If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by edpobre
"My dear friends,

do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed


Originally posted by edpobre
The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.
Thus, ONLY members of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO WILL be saved!




That's TRUE! The work of Christ on the cross is NOT sufficient in of itself for salvation
One must ENTER the FOLD or FLOCK in order to be SAVED. That fold or flock is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days. It has been GIVEN to them to KNOW The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven THROUGH a MESSENGER commissioned by God THROUGH Bible PROPHECIES.
Ed 
 





Alpha and Omega


The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity


The following links provide information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, their doctrine, who they state Jesus is?, what Salvation is according to their man-made doctrinal beliefs, the control they adminster to it's members, their deceptive practices, and the claims of the founder, Felix Manalo and his belief that he is spoken of in scripture as a messenger of God/The 5th angel.

There is a considerable amount of data that has been gathered on Iglesia ni Cristo, much of it from their own publications and former members.

I believe it is well worth the time reading over the information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, indeed.


Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
 
Upvote 0

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.
"

1. yes, because the bible shows christ claim he was pre-exsistant before he was "born".
2. We do not deny he was human, we just say he was MORE then just human. He was God incarnate.
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.
"

1. yes, because the bible shows christ claim he was pre-exsistant before he was "born".
2. We do not deny he was human, we just say he was MORE then just human. He was God incarnate.

Please show the scripture where you say Jesus CLAIMS pre-existence BEFORE he was born. Also, please explain what "God incarnate" means.

Ed

 
 
Upvote 0

fieldsofwind

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2002
1,290
11
41
Visit site
✟9,595.00
Faith
Christian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted by edpobre: "I wonder if Einstein would agree to this "out of space" equation!"

I wonder if you have read 1 cor. chapter 1. God says that he delights in the fact that man finds Himself as foolishness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by edpobre: "You really are FORCING a square peg into a round hole Ben. How can Jesus, a SEPARATE personality, be ABSOLUTE God when he does NOT know EVERYTHING the Father knows?"


Got something for you here ed... look this up.

Revelation chapter 19:12

take care

FOW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


Ed... who is the Lord of Glory?

scroll down








1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find it strange that edpobre has yet to address this post... been here for over a month I think... in various threads... each about this topic.

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by JLovesUSo
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5&nbsp;

It is PLAIN to see that this verse does NOT say anything about Jesus being God. Why don't you back up a bit to John 17:3, 1 and SEE that according to Jesus, the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God.

Ed
 
Upvote 0

fieldsofwind

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2002
1,290
11
41
Visit site
✟9,595.00
Faith
Christian
Posted by edpobre: “The Lord of Glory is Jesus. Don't you know that God MADE Jesus LORD? Read Acts 2:36.”

Here ed… you are contradicting every part of: I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)

What does the LORD say ed? He says that He will NOT do what you are saying He did. Explain that one. Of course… that is unless they are one in the same (which they are)

Posted by edpobre: “If you THINK God the Father BECAME Jesus because of YOUR interpretation of these verses, then answer me HONESTLY fow, who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1”

Here ed… lets let everyone read this and see what they see… how about it?

“The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

You ask: “Who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1?” Your dimensional understanding does not limit the Father ed. He is the LORD of LORDS… He is the Alpha and the Omega… the Beginning and the End… the First and the Last… He is the Living God who says that there are no others but Him. He is the Savior… He is the Redeemer. All of these things Christ claims as well.

However… you say that God made Him these things… and that He gave all of this to Christ. Ah ha, but ed… that contradicts the very character of God… He says that He will NOT give these things to another… He says that there are no others but Him. Therefore Christ is God the Father who TOOK the nature of a man, out of His own Love… He says that He made HIMSELF a man… no one else did this to Him. God did not make… some sub-god a man… He made HIMSELF a man. This is the Father to whom the one who came from the Father prayed to during the time that He made Himself nothing.

Posted by edpobre: “While it is true that Jesus (the MAN into which the WORD that was God BECAME) is the WORD of God”

You say that the Word is God… and that it came into a man. However, God says that The “He” (the “He” that you refer to as a mere man) was with God in the Beginning. So, basically… the “Word was God” refers to this “He” who was with God in the Beginning.

(In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.)

Posted by edpobre: “show me a scripture which says that <I>Jesus WAS the WORD</I> that was God <I>BEFORE he WAS born.</I>”

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Posted by edpobre: “Apostle Paul SAID: there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)”

Here… I will post the verse for you ed: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and from whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

First of all… read the verse… tell me… do you think that this verse is saying that they are two different beings? It is not… Furthermore… this does explain exactly what we have been discussing here. God the Father had to fulfill His covenant. He had to become the ultimate sacrifice for man… you want to see this in the Bible? >>> Here you go: The Bible says, (Hebrews 9:16-17), In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Through what was man made (as the verse indicates)? I say that it was through Love that God created us. (Remember through Him all things were made that have been made: John 1) Also, 1 John 4:9—“This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him.” 1 John 4:19—“We love because He first loved us.” I also know that God is love (1 John 4:8 and 4:16) This “Love” whom He is… desired to become our sacrifice: (Remember… the greatest love is willing to lay down his own life for his friend)… Importance on “HIS OWN.” You may say… God will not make Himself nothing therefore being able to sacrifice Himself. Why ed? Is God unwilling to do this? Is He too self-seeking to allow Himself to become humble and submit Himself to death? How would this be if Love is not self-seeking, and God is Love? (1 Corinthians 13:5)

Therefore: From an earlier post---When God made Himself a man... it was love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. (Which is why you see Him in subservience to the Father) This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendable love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Posted by edpobre: “Sure, God and Jesus are BOTH Alpha and Omega. They BOTH said "I am the Alpha and the Omega." But that does NOT make them ONE God. Alpha and Omega does NOT mean the same to God as it means to Jesus.”

Really… according to whom ed? Are you now speaking for Christ… saying what He is and is not? I simply believe what He says. I believe what He says to me through His Spirit. And I believe what He says in His word. I do not try to twist things around as you do. And if you say you haven’t, then answer all of the questions pertaining to Isaiah 42:8

Posted by edpobre: “Show me the verse that says "God MADE Himself a MAN.”

Well ed… Christ, in the word of God, says that He made HIMSELF nothing. The word does not say some separate being made Him nothing… it says He made Himself nothing. You seem to indicate that God gave some other being everything indicated in the above posts (coming with info straight out of the word)… The problem is that God HIMSELF says that He will NOT do exactly what you say He did. Here-- The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Posted by edpobre: “Earlier, you said that God the Father BECAME Jesus Christ. Now you are saying that Christ BECAME subject to God the Father.”
Well ed… the Bible says that the Word (who was God) became flesh. It is the flesh (who was God) that became subservient to the very God (the only God) from whom He came.

Posted by edpobre: “ Christ will SUBJECT himself to HIM (meaning God) who placed ALL things under his feet (1 Cor. 15:28). Finally, God will again become "Lord of Lords."

You say “again” meaning that there was time when He was not… a time where it was Christ. However, this again contradicts the nature of God. He says that HE WILL NOT give His glory to another. Yet Christ is the Lord of Glory. This can only mean that Christ is the same as the one who spoke this: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

The fact is ed, that you are indeed wrong. You have allowed darkness to pervert what God says. Believe Him ed!

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"It is PLAIN to see that this verse does NOT say anything about Jesus being God."

When combined with the verses around it, yes it does.

You did NOT quote my post in its entirety. I said: "It is PLAIN to see that this verse (John 17:5) does NOT say anything about Jesus being God. Why don't you back up a bit to John 17:3, 1 and SEE that according to Jesus, the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God."

Now Louis, what verses AROUND John 17:5 say anything about Jesus being God? John 17:1, 3 tell us that the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. Thus, the SON is NOT the true God.

BTW, you haven't&nbsp;replied to my previous post, to wit:&nbsp;Please show the scripture where you say Jesus CLAIMS pre-existence BEFORE he was born. Also, please explain what "God incarnate" means.

Ed
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
THE WORD MADE FLESH"
John 1:1-14
Introduction:


1. John endeavors to convince disbelieving Jews of divinity of Jesus

2. Jesus called by many names, but John seems to prefer "The Word." John 1:1,14; Rev. 19:13;1 John 5:7

3. Words are used to express one's mind. Jesus was the expression of the mind of God Heb. 1:1-3

I. THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. John 1:2
1. Assisted in the creation. John 1:3; Col. 1:16
2. Lived before Abraham. John 8:55-59
3. Asked to be returned to former glory. John 17:5


II. HIS COMING TO EARTH MEANT DEEP HUMILIATION
1. The MASTER became a servant. Ph. 2:8
2. The TEACHER had to learn. Heb. 5:8
3. The SAVIOR was tempted. Matt. 4:1-11; Heb. 4:15
4. The BREAD OF LIFE experienced hunger. Matt. 4:2
5. The GIVER OF WATER endured thirst. John 4:7; 19:28
6. The COMFORTER wept. John 11:35
7. The PROMISER OF LIFE died. Matt. 27:50
8. The SINLESS ONE received wages of sin. Ro. 6:23
9. The RESTORER OF LIFE was buried. Matt. 27:60


III. HIS EXALTATION
1. Resulted from His humiliation. Phil. 2:9
2. Able row to succor tempted ones. Heb. 2:18
3. Sits, at right hand of God. Heb. 12:2;1 Pet. 3:22
4. Is Head of the church. Col. 1:18
5. Will judge all men. Acts 17:30,31
6. Will reward all faithful children of God. Rev. 22

Outline by Thomas Winter Butterfield
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by gunnysgt
THE WORD MADE FLESH"
John 1:1-14
Introduction:

1. John endeavors to convince disbelieving Jews of divinity of Jesus

2. Jesus called by many names, but John seems to prefer "The Word." John 1:1,14; Rev. 19:13;1 John 5:7

3. Words are used to express one's mind. Jesus was the expression of the mind of God Heb. 1:1-3


John 1:14 is NOT about convincing disbelieving Jews of the divinity of Jesus. This is a FALSE premise.

John 1:1 is about God's "logos" or "wisdom"&nbsp;REGARDING the REDEMPTION of the world.The "WORD" in this verse is NOT Jesus. The "WORD" in this verse has NOT become a human being or a MAN yet. "The WORD was God" is a description of the POWER of God's "wisdom" (plan) REGARDING the REDEMPTION of the world. God's "wisdom" is as powerful as God Himself who OWNS it.

John 1:14 is about the FULFILLMENT of God's "logos" or "wisdom"&nbsp; THROUGH the birth of Jesus, a MAN. Here, apostle John is saying that God's "logos" or "wisdom" has BECOME a MAN or human being.

John 1:2-13 is about Jesus, the MAN&nbsp;who is the FULFILLMENT of&nbsp;&nbsp;God's "logos" or "wisdom"

I. THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. John 1:2
1. Assisted in the creation. John 1:3; Col. 1:16
2. Lived before Abraham. John 8:55-59
3. Asked to be returned to former glory. John 17:5

ALL of these are TWISTED interpretation of the cited verses.

God ALONE created or MADE heaven and earth (Is. 37:16). That God is the Father (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8) who CREATED us (Malachi 2:10).

Jesus did NOT say he LIVED before Abraham. All he said was, "Before Abraham I AM."

The context tells us that the Jews THOUGHT Jesus was talkibg of his birthday when he said that "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." But Jesus MEANT otherwise. He ws NOT talking of AGE. He was talking of his MISSION which was FOREORDAINED by God for him to do&nbsp; and that "day" that Abraham rejoiced to see is the "Lord's Day" or his SECOND coming.

The others agree.

Ed
 
Upvote 0

fieldsofwind

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2002
1,290
11
41
Visit site
✟9,595.00
Faith
Christian
Posted by edpobre: "God ALONE created or MADE heaven and earth (Is. 37:16). That God is the Father (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8) who CREATED us (Malachi 2:10)."

