their sins is to claim that you serve a god that sens children straight to hell when they have no knowledge of right and wrong.

To claim that God saves who he wants to save nullifies the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. If God saves those he wants, then we would not need to follow Christ. We would just need to get lucky and be on the list.

Coach
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
38
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Who is Jesus talking to in Rev. 3:20?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CoachR64

Awesome, with a side order of amazing
Jul 2, 2007
7,292
673
45
Oklahoma City, OK
✟25,977.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Randy,

You keep contradicting yourself... is it our choice or now? God gave us free will. If we don't get to choose, there is no free will and no need for the sacrifice of Christ. If there is no choice and God saves only those he wants to save, what is the point of serving Christ? Might as well serve yourself and hope your on his list.

That is so far from Biblical truth it's almost funny... almost.

Coach
 
Upvote 0

Inkachu

Bursting with fruit flavor!
Jan 31, 2008
35,357
4,217
Somewhere between Rivendell and Rohan
✟62,966.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ya gotta be awful careful when saying "children", because that encompasses everyone from birth to 18 years old. I agree, a toddler does not understand right and wrong, they only understand discipline and consequences. However, they DO understand the concepts of right and wrong at a very young age, usually around 3 or 4. They understand that their actions can hurt or disappoint or anger another, and they know what it means to be hurt or angry by that age, and they can understand that they have a choice to do right or wrong. They may not understand the concepts of righteousness, sin, forgiveness, etc...but they DO understand right and wrong in the basic sense.
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
38
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Randy,

You keep contradicting yourself... is it our choice or now? God gave us free will. If we don't get to choose, there is no free will and no need for the sacrifice of Christ. If there is no choice and God saves only those he wants to save, what is the point of serving Christ? Might as well serve yourself and hope your on his list.

Are you not familiar with the bondage of the will? If not, I suggest you do your research. The will of people is bound by their nature. Think about it: People are able to do whatsoever they please, the thing is that their hearts are hearts of stone, and thus they cannot do anything but sin. Let's look at some scripture.

Rom 8:7 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh does not submit to the Law of God; indeed, it cannot." Oddly enough, people who are not already believers in Jesus Christ cannot have the opposite of this mind, that is the mind that is set on the Spirit. Why? Because the Spirit they have not. And so unbelievers, as the Bible clearly states here, cannot submit to the Law of God, which inevitably includes faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone. How can the mind that is set on the flesh come to grips with this? The only logical explanation is if God makes us alive, as Paul makes clear in Eph. 2:5 when he says, "even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins, made us alive together with Christ." Who makes us alive? Certainly not ourselves! Ergo, we do not have the libertarian free will that you teach here. We have inherited the original sin of Adam, which caused us to be bound by our sin nature or, in other words, "dead in our trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1).

So, you ask, if it is God's choice, then why should we serve Christ? Simply this: There is no spirit of obligation for the believer in Jesus Christ, hence the reason why Paul made it blatantly clear that we are free from the Law, as it is written, "For freedom Christ has set us free" (Gal. 5:1). However, we serve Christ because of our gratitude to Him. Furthermore, as being free, are not called to continue in sin because it doesn't benefit us (Rom. 6:1-2). Christ has saved us, and when we come to saving faith in Jesus Christ (following His monergistic regeneration of our hearts), we inevitably obey Him, as it is written, "by their fruit, you will recognize them" (Mat. 7:20). Honestly, if you have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, how are you going to react? Are you going to really desire to continue on in sin? By no means, in fact, quite the opposite. We inevitably obey Him, although we clearly still have the old man in our hearts, but our hearts have been changed, and we will inevitably follow Him (Ezek. 36:26-27). It's a new heart that serves and glorifies Him.

Finally, why would their be no need for the sacrifice of Christ? I think to believe in libertarian free will, which I think is that which you are promulgating, takes away from the effectiveness of Christ. Therefore, I ask, did Jesus Christ die to actually save people or to potentially save people? If you think it is potentially, then I must ask another question: What makes one person choose Christ and the other person not choose Him? Is it... intelligence? What is it? Can you answer that question?

I believe it is God working in the hearts of those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world that has caused those people to come to grips with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not people's intelligence or whatsoever other theory people may promulgate out there. Furthermore, Christ died for His own people because the Holy God Almighty will have nothing to do with sin, which would explain why Jesus Christ's blood is that which cleanses us completely of our sin. Completely.

That is so far from Biblical truth it's almost funny... almost.

Coach

Funny eh? I am yet to see any biblical proof that you have given me to argue against my points. All that I have seen you argue is that, apparently, we have this libertarian free will that you are promulgating. So, I ask, can you prove that we actually have a libertarian free will?

Again, I would suggest that you avoid the Pelagian camp. I mean, it has been deemed heresy....

