Preterists: Did anyone SEE Jesus come again?

franklin · Nov 2, 2002

Hi Ed,  I've been looking over your questions and what I posted below might at least help answer some of your questions.  The end of the age you are asking about is the end of the OC age.  The old religious system that was in it's last days during the time Jesus spoke to his disciples.

 

If Christ already came, do we need to still preach the Gospel?

Answer: Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia (return) and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended! This does not mean that the gospel was not to be preached after the end had come. It was to be preached for ever and always. Notice the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:1-7). Notice what he says to his servants AFTER the city is destroyed (Matthew 22:8-10). We dwell in the New Jerusalem in the very presence of God and the invitation is still going out today. Notice the invitation that goes forth from the New Heaven and Earth: Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Hoonbaba · Nov 3, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
If the prophecies of Jesus referred only to the 12 tribes of Israel, what good is the Bible for Gentiles like us?

If as you say the gospel has already been preached to all the 'world' why are we still alive? Listen to what Jesus said:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the NATIONS, and the n the END will come" (Matt. 24:13).

What is this END that Jesus was talking about? This was Jes' answer to his disciples when they asked him the sign of his coming and the END of the age (Matt. 24:3).

Please note that SALVATION is attained ONLY at the END of the age (Matt. 24:13) and ONLY he who endures until the END shall be saved.

Ed

Hi Ed,

Great questions

Again, I mentioned I look at Revelation depicting the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new covenant.

Paul mentioned several times that the gospel went out to all the world (col 1:23, Col 1:6, Rom 10:18)

Keep in mind Matt 24:14 says this:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt 24:14, KJV)

The greek word for world is 'Oikoumene' which clearly refers to the Roman empire/world.  Compare Matt 24:14 with Luke 2:1:

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (KJV)

I highly doubt it was referring to Japan, America, South Africa, Australia, etc...Nor do I believe that Cyrus was literally given all the kingdoms of the world (2 Chr 36:23). 

And I doubt an earthquake literally struck the entire world (Acts 11:28)

As for the Bible being relevant for us, I'm sure anyone can say the same thing about Joshua.  Are we to think that we're supposed to carry 7 trumpets and march around the city of Jericho 7 times on the seventh day?

Or are we supposed to believe that Rahab still lives to this very day? (Joshua 6:25) I highly doubt it.

So how is the bible relevant?  It continues to speak truth about God's eternal love, grace, and all the other wonderful things about God =)

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Nov 3, 2002

Hi Ed,

I can't address everything now.  In fact I still have questions too.  In anycase, I just thought I'd address this while I have time:

Why is it that you believe 'cloud' is SYMBOLIC but take Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 LITERALLY? Do you Preterists LITERALLY eat Jesus' body and LITERALLY drink his blood too?

Isaiah 19:1 depicts God riding on a cloud.  This passage refers to the judgment that would fall upon Egypt.  God didn't show up literally on a cloud.

I take Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 literally.  And Catholics also literally eat Jesus's body and drink his blood through Communion.  They teach the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus.  They've taught that for 2000 years

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Nov 3, 2002

Earlier, you said that DEAD Preterists are now in heaven with the Lord. Who are the DEAD "IN Christ" referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16-17?

I posted this on another thread:

(It was posted by another brother, but it saves me a lot of time)

Only the dead are declared to be raised at the "Resurrection of the Dead." Paul states this fact in both 1 Thess 4:15-16 and 1 Cor 15:52. In both passages, it is the dead that get raised.
The dead are raised...

(1) out of Hades (Rev 20:12-15; 1 Cor 15:54-56)
(2) at the last (7th) trump (1 Thess 4:16; 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 11:15,18)

The living were not capable of preceding the dead (1 Thess 4:15-16). They remain and are caught up to be with all the saints in heaven at a later time (1 Thess 4:17). When? At physical death, of course (1 Cor 15:36; Heb 9:27; 2 Cor 5:1-2). Those that are partakers in resurrection of the dead have died once (Heb 9:27; 1 Cor 15:36) and can "die no more" (Luke 20:36; Romans 6:9) -- they have spiritual bodies and are like the angels in heaven (1 Cor 15:44; Luke 20:36).

Hope that helps =)

Anyway, I probably won't be around for a while.

God bless!

-Jason

 

edpobre · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
Hi Ed,  I've been looking over your questions and what I posted below might at least help answer some of your questions.  The end of the age you are asking about is the end of the OC age.  The old religious system that was in it's last days during the time Jesus spoke to his disciples.

Please show scripture that supports your belief that the end of the age which the disciples were asking Jesus (Matt. 24:3) refers to the end of the "Old Covenant Age."

Hebrews 8:13 tells us that when God declared that He will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31), He has made the FIRST (Old Covenant) OBSOLETE. Now what is becoming OBSOLETE and growing old is ready to vanish away.

And Hebrews 10:9 tells us that when Jesus CAME into the world (Gal. 4:4), he said, "Behold, I have come to do your will, O God." He takes away the FIRST (old covenant) that he may establish the SECOND (new covenant).

On the other hand, the "end of the age" that the disciples were asking refers to the "end of the world" or "judgment day" (2 Peter 3:7) or "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10) as evidenced by Jesus answer recorded in Matthew 24:37-39, thus: (37)"But as the days of Noah were, SO ALSO is the coming of the Son of Man be.

(38)For as in the days BEFORE the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in  marriage, UNTIL the day Noah ENTERED the ark.

(39)and did NOT know UNTIL the floods came and took them all away, SO ALSO will the cominbg of the Son of Men be."

Was Noah's flood symbolic or did it literally happen?  Is the Son of Man's SECOND coming (Heb. 9:28) symbolic or will it literally happen (2 Peter 3:7,10; 1 Thes. 4:16-17; 2 Thes. 1:8-9)?

 

If Christ already came, do we need to still preach the Gospel?

Answer: Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia (return) and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended!

Click to expand...

Please show scriptural proof that Jesus was talking about the END of the "old covenant age" when he talked about preaching the kingdom in Matthew 24:14. Also, please show proof that Jesus INDEED came in full glory.

How about Matthew 24:13, do Preterists mean that this verse is no longer relevant since the END of the "old covenant age" has come?

This does not mean that the gospel was not to be preached after the end had come. It was to be preached for ever and always. Notice the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:1-7). Notice what he says to his servants AFTER the city is destroyed (Matthew 22:8-10).

Click to expand...

This parable is explained in Matthew 22:14 where the lesson is: "Many are called but only a few are chosen." It has NOTHING to do with the gospel being preached forever AFTER Jesus comes.

We dwell in the New Jerusalem in the very presence of God and the invitation is still going out today. Notice the invitation that goes forth from the New Heaven and Earth: Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Click to expand...

Are you saying that we are NOW living under a NEW heaven and on a NEW earth? This heaven and earth that we live in now is WORSE than before. Is this the kind of heaven and earth that the Bible talks about? Think about it my friend,

In the NEW Jerusalem, there is NO MORE death, nor sorrow, nor crying. Don't Preterists die any more? Don't they experience pain or sorrow? You must be kidding my friend! 

Rev. 22:17 is Christ's CONTINUING invitation to people to LISTEN to him and follow him BEFORE he comes.

Ed

edpobre · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Again, I mentioned I look at Revelation depicting the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new covenant.

There is NO evidence that the book of Revelations is about the "end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new covenant."

On the contrary, the book of Revelation is about "the things which you (talking to John) have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place AFTER this" (Rev. 1:19).

The destruction of Jerusalem is just one of those things that was predicted by Daniel and John to happen in the future. And we know that this has happened to show that the word of God is TRUE. 

Paul mentioned several times that the gospel went out to all the world (col 1:23, Col 1:6, Rom 10:18)

That was the "world" that Paul knew existed at his time.

Keep in mind Matt 24:14 says this:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt 24:14, KJV)

The greek word for world is 'Oikoumene' which clearly refers to the Roman empire/world.  Compare Matt 24:14 with Luke 2:1:

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (KJV)

I highly doubt it was referring to Japan, America, South Africa, Australia, etc...Nor do I believe that Cyrus was literally given all the kingdoms of the world (2 Chr 36:23). 

Jesus' USE of "the world"  referring to the preaching of the gospel, is DIFFERENT from  the bible authors' USE of "the world" rreferring to the collection of taxes and establishment of kingdoms.

To Jesus, "the world" refers to ALL whom God WILL call, not only the Jews and their children but also to those who are afar off (Acts 2:38). I will expound on this later.

To bible writers, "the world" refers to nations, tribes and clans that were evident to them or they were familiar with during their time.

And I doubt an earthquake literally struck the entire world (Acts 11:28)

Again, this refers to  nations, tribes or clans that were evident to the writer during his time. The verse says, this prediction came true when Claudius was emperor.

As for the Bible being relevant for us, I'm sure anyone can say the same thing about Joshua.  Are we to think that we're supposed to carry 7 trumpets and march around the city of Jericho 7 times on the seventh day?

This account of Joshua is HISTORY. We know that  HISTORY serves as a lesson to guide future generations.

Or are we supposed to believe that Rahab still lives to this very day? (Joshua 6:25) I highly doubt it.

Why do you have doubt that Rahab NO LONGER lives today. Of course, Rahab is DEAD. But the bible account regarding Rahab  serves as a guide for future generations of God's people to follow. The Today's English Version renders Joshua 6:25 as follows: "... (Her descendants have lived in Israel to this day)."

So how is the bible relevant?  It continues to speak truth about God's eternal love, grace, and all the other wonderful things about God .

Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:14? He SAID: "And the GOSPEL of the kingdom will be preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations, and then the END will come."

You say, "the world" refers to the Roman Empire.  This is FALSE!

I say, "the world" refers to ALL whom God WILL call, not only the Jews and their children but also to those who are afar off (Acts 2:38).

Jesus SAID that no one can come to him UNLESS the Father draws him (John 6:44). Thus, as apostle Peter said,  God CALLS people, even those who are afar off, (Acts 2:38) and BRINGS them to Christ.

Has God  STOPPED calling people to BRING them to Christ? The answer is NO! God is still CALLING people because the "world" has NOT ended and Jesus Christ has NOT come to SAVE people from God's wrath.

How does God CALL people in order that they may be brought to Christ? God CALLS people by the GOSPEL! Apostle Paul wrote: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation THROUGH sanctification by the Spirit and BELIEF in the truth, to which He CALLED you BY our GOSPEL, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thes. 2:13-14).

God CALLS people for SALVATION by the GOSPEL. And God's CALLING of people to SALVATION by the GOSPEL will NOT stop UNTIL "the day of judgment and the perdition of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7) because God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come o repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

The END of the Old Covenant Age and the BEGINNING of the New Covenant Age is NOT dependent on the preaching of the GOSPEL.

As Hebrews 8:13 teaches, the Old Covenant BECAME obsolete when God SAID in Jer. 31:31 that "He will MAKE a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah."

And as Hebrews 10:5-7 teaches, when Jesus CAME into the world (Gal. 4:4), he came to "do God's WILL. HE takes away the FIRST that he may establish the SECOND (Hebrews 10:9).

As I said earlier, the Book of Revelation is NOT about the END of the Old Covenant Age. The Old Covenant ENDED when Jesus CAME into the world (born of a woman) to ESTABLISH the New Covenant.

Ed

edpobre · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hi Ed,

I can't address everything now.  In fact I still have questions too.  In anycase, I just thought I'd address this while I have time:

Why is it that you believe 'cloud' is SYMBOLIC but take Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 LITERALLY? Do you Preterists LITERALLY eat Jesus' body and LITERALLY drink his blood too?

Isaiah 19:1 depicts God riding on a cloud.  This passage refers to the judgment that would fall upon Egypt.  God didn't show up literally on a cloud.

I take Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 literally.  And Catholics also literally eat Jesus's body and drink his blood through Communion.  They teach the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus.  They've taught that for 2000 years

God bless!

-Jason

Just because Catholics have taught for 2000 years that the bread and wine LITERALLY become Christ's body and blood does NOT make that TRUE. It  IS A false DOCTRINE AND IT WILL remain fale until the day of judgment.

Your ERRONEOUS belief that DEAD Preterists INSTANTLY go to heaven as "spiritual angels"  on account of your equally-ERRONEOUS belief that Jesus has COME in 70 AD makes "clouds" SYMBOLIC and Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 LITERAL.

Read Mark 12:26 and tell me if God is LITERALLY "God of the Living." When God said to Moses, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," were these peopl LITERALLY alive as "spiritual angels?"

Isn't God, the God of David too? Is David  LITERALLY alive as "spritual angel?" At the time Acts 2:29, 34 was written, the patriarch David was still in his grave and has NOT ascended to heaven. Are you saying that God is NOT his God because you LITERALLY believe that God is NOT God of the dead but the living?

Your LITERAL interpretation of Mark 12:27 is ERRONEOUS my friend. The Bible teaches that those who are "IN" Christ, though they are DEAD are ALIVE (John 11:25-26). Think about this my friend.

Ed

edpobre · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

Earlier, you said that DEAD Preterists are now in heaven with the Lord. Who are the DEAD "IN Christ" referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16-17?

Click to expand...

 

I posted this on another thread:

(It was posted by another brother, but it saves me a lot of time)

Only the dead are declared to be raised at the "Resurrection of the Dead." Paul states this fact in both 1 Thess 4:15-16 and 1 Cor 15:52. In both passages, it is the dead that get raised.
The dead are raised...

(1) out of Hades (Rev 20:12-15; 1 Cor 15:54-56)
(2) at the last (7th) trump (1 Thess 4:16; 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 11:15,18)

The living were not capable of preceding the dead (1 Thess 4:15-16). They remain and are caught up to be with all the saints in heaven at a later time (1 Thess 4:17). When? At physical death, of course (1 Cor 15:36; Heb 9:27; 2 Cor 5:1-2). Those that are partakers in resurrection of the dead have died once (Heb 9:27; 1 Cor 15:36) and can "die no more" (Luke 20:36; Romans 6:9) -- they have spiritual bodies and are like the angels in heaven (1 Cor 15:44; Luke 20:36).

Hope that helps =)

Anyway, I probably won't be around for a while.

God bless!

-Jason

  [/B]

You did NOT answer my question Hoonbaba.  Earlier, you said that DEAD Preterists are now in heaven with the Lord. Who are the DEAD "IN Christ" referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16-17? Does this refer only to Preterists who die IMMEDIATELY before the SECOND coming of Christ?

And who are those who "are ALIVE and remain" that will be CAUGHT up TOGETHER with the DEAD?  Preterists believe that one HAS to die first BEFORE being raised to life. Therefore, those who are ALIVE and remain that will be CAUGHT up TOGETHER with the DEAD are NOT "Preterists at all, right?

Ed

franklin · Nov 6, 2002

Hi Ed,  What I think you are doing is looking at your Bible through 21st century eyes and a literal Hermeneutic.  This article by David Curtis might answer your questions you are asking about the New Heaven and New earth etc...

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/curtis-david_p_05.html

Hoonbaba · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
 

I posted this on another thread:

(It was posted by another brother, but it saves me a lot of time)

Only the dead are declared to be raised at the "Resurrection of the Dead." Paul states this fact in both 1 Thess 4:15-16 and 1 Cor 15:52. In both passages, it is the dead that get raised.
The dead are raised...

(1) out of Hades (Rev 20:12-15; 1 Cor 15:54-56)
(2) at the last (7th) trump (1 Thess 4:16; 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 11:15,18)

The living were not capable of preceding the dead (1 Thess 4:15-16). They remain and are caught up to be with all the saints in heaven at a later time (1 Thess 4:17). When? At physical death, of course (1 Cor 15:36; Heb 9:27; 2 Cor 5:1-2). Those that are partakers in resurrection of the dead have died once (Heb 9:27; 1 Cor 15:36) and can "die no more" (Luke 20:36; Romans 6:9) -- they have spiritual bodies and are like the angels in heaven (1 Cor 15:44; Luke 20:36).

Hope that helps =)

Anyway, I probably won't be around for a while.

God bless!

-Jason

 

You did NOT answer my question Hoonbaba.  Earlier, you said that DEAD Preterists are now in heaven with the Lord. Who are the DEAD "IN Christ" referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16-17? Does this refer only to Preterists who die IMMEDIATELY before the SECOND coming of Christ?

And who are those who "are ALIVE and remain" that will be CAUGHT up TOGETHER with the DEAD?  Preterists believe that one HAS to die first BEFORE being raised to life. Therefore, those who are ALIVE and remain that will be CAUGHT up TOGETHER with the DEAD are NOT "Preterists at all, right?

Ed [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Ed,

I don't plan to answer all your questions. In fact I still have questions for myself too

In anycase, Ed, there's no need to get angry or anything. That's the impression I'm getting but I could be wrong.

Anyway, from a preterists perspecticve, I think the dead in Christ were Christians who died prior to the fall of Jerusalem. Those who were 'alive' would eventually be caught up with the rest in heaven (when they die). That's just one possible explanation.

-Jason

parousia70 · Nov 8, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Has God  STOPPED calling people to BRING them to Christ? The answer is NO! God is still CALLING people because the "world" has NOT ended and Jesus Christ has NOT come to SAVE people from God's wrath.

How does God CALL people in order that they may be brought to Christ? God CALLS people by the GOSPEL! Apostle Paul wrote: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation THROUGH sanctification by the Spirit and BELIEF in the truth, to which He CALLED you BY our GOSPEL, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thes. 2:13-14).

God CALLS people for SALVATION by the GOSPEL. And God's CALLING of people to SALVATION by the GOSPEL will NOT stop UNTIL "the day of judgment and the perdition of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7) because God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come o repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Ed

 

Ed, Ed, Ed......

There you go again, preaching an "Expiration Date" for the everlasting Gospel.

 The Everlasting Gospel, which only purpose is to be preached to sinners on earth, is just that, everlasting. Contrary to your assertions, the everlasting Gospel has no "Use By" date. It will always serve it's saving function of calling sinners into covenant with God.

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that God Calls sinners to salvation forever.

Even in the New H & E, God continues to call out to all who thirst to come. (Rev 22:17)

In your theology Ed, there are none who thirst in time of the manifestation of the New H & E, but according to scripture, there are. 

As for your thread topic, I just wanted to add that all throughout the OT, Judgements of God were said to be accomplished by Jehovah Himself, personally & visibly.

This is how the prophets spoke.

"God rides a swift could"

"His holy arm was seen by the eyes of all nations"

"Egypt tottered at His presence"

In none of these fulfillments was God actually seen with physical eyes by anyone, yet they all came to pass as prophesied, not one failed.

I see no reason to ignore this set precident for the use of language such as "Every eye shall see", and opt, as you appear to be doing, for a polar opposite interpratation.

Scripture simply dosen't support it.

edpobre · Nov 9, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
 

Ed, Ed, Ed......

There you go again, preaching an "Expiration Date" for the everlasting Gospel.

 The Everlasting Gospel, which only purpose is to be preached to sinners on earth, is just that, everlasting. Contrary to your assertions, the everlasting Gospel has no "Use By" date. It will always serve it's saving function of calling sinners into covenant with God.

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that God Calls sinners to salvation forever

The Bible does NOT support your doctrine of "everlasting gospel." The Bible does NOT teach that God calls sinners to salvation forever.  This is a FALSE doctrine!

This is what apostle Peter admonished Christians in the first century:

"Therefore, since ALL these things will be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be DISSOLVED being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless, we, according to the promise, look for NEW heavens and NEW earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:11-13).

The END of the world is a LITERAL event that will come when God STOPS calling people by the GOSPEL. Jesus SAID the END will come when the GOSPEL is preached into all the world. This does NOT mean the Roman "world" only. God's CALL is for everyone - Jews, Greeks and those who are afar off (Acts 2:39). And God CALLS people by the gospel. God DESIRES everyone to be saved.

Thus, the belief that "world" refers only to Rome is FALSE.

Did the heavens and the earth that NOW exist melt with fervent heat in 70 AD? The answer is NO! Are we now in the NEW heavens and NEW earth? The answer is also NO!

The PROOF: If we are in the NEW heavens and NEW earth, does RIGHTEOUSNESS dwell on earth (2 Peter 3:13) TODAY after the "supposed COMING of Christ" in 70 AD? The answer is NO!

Even in the New H & E, God continues to call out to all who thirst to come. (Rev 22:17) In your theology Ed, there are none who thirst in time of the manifestation of the New H & E, but according to scripture, there are. 

Click to expand...

Your interpretation of Rev. 22:17 is WRONG. This CALL is connected to Rev. 22:12. Jesus is COMING (the day of the Lord) QUICKLY and is INVITING people who thirst and desire the water of life to come.  

As for your thread topic, I just wanted to add that all throughout the OT, Judgements of God were said to be accomplished by Jehovah Himself, personally & visibly.

This is how the prophets spoke.

"God rides a swift could"

"His holy arm was seen by the eyes of all nations"

"Egypt tottered at His presence"

In none of these fulfillments was God actually seen with physical eyes by anyone, yet they all came to pass as prophesied, not one failed.

I see no reason to ignore this set precident for the use of language such as "Every eye shall see", and opt, as you appear to be doing, for a polar opposite interpratation.

Scripture simply dosen't support it.

Click to expand...

Again, you are WRONG!

You seem to forget that "God in the PAST and in various ways SPOKE to the fathers by the prophets, HAS in these LAST days SPOKE to US by His SON" (Hebrews:1-2).

Jesus SAID that ALL tribes on earth will SEE the Son of Man COMING on the clouds with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30).

The disciples were told that "the SAME Jesus that they SAW taken up into heaven, will COME in like manner as they SAW him GO into heaven" (Acts 1:11).

There is NO reason for me NOT to believe what Jesus SAID in Matt. 24:30. He is MY Lord and Savior.

Ed

Hoonbaba · Nov 9, 2002

Rev 14:6 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earthto every nation, tribe, language and people.

edpobre · Nov 9, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Rev 14:6 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earthto every nation, tribe, language and people.

The meaning of "eternal gospel" in this passage is DIFFERENT from what Parousia70 had in mind. That the gospel is eternal means that it is the SAME gospel today and will still be the SAME gospel tomorrow.

What Parousia70 meant was that the gospel will be PREACHED forever.

Ed

 

franklin · Nov 10, 2002

Hi Ed,  This is part of a message from David Curtis and I hope it clarifies some of the things you are referring to regarding the preaching of the Gospel to the world:

Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations. Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven:

Colossians 1:5-6,  because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23,  if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

Romans 16:25-26, Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

Romans 1:8,  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.

Matthew 24:14,  "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

"Then the end will come." The end of what? What were they asking about? The end of the temple and the Jewish age. He is not saying the world will end when everyone has heard the gospel, or that the Christian age will end.

Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended!

This does not mean that the gospel was not to be preached after the end had come. It was to be preached for ever and always. Notice the parable of the wedding feast, read Matthew 22:1-7

parousia70 · Nov 11, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
The meaning of "eternal gospel" in this passage is DIFFERENT from what Parousia70 had in mind. That the gospel is eternal means that it is the SAME gospel today and will still be the SAME gospel tomorrow.

What Parousia70 meant was that the gospel will be PREACHED forever.

Ed

 

The Gospel, which sole purpose for existance is to call sinners to salvation, is everlasting.

What you are preaching is a Gospel that ends. A Gospel that will one day cease to serve it's everlasting function.

Scripture simply dosen't support such nonsense.

The PROOF: If we are in the NEW heavens and NEW earth, does RIGHTEOUSNESS dwell on earth (2 Peter 3:13) TODAY after the "supposed COMING of Christ" in 70 AD? The answer is NO!

The answer is YES!
Righteousness indeed dwells The new Heavens and earth of the new covenant:

1Corinthians 7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Righteousness indeed dwells on earth, in the eternal New Covenant today.
This was not the case before the Old Covenant was done away with.

edpobre · Nov 11, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
Hi Ed,  This is part of a message from David Curtis and I hope it clarifies some of the things you are referring to regarding the preaching of the Gospel to the world:

Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations. Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven:

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.

The WORLD during the time of the twelve apostles was DIFFERENT from the WORLD during the time of Paul and also DIFFERENT from the WORLD during these LAST days.

The WORLD during the time of the 12 apostles revolved around the Jews. The  WORLD during the time of Paul revolved around the Gentiles who were considered "children" of the Jews. And the WORLD during these LAST days revolve around "those who are AFAR OFF, as many (Jews and Gentiles) as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).

Matthew 24:14,  "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

"Then the end will come." The end of what? What were they asking about? The end of the temple and the Jewish age. He is not saying the world will end when everyone has heard the gospel, or that the Christian age will end.

Click to expand...

Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended!

Click to expand...

God CALLS people by the TRUE gospel (2 Thes. 2:14). While the WORLDS of the 12 apostles and Paul HAVE ended, the WORLD of Jesus CONCERNING his "other sheep" that he must bring INTO the fold (John 10:16) has NOT yet ended. Thus, the END of the WORLD as Jesus sees it, will END when the TRUE gospel is preached in ALL the WORLD of these LAST days.

It must be noted that the TRUE gospel was NOT preached from the time apostle Paul died when some bishops TURNED away from the TRUE faith and tortured and killed thoe who REMAINED true to the faith, UNTIL the RE-EMERGENCE of the TRUE church of Christ THROUGH the preaching function of a MESSENGER sent from God.

This does not mean that the gospel was not to be preached after the end had come. It was to be preached for ever and always. Notice the parable of the wedding feast, read Matthew 22:1-7

Click to expand...

The parable of the wedding is NOT about preaching the gospel long AFTER he HAS come. This parable is about the TRUTH that MANY are CALLED by God but only FEW are chosen (Matt. 22:14).

Ed

parousia70 · Nov 11, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
The Bible does NOT support your doctrine of "everlasting gospel."

I don't really need to offer any more refutation of this beyond my last post.

The words alone refute themselves.

 

This is what apostle Peter admonished Christians in the first century:

"Therefore, since ALL these things will be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be DISSOLVED being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Again, as I pointed out before, and you have neither aknowledged or addredssed, this same language is used by the prophets over and over and over, to describe the Judgement of individual nations.

What you are doing is affixing a meaning to these words in the NT that is in fact polar opposite to the meaning of the exact same language found in the OT.

 And worse yet, you are doing it without any scriptural precident or instruction to do so.

Perhaps I need to illustrate:

In Isaiah 34:4, we have the already fulfilled Judgement against Edom being described. Notice the language God uses to describe this local judgement:

4 All the host of heaven shall be DISSOLVED, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

Sound familiar?

Continuing, vs 5...

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

Show me the scripture that gives you reason and warrant to interprate "The Heavens being disolved" of 2 Peter 3 in polar opposite fashion to "the heavens being dissolved" of Isaiah 34.

 

Again, you are WRONG!

You seem to forget that "God in the PAST and in various ways SPOKE to the fathers by the prophets, HAS in these LAST days SPOKE to US by His SON" (Hebrews:1-2).

Jesus SAID that ALL tribes on earth will SEE the Son of Man COMING on the clouds with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30).

The disciples were told that "the SAME Jesus that they SAW taken up into heaven, will COME in like manner as they SAW him GO into heaven" (Acts 1:11).

I seem to forget?

You seem to forget that Hebrews 1:1-2 infallibly affixes the Biblical time period known as "The Last Days" to the generation of Jesus and His apostles.

Again about the "See" thing.

You fail to "see" that God is in fact always described as accomplishing His historical judgements against individual nations personally and visibly, using the language of global, even universal destruction. 

 And again, you choose to polarize your interpratation from the set precident without scriptural reason or justification to do so.

BTW, Acts 1:11 states Jesus was to return in "like manner" as He went "into heaven".

How did Jesus enter Heaven?

Hidden from the eyes by a cloud (vs 9)

There is NO reason for me NOT to believe what Jesus SAID in Matt. 24:30. He is MY Lord and Savior.

Ed

Ed my friend,

On that point, I couldn't agree with you more!

edpobre · Nov 12, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
BTW, Acts 1:11 states Jesus was to return in "like manner" as He went "into heaven".

How did Jesus enter Heaven?

Hidden from the eyes by a cloud (vs 9)

That's what YOU say - NOT what the Bible says. "...This SAME Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so COME in LIKE manner as you SAW him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11).

And this was how they SAW Jesus taken up into heaven: "...while they WATCHED, he was taken up, and a cloud RECEIVED him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9).

Tell me parousia70, how was Jesus "taken up" into heaven? On a cloud? That's NOT what the Bible says. In a flash? That's NOT what the Bible says either. Then how was Jesus "taken up" UNTIL a cloud RECEIVED him "out of their sight?"

Wasn't Jesus VISIBLE to his disciples' eyes up to a certain point?  And in LIKE manner will Jesus ALSO not be VISIBLE from a certain point?

Ed

parousia70 · Nov 12, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
That's what YOU say - NOT what the Bible says. "...This SAME Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so COME in LIKE manner as you SAW him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11).

And this was how they SAW Jesus taken up into heaven: "...while they WATCHED, he was taken up, and a cloud RECEIVED him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9).

Tell me parousia70, how was Jesus "taken up" into heaven? On a cloud? That's NOT what the Bible says. In a flash? That's NOT what the Bible says either. Then how was Jesus "taken up" UNTIL a cloud RECEIVED him "out of their sight?"

Wasn't Jesus VISIBLE to his disciples' eyes up to a certain point?  And in LIKE manner will Jesus ALSO not be VISIBLE from a certain point?

Ed

Ed, I must assume from your lack of rebuttal of the bulk of my previous post, you stand in agreement with it.

Good. Thats a start anyway.

You seem to be avioding the facts here Ed.

 Acts 1 clearly states the disciples were gazing "into heaven".

Tell me Ed, Can a Human being see the interior of heaven with physical eyes?

Since it is impossible for humans to see into heaven with physical eyes, The disciples must have been given "Eyes to see" into heaven.

Scripture confirms such is necessary for witnessing heavenly assumption of a Human being (see 2 Kings 2:9-12)

Tell me Ed, Does "In Like manner" mean "exactitude of detail"? If so , just how much in "Like Manner" as the departure will His return Be?

Only the disciples saw him go, will His return be "in Like Manner"?

He left as a humble servant. will His return be "in Like Manner"?

His departure was a "local event". Will His return be "in Like Manner"?

You are attatching "like manner" only to the supposed visibility of His departure, yet you claim all other factors will not be "in like manner" at all in the return.

 Where does the Bible tell you to do this?

He went into heaven in a cloud, He said His return would be "in a cloud", Just like Jehovah rode a cloud time and again int he OT, personal and visible.

You need look no further for your "like manner".

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