Ed... of course there is only one God... and He alone created the heavens and the earth. This in no way indicates that Christ is not God who became like man to be able to become our sacrifice. Christ is not some separate entity apart from God. He is not a different person or 'another' God. If this were so, then all of the verses indicating Christ's Diety would contradict the fact that there is only one God. Christ is the Living God who subjected Himself to humility, even the humility of taking man's punishment (death) for us. He became subservient to the Father from whom He came. Every verse you quote indicates this. The plethora of verses describing Christ as God fit together perfectly with those describing Him becoming flesh. This is why you see Him praying to the Father. This is why you see Him being subservient to the Father. God became subservient, (Christ), while at the same time still being God the Father in Heaven. The Bible clearly indicates Christ's Diety.

Posted by edpobre: "[John 1:1 is about God's "logos" or "wisdom" REGARDING the REDEMPTION of the world.The "WORD" in this verse is NOT Jesus.]"

Ed... instead of getting "the bible according to edpobre"... lets see what it actually says

John 1:1--"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

You say that the Word here is "not Jesus". Unfortunately for you ed... Jesus says that He is the beginning! The verse says the "Word was God". Then it clearly goes right into saying "He was with God in the beginning"... now who do you suppose this 'He' is? So by saying A=B and B=C... one can say that A=C. (I'm using this because I noticed you used some 'math logic' a while back) So this 'He' is directly addressed as "was God". This fits in perfectly with Hebrews 1:5--For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

So ed... I think that anyone who simply reads what the Bible says without reading in "ed's" logic... will see that the Word = Christ.

Posted by edpobre: "[The "WORD" in this verse has NOT become a human being or a MAN yet. "The WORD was God" is a description of the POWER of God's "wisdom" (plan) REGARDING the REDEMPTION of the world.]"

Once again we have "the Bible accoriding to edpobre". The Bible does not say it is a 'description' of anything. It plainly states what it states... nothing more, nothing less. The Word, (who was God), became flesh. It says in verse 10 "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." This indicates the 'He' that we discussed above. It does not say that this 'He' is some kind of 'logos' or idea of God's... it says that "He" (the Word) was God and became flesh. The Word does not = "idea"/"logos"... The Word = God. This is straight from the Bible ed... no 'reading' anything into it.

Posted by edpobre: "[John 1:14 is about the FULFILLMENT of God's "logos" or "wisdom" THROUGH the birth of Jesus, a MAN. Here, apostle John is saying that God's "logos" or "wisdom" has BECOME a MAN or human being. John 1:2-13 is about Jesus, the MAN who is the FULFILLMENT of God's "logos" or "wisdom"]"

It is amazing how much one must 'force' into those verses when taken as "the Bible according to edpobre". We have already seen how this Word=God and that the Word is described as this 'He' who was with God in the beginning, and through whom all things were made. So by simply reading what is written we learn that this 'He' = God (the Word was God) and became flesh and made HIS dwelling among us. Once again... there is no "logos"/"idea"... it specifically says that the Word made HIS... (Indicating possession) dwelling among us. So it is the WORD itself, who was God, who became a man, that made HIS dwelling among us. Notice edpobre... that I do not use anything else but what is written in the Bible. I do not 'force' it to say what I want it to say. Believe!

It is amazing to read about all of the things that the Bible says about this Jesus Christ. If Christ was only a man... (as edpobre asserts)... then how could God call Him God... and also call Him the Lord that made everything. How could this man... just a mere man and nothing more... say that He is the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... and indeed the Alpha and the Omega? How could He say that He is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS? How could He say that when you see Him, you are seeing the Father as well? How could He pray to the Father (after He had become a like man) that He wants us (man) to be one even as He and the Father are one? If I am one with ben over here... are we not both human and equal? Then if we are one as Christ and the Father are one... is Christ not claiming equality with God? Christ obviously submitted Himself to being nothing for us. He became subservient to the Father... but as is indicated in Hebrews 9... this was necessary to become the sacrifice for our sins. It even clearly says... (no 'reading' anything into it)... that the one who made the covenant had to die. Well... here are some verses for those seeking the truth. Edpobre... believe!

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.