Randy
 
Upvote 0

Luther073082

κύριε ἐλέησον χριστὲ ἐλέησον
Apr 1, 2007
19,202
840
41
New Carlisle, IN
✟31,326.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Luther,

Accepting Christ has NOTHING to do do with playing a part in our own salvation. Acceptance is not a work.

If someone drops off a gift at my house, I choose to accept it or deny it. Just because it is there, I still have to choose to accept it or choose to turn it down.

The call to the disciples was a choice. They chose to leave behind their lives and follow. There were those among Jesus who chose to turn away and not follow. Following Christ is a call. We either accept the call and follow Christ, or we deny it.

The Bible also tells us we choose the path we walk. Narrow is the path to God, wide is the path to Hell.

God gave us free will to CHOOSE Him or Reject Him. He chose us, we have to accept that or deny it.

An example: Larry is in love with Beth. Larry chooses her to be his girl. Beth doesn't feel the same way about Larry. So chooses to deny him and go for Bob. Just because Christ chooses us does not take away our choice. We choose to accept His salvation or we Choose to deny it.

Coach

Here is the best explaination that I have seen on it. Not really my church techincally but they are the closest to what I belive. (There are issues as to why I'm not in this church)

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod said:
10. We teach that conversion consists in this, that a man, having learned from the Law of God that he is a lost and condemned sinner, is brought to faith in the Gospel, which offers him forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation for the sake of Christ's vicarious satisfaction, Acts 11:21; Luke 24:46, 47; Acts 26:18.
11. All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; -- Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Pet, 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6.
12. On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude, his right self-determination, his lesser guilt or less evil conduct as compared with others, his refraining from willful resistance, or anything else whereby man's conversion and salvation is taken out of the gracious hands of God and made to depend on what man does or leaves undone. For this refraining from willful resistance or from any kind of resistance is also solely a work of grace, which "changes unwilling into willing men," Ezek. 36:26; Phil. 2:13. We reject also the doctrine that man is able to decide for conversion through "powers imparted by grace," since this doctrine presupposes that before conversion man still possesses spiritual powers by which he can make the right use of such "powers imparted by grace."
13. On the other hand, we reject also the Calvinistic perversion of the doctrine of conversion, that is, the doctrine that God does not desire to convert and save all hearers of the Word, but only a portion of them. Many hearers of the Word indeed remain unconverted and are not saved, not because God does not earnestly desire their conversion and salvation, but solely because they stubbornly resist the gracious operation of the Holy Ghost, as Scripture teaches, Acts 7:51; Matt. 23:37; Acts 13:46.
14. As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.
15. Our refusal to go beyond what is revealed in these two Scriptural truths is not "masked Calvinism" ("Crypto- Calvinism") but precisely the Scriptural teaching of the Lutheran Church as it is presented in detail in the Formula of Concord (Triglot, p. 1081, paragraphs 57-59, 60b, 62, 63; M. p. 716f.): "That one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again, etc. -- in these and similar questions Paul fixes a certain limit to us how far we should go, namely, that in the one part we should recognize God's judgment. For they are well-deserved penalties of sins when God so punished a land or nation for despising His Word that the punishment extends also to their posterity, as is to be seen in the Jews. And thereby God in some lands and persons exhibits His severity to those that are His in order to indicate what we all would have well deserved and would be worthy and worth, since we act wickedly in opposition to God's Word and often grieve the Holy Ghost sorely; in order that we may live in the fear of God and acknowledge and praise God's goodness, to the exclusion of, and contrary to, our merit in and with us, to whom He gives His Word and with whom He leaves it and whom He does not harden and reject...And this His righteous, well-deserved judgment He displays in some countries, nations and persons in order that, when we are placed alongside of them and compared with them (quam simillimi illis deprehensi, i.e., and found to be most similar to them), we may learn the more diligently to recognize and praise God's pure, unmerited grace in the vessels of mercy...When we proceed thus far in this article, we remain on the right way, as it is written, Hos. 13:9: `O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help.' However, as regards these things in this disputation which would soar too high and beyond these limits, we should with Paul place the finger upon our lips and remember and say, Rom. 9:20: `O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'" The Formula of Concord describes the mystery which confronts us here not as a mystery in man's heart (a "psychological" mystery), but teaches that, when we try to understand why "one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again," we enter the domain of the unsearchable judgments of God and ways past finding out, which are not revealed to us in His Word, but which we shall know in eternal life. 1 Cor. 13:12.
16. Calvinists solve this mystery, which God has not revealed in His Word, by denying the universality of grace; synergists, by denying that salvation is by grace alone. Both solutions are utterly vicious, since they contradict Scripture and since every poor sinner stands in need of, and must cling to, both the unrestricted universal grace and the unrestricted "by grace alone," lest he despair and perish.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums