How do you explain the supernatural aspect of her gift?

NightEternal

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The Bible says the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword and will be a discerner of the heart and mind. If the word of God scares you because of the position you have assumed then maybe you need to rethink your position.

Lots of arrogant assumptions being made here. Who said the Word of God scares me? Furthermore, who says I am at odds with the Word of God in any area on this matter? Finally, what is this position you assume I have and why do you automatically assume it is false?

It seems some here are hell-bent on making this personal instead of dealing with the issues, choosing to ignore what is under discussion and instead focus on me and my 'heart', motivations, feelings and intentions.

I have no interest in that sort of dialogue manipulation and I will thank you for not making this topic about me.

EGW, was not perfect but I am convinced she was a messenger from God and the Holy Spirit influenced much of her writings. I think the problem many have is they take every word she ever wrote and scrutinize it to infiniti and nit pic her to pieces.

I agree. So why are you preaching to the choir as well? I am not one of the Walter Rea verbal inspirationist types whose world is shattered when they discover that EGW was actually human and made mistakes! Wow, what a concept!

I was truely blessed by reading "The Desire of Ages" and the "Great Controversy". Sister White said that just before the Lord returned her writings would come under heavy attack. She was very accurate on that prophecy as this thread prooves.

This has gone so far from my intentions for posting this topic.

I WANT TO HEAR FROM THOSE THAT HAVE FORSAKEN HER, NOT THE DEFENDERS.

Is this registering yet?

Enough of the charges that just because we want to ask honest questions and confront and deal with the issues that we are 'attacking' her. What nonsense! :mad:

RC_NewProtestant, thank you for the links. I will research them soon...

God Bless
Jim Larmore

******************************************
 
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NightEternal

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Hey, RC_NewProtestants!

I looked at that link concerning the heavy Bible.

Interesting. I don't know that I buy the explanation though. Seems like a lot of complicated physics gymnastics to try and explain something supernatural. :confused:

That is, assuming the Bible incident ever even happened.

As for the seizure argument, well...that really doesn't adequately explain a lot of things for me.

The search for the truth goes on...:)
 
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NightEternal

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Ahhhhhh, good times.

Um..maybe not. :sorry:

Well, this is an old one but a classic. It deteriorated into a full-on verbal bloodbath, but it didn't have to be this way. I went for the throat when there was no need to. With all of the squabbling, my questions never did get answered adequately. :scratch:

So, since we now have more people here, I'm wanting to try this again and get some more feedback. My opening post question still stands. Those who have rejected EGW but are still in the church, please give me your take on this troubling matter.

And no, this is not an attack on EGW, so put away the guns, please. I am really, honestly inquiring about this.
 
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Sophia7

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Honestly, I don't see a need to explain the alleged supernatural aspects or even to debate whether they were supernatural or not. I believe that EGW was a false prophet because she contradicted the Bible and because she made predictions that were not fulfilled. (I don't plan to debate those issues in this thread; there have been many previous threads for that purpose.) It doesn't matter to me whether she was deceived or deceitful or mentally impaired or empowered by Satan or any combination thereof. My standard for testing truth is the Bible, and anything that doesn't go along with it, for whatever reason, can't be trusted as divinely inspired. Some things that EGW wrote are truly inspirational (as are the writings of many Christian authors who are not considered prophets), but that does not justify attributing to her the authority and title of a prophet.
 
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NightEternal

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Not breathing while in vision:

PRO: http://www.ellengwhite.info/visions-loughborough-first-1.htm

CON: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw79.htm

Lifting heavy Bible:

PRO: http://www.ellengwhite.info/heavy_bible.htm

CON: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/refute3.htm

CON: http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Heavy_Bible.htm

Supernatural strength:

PRO: http://www.ellengwhite.info/visions-iron-bar.htm

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Dr. and Mrs. Merritt G. Kellogg&#8212;White Estate</SPAN>"I Am Quite Certain That She Did Not Breathe"

M. G. Kellogg, M.D.




As to Mrs. White's condition while in vision a few statements from eyewitnesses may be in place. The first is from M. G. Kellogg, M.D., who refers to the first vision given in Michigan, May 29, 1853, at a meeting held in Tyrone, Livingston County. He says:
"Sister White was in vision about twenty minutes or half an hour. As she went into vision every one present seemed to feel the power and presence of God, and some of us did indeed feel the Spirit of God resting upon us mightily. We were engaged in prayer and social meeting Sabbath morning at about nine o'clock. Brother White, my father, and Sister White had prayed, and I was praying at the time. There had been no excitement, no demonstrations. We did plead earnestly with God, however, that He would bless the meeting with His presence, and that He would bless the work in Michigan. As Sister White gave that triumphant shout of 'Glory! g-l-o-r-y! g-l-o-r-y!' which you have heard her give so often as she goes into vision, Brother White arose and informed the audience that his wife was in vision. After stating the manner of her visions, and that she did not breathe while in vision, he invited any one who wished to do so to come forward and examine her. Dr. Drummond, a physician, who was also a First-day Adventist preacher, who (before he saw her in vision) had declared her visions to be of mesmeric origin, and that he could give her a vision, stepped forward, and after a thorough examination, turned very pale, and remarked, 'She doesn't breathe!'
"I am quite certain that she did not breathe at that time while in vision, nor in any of several others which she has had when I was present. The coming out of the vision was as marked as her going into it. The first indication we had that the vision was ended, was in her again beginning to breathe. She drew her first breath deep, long, and full, in a manner showing that her lungs had been entirely empty of air. After drawing the first breath, several minutes passed before she drew the second, which filled the the lungs precisely as did the first; then a pause of two minutes, and a third inhalation, after which the breathing became natural." Signed, "M. G. Kellogg, M.D., Battle Creek, Mich., Dec. 28, 1890."​
F. C. Castle




We give the following statement from an individual who witnessed a medical examination of Mrs. White while in vision at Stowe, Vermont, in the summer of 1853. He says:
"A physician was present, and made such examination of her as his wisdom and learning dictated, to find the cause of the manifestation. A lighted candle was held close to her eyes, which were wide open; not a muscle of the eye moved. He then examined her in regard to her pulse, and also in regard to her breathing, and there was no respiration. The result was that he was satisfied that it could not be accounted for on natural or scientific principles." Signed, "F. C. Castle."​
D. H. Lamson




The following testimonials relate to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision in a meeting held in the home of Elder James White, on Monroe Street, Rochester, N.Y., June 26, 1854:
"I was then seventeen years old. It seems to me I can almost hear, those thrilling shouts of 'G-l-o-r-y!' which she uttered. Then she sank back to the floor, not falling, but sinking gently, and was supported in the arms of an attendant. Two physicians came in, an old man and a young man. Brother White was anxious that they should examine Sister White closely, which they did. A looking-glass was brought, and one of them held it over her mouth while she talked; but very soon they gave this up, and said, 'She doesn't breathe'. Then they closely examined her sides, as she spoke, to find some evidence of deep breathing, but they did not find it. As they closed this part of the examination, she arose to her feet, still in vision, holding a Bible high up, turning from passage to passage, quoting correctly, although the eyes were looking upward and away from the book.​
"She had a view of the seven last plagues. Then she saw the triumph of the saints, and her shouts of triumph I can seem to hear even now. To these facts I freely testify." Signed, "Elder D. H. Lamson, Hillsdale, Mich., Feb. 8, 1893."​
Mrs. Drusilla Lamson




Another testimonial is given respecting the same medical examination from Mrs. Drusilla Lamson, widow of Elder Lamson's cousin, and matron of Clifton Springs, N.Y., Sanitarium. Speaking of the meeting of June 26, 1854, she says:
"I remember the meeting when the trial was made, namely, to test what Brother White had frequently said, that Sister White did not breathe while in vision, but I cannot recall the name of the doctor who was present. . . . It must have been Doctor Fleming, as he was the doctor called sometimes for counsel. He is, however, now dead. I can say this much, that the test was made and no sign of breath was visible on the looking-glass." Signed, "Drusilla Lamson, Clifton Springs, N.Y., March 9, 1893."​
David Seeley

"This is to certify that I have read the above testimonials of David Lamson and Mrs. Drusilla Lamson, concerning the physician's statement when examining Mrs. E. G. White while she was in vision, June 26, 1854. I was present at that meeting, and witnessed the examination. I agree with what is stated by Brother and Sister Lamson, and would say further that it was Doctor Fleming and another younger physician who made the examination. After Mrs. White rose to her feet, as they have stated, quoting the text of Scripture, Doctor Fleming called for a lighted candle. He held this candle as near her lips as possible without burning, and in direct line with her breath in case she breathed. There was not the slightest flicker of the blaze. The doctor then said, with emphasis, 'That settles it forever, there is no breath in her body.' " Signed, "David Seeley, Fayette, Iowa, Aug. 29, 1897."​
Mr. and Mrs. A. F. Fowler




The following statements relate to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale, Mich., in the month of February, 1857. Doctor Lord, a physician of Hillsdale of fifty years' practice, made a most careful examination, concerning which I present the following testimonials:
"We were present when (in February, 1857) Sister E. G. White had a vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale. Dr. Lord made an examination, and said, 'Her heart beats, but there is no breath. There is life, but no action of the lungs; I cannot account for this condition.' " Signed, "A. F. Fowler, Mrs. A. F. Fowler, Hillsdale, Mich., Jan. 1, 1891."​
 
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NightEternal

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"I Held Her Thus with My Hand About Ten Minutes, Long Enough for Her to Suffocate"
C. S. Glover

Here is given another statement concerning the same vision:
"I was present when Sister White had the above-named vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale.
In addition to the above statement, I heard the doctor say that Sister White's condition in vision was 'beyond his knowledge'. He also said, 'There is something supernatural about that.' " Signed, "C.S. Glover, Battle Creek, Mich., Jan. 19, 1891."
Mr. and Mrs. Carpenter

Here is a third statement on the same case:
"This is to certify that we were present in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale, Mich., in February, 1857, when Mrs. E. G. White had a vision, and while in that condition was examined by Dr. Lord, and we heard his public statement respecting the case, as given above by Brother and Sister Fowler." Signed, "W. R. Carpenter, Eliza Carpenter, Noblesville, Ind., Aug. 30, 1891."​
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Daniel Bourdeau&#8212;White Estate</SPAN>D. T. Bourdeau


Your attention is next called to a test applied while Mrs. White was in vision at Buck's Bridge, St. Lawrence County, N.Y.:
"June 28, 1857, I saw Sister Ellen G. White in vision for the first time. I was an unbeliever in the visions; but one circumstance among others that I might mention convinced me that her visions were of God. To satisfy my mind as to whether she breathed or not, I first put my hand on her chest sufficiently long to know that there was no more heaving of the lungs than there would have been had she been a corpse. I then took my hand and placed it over her mouth, pinching her nostrils between my thumb and forefinger, so that it was impossible for her to exhale or inhale air, even if she had desired to do so. I held her thus with my hand about ten minutes, long enough for her to suffocate under ordinary circumstances; she was not in the least affected by this ordeal. Since witnessing this wonderful phenomenon, I have not once been inclined to doubt the divine origin of her visions." Signed. "D. T. Bourdeau, Battle Creek, Mich., Feb. 4, 1891." &#8212; The Great Second Advent Movement, by J. N. Loughborough, pp. 204-210.​
James White Statement &#8212; 1868

After the description of Mrs. White's experience in vision, . . . Elder White continues:
"She has been taken off in vision most frequently when bowed in prayer. Several times, while earnestly addressing the congregation, unexpectedly to herself and to all around her, she has been instantly prostrated in vision. This was the case June 12, 1868, in the presence of not less than two hundred Sabbath-keepers, in the house of worship, in Battle Creek, Mich. On receiving baptism at my hands, at an early period of her experience, as I raised her up out of the water, immediately she was in vision. Several times, when prostrated by sickness, she has been relieved in answer to the prayer of faith, and taken off in vision. At such times her restoration to usual health has been wonderful. At another time, when walking with friends, in conversation upon the glories of the kingdom of God, as she was passing through the gate before her father's house, the Spirit of God came upon her, and she was instantly taken off in vision. And what may be important to those who think the visions the result of mesmerism, she has a number of times been taken off in vision, when in prayer alone in the grove or in the closet.
"It may be well to speak as to the effect of the visions upon her constitution and strength. When she had her first vision, she was an emaciated invalid, given up by her friends and physicians to die of consumption. She then weighed but eighty pounds. Her nervous condition was such that she could not write, and was dependent on one sitting near her at the table to even pour her drink from the cup to the saucer. And notwithstanding her anxieties and mental agonies, in consequence of her duty to bring her views before the public, her labors in public speaking, and in church matters generally, her wearisome travels, and home labors and cares, her health and physical and mental strength have improved from the day she had her first vision." &#8212; James White, Life Incidents, in Connection With the Great Advent Movement, pp. 272, 273.
 
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woobadooba

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Honestly, I don't see a need to explain the alleged supernatural aspects or even to debate whether they were supernatural or not. I believe that EGW was a false prophet because she contradicted the Bible and because she made predictions that were not fulfilled. (I don't plan to debate those issues in this thread; there have been many previous threads for that purpose.) It doesn't matter to me whether she was deceived or deceitful or mentally impaired or empowered by Satan or any combination thereof. My standard for testing truth is the Bible, and anything that doesn't go along with it, for whatever reason, can't be trusted as divinely inspired. Some things that EGW wrote are truly inspirational (as are the writings of many Christian authors who are not considered prophets), but that does not justify attributing to her the authority and title of a prophet.

What predictions did she make that weren't fulfilled?
 
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NightEternal

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Eyewitness account of Lucinda Burdick


Lucinda Burdick and Mary Bodge joined Ellen Harmon for prayer one afternoon in 1845. Here is Ms. Burdick's account of what happened:
"While I was engaged in prayer, suddenly, Ellen Harmon became rigidly prostrate upon the ground. Miss Bodge immediately sent for James White who she said was the only one that could talk with her while in one of these spells. He and many others hurried to the spot and he immediately began to ask her a great variety of questions.​

"Her eyes remained open and assumed a glassy stare. Sometimes as she answered his questions she would rise stiffly to a half sitting posture only to fall back rigidly prostrate upon the ground. Her position upon the ground seemed so uncomfortable that I placed her head in my lap and supported her thus throughout the event.

"Many of the questions asked her by White were relative to the spiritual standing of people who lived in the surrounding country. Some she declared were right with God while others had spots upon their garments. It was noticeable that the spotted ones were those who rejected her visions or hesitated to accept them fully. ... "This trance condition lasted more than an hour and someone suggesting that the gathering dew would cause them to take cold, White said, 'I guess it will be the will of the Lord to bring her out,' and immediately she arose and assumed her normal behavior

Conclusion

Some have claimed that, while in vision, Ellen White performed supernatural feats, such as not breathing for an hour, holding up objects with supernatural strength, etc. If this is true, then why did Mrs. White admit that "many" who witnessed her "visions" said they were simply the result of excitement or mesmerism? There are only two possible answers. Either the witnesses actually believed that victims of "mesmerism" and "excitement" could stop breathing for long periods of time and manifest supernatural strength, or the witnesses did not witness anything of a supernatural nature. You decide.

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw18.htm
 
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Still grappling with this issue. :sigh:

How on Earth did those exhibitions Enhance God’s word other than to somehow enhance Ellen G White?

Who did it benefit?

Was anyone cured of disease or ailments by it?

Those displays were for the benefit Of E G White only and nobody else except to beguile those present.

They remind me of those demonic TV shows where some in the audience are pushed backwards and let down gently to the floor whereupon they are supposedly miraculously healed.

I don’t feel comfortable reading this sort of stuff NE.
As far as I am concerned these sorts of stories are demonic in nature.

Nothing personal about you N E, I like you and the things you write, I just don’t like this sort of morbid stuff about not breathing that’s all I am saying.

I could ask what next will the S D A brethren be looking at pictures, that sweat blood or vision of mother Mary or statues that cry holy water or blood from the eyes.
Why can’t S D A's get back to the Bible, don’t they trust the Bible on its own?

And yes I am sick to death of hearing about E G white because when her name is mentioned most of her supporters misapply Bible texts.
.

There are biblical texts which are concerned with the rejection of the Holy Spirit, 'the unpardonable sin' yet E G White supporters imply that those words are applicable to E G white also!
I am out of here and the out of the Adventist church for good!

Your Brother in Jesus PC
 
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Lebesgue

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This is my honest opinion.

I do not think Ellen White was inspired at all. I believe her "visions" were hallucinations caused by her medical condition. So did many of the physicians who attended her, some of whom were Adventist believers themselves.

Have you ever read the "Prophetess of Health" by Dr. Ronald Numbers?

Ellen White, IMHO, was a sincere Christian who truly loved the L-rd and wanted with all her heart to serve Him. However, she was also mentally disturbed to the point where she could not distinguish truth from error.
I'm not going to beat around the bush and "sugarcoat" things.

And if you go on Bro. Dirk Anderson's EllenWhiteExposed website you will find an account of a vision she had in 1846 where in a "vision" in Topsham, Maine she "saw" tall, majestic, people living on Jupiter" Did G-d tell her that? I don't think so.

Sorry but I was NOT blessed by "Desire of Ages" or the "Great Controversy". Regarding "Desire of Ages", I was deeply angered by the statement that Y'shua who IS G-D could have chosen to sin. The "Great Controversy" drove me to despair for my salvation to point I nearly gave up on G-d and became an atheist.

Ellen White did NOT have a "gift". She was ILL, plain and simple. But like I said I do believe she truly loved the L-rd and wanted to serve Him, but she WAS quite ill.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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OntheDL

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This is my honest opinion.

I do not think Ellen White was inspired at all. I believe her "visions" were hallucinations caused by her medical condition. So did many of the physicians who attended her, some of whom were Adventist believers themselves.

Have you ever read the "Prophetess of Health" by Dr. Ronald Numbers?

Ellen White, IMHO, was a sincere Christian who truly loved the L-rd and wanted with all her heart to serve Him. However, she was also mentally disturbed to the point where she could not distinguish truth from error.
I'm not going to beat around the bush and "sugarcoat" things.

And if you go on Bro. Dirk Anderson's EllenWhiteExposed website you will find an account of a vision she had in 1846 where in a "vision" in Topsham, Maine she "saw" tall, majestic, people living on Jupiter" Did G-d tell her that? I don't think so.

Sorry but I was NOT blessed by "Desire of Ages" or the "Great Controversy". Regarding "Desire of Ages", I was deeply angered by the statement that Y'shua who IS G-D could have chosen to sin. The "Great Controversy" drove me to despair for my salvation to point I nearly gave up on G-d and became an atheist.

Ellen White did NOT have a "gift". She was ILL, plain and simple. But like I said I do believe she truly loved the L-rd and wanted to serve Him, but she WAS quite ill.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Thank you for your opinion. But your opinion is irrelevant. Her writings are scrutinized and judged by the scriptures. So far it's been shown you are unable to use scriptures to justify any of your (different) believes .
 
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djconklin

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Those displays were for the benefit Of E G White only and nobody else except to beguile those present.

Actually, her vision of the planets was for the benefit of Bates. Not breathing doesn't beguile.

And if you go on Bro. Dirk Anderson's EllenWhiteExposed website you will find an account of a vision she had in 1846 where in a "vision" in Topsham, Maine she "saw" tall, majestic, people living on Jupiter" Did G-d tell her that? I don't think so.

No such vision ever took place. She never named the planets. Others did. If Dirk claimed that she named the planet as Jupiter then he lied to you through his teeth.

Regarding "Desire of Ages", I was deeply angered by the statement that Y'shua who IS G-D could have chosen to sin.

I have already given you the relevant Scriptures.
 
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Lebesgue

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Actually, her vision of the planets was for the benefit of Bates. Not breathing doesn't beguile.



No such vision ever took place. She never named the planets. Others did. If Dirk claimed that she named the planet as Jupiter then he lied to you through his teeth.



I have already given you the relevant Scriptures.

Bro. Anderson got his source on the Jupiter thing from Loughbourough who did write the "vision" down.
While others said what the planets were, Ellen didn't correct them did she?

As far as whether Y'shua could have chosen to sin, you either believe He is G-d or you don't. I believe He is G-d and G-d CANNOT sin. Period...
 
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NightEternal

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How on Earth did those exhibitions Enhance God&#8217;s word other than to somehow enhance Ellen G White?

Well, can deal with that once we establish wether they actually happened or not.

Who did it benefit?

If they actually took place, I suppose the ones who needed proof she was who she claimed she was.

Was anyone cured of disease or ailments by it?

Not that I know of.

Those displays were for the benefit Of E G White only and nobody else except to beguile those present.

Well, that is the logical conclusion if you believe she was a pawn of Satan. I don't hold to that.

They remind me of those demonic TV shows where some in the audience are pushed backwards and let down gently to the floor whereupon they are supposedly miraculously healed.

If the incidents took place as eye-witness accounts say they did, the source is dfinitely supernatural in origin.

The question then would be 'which source'?

You have made it pretty clear where you think it came from.

I don&#8217;t feel comfortable reading this sort of stuff NE.

Well, I didn't start this thread to comfort anyone. I am looking for answers.

That is a process that I have to undertake for my own reasons, and I cannot let someone else's comfort level dissuade me from that.

As far as I am concerned these sorts of stories are demonic in nature.

Yes, I gathered that much.

Nothing personal about you N E, I like you and the things you write, I just don&#8217;t like this sort of morbid stuff about not breathing that&#8217;s all I am saying.

I want to ascertain first if they actually took place. Once that is settled in my mind, then I can explore wether it is 'morbid' or not.

Why should any of us be afraid to discuss this issue openly? :confused:

I could ask what next will the S D A brethren be looking at pictures, that sweat blood or vision of mother Mary or statues that cry holy water or blood from the eyes.

That's if they are actually supernatural occurences or if they can be medically explained-which has not yet been established in my mind.

Why can&#8217;t S D A's get back to the Bible, don&#8217;t they trust the Bible on its own?

Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:

And yes I am sick to death of hearing about E G white because when her name is mentioned most of her supporters misapply Bible texts.

Well, like it or not, it is still an issue for those of us nonTSDA's still in the church. As such, we have to deal with it, like it or not.

I apologize if doing what I have to do offends you and causes you distress though. :(

There are biblical texts which are concerned with the rejection of the Holy Spirit, 'the unpardonable sin' yet E G White supporters imply that those words are applicable to E G white also!

I agree, that is preposterous. Just as preposterous as how the same wording that Scripture uses to describe itself has been used to describe EGW in the Fundamental Belief.

But, that is another topic for another time.

I am out of here and the out of the Adventist church for good!

Good grief man, you cannot expect to be on an Adventist forum and not have multiple threads on EGW being discussed! :doh:

Sheesh.

Well, farewell then. :wave:
 
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NightEternal

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This is my honest opinion.

I do not think Ellen White was inspired at all. I believe her "visions" were hallucinations caused by her medical condition. So did many of the physicians who attended her, some of whom were Adventist believers themselves.

Have you ever read the "Prophetess of Health" by Dr. Ronald Numbers?

Ellen White, IMHO, was a sincere Christian who truly loved the L-rd and wanted with all her heart to serve Him. However, she was also mentally disturbed to the point where she could not distinguish truth from error.
I'm not going to beat around the bush and "sugarcoat" things.

And if you go on Bro. Dirk Anderson's EllenWhiteExposed website you will find an account of a vision she had in 1846 where in a "vision" in Topsham, Maine she "saw" tall, majestic, people living on Jupiter" Did G-d tell her that? I don't think so.

Sorry but I was NOT blessed by "Desire of Ages" or the "Great Controversy". Regarding "Desire of Ages", I was deeply angered by the statement that Y'shua who IS G-D could have chosen to sin. The "Great Controversy" drove me to despair for my salvation to point I nearly gave up on G-d and became an atheist.

Ellen White did NOT have a "gift". She was ILL, plain and simple. But like I said I do believe she truly loved the L-rd and wanted to serve Him, but she WAS quite ill.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Thanks for the info Lebesgue. I am going to look into this, you can be sure.

It has always been my understanding that the Adventist doctors verified and confirmed what happened, not that they diagnosed the manifestations as medical conditions.

Interesting.

No, I have not yet read Ron's book. But it is definitely on my to-do list! :thumbsup:
 
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Lebesgue

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How on Earth did those exhibitions Enhance God’s word other than to somehow enhance Ellen G White?

Well, can deal with that once we establish wether they actually happened or not.

Who did it benefit?

If they actually took plce, I suppose the ones who needed proof she was who she claimed she was.

Was anyone cured of disease or ailments by it?

Not that I know of.

Those displays were for the benefit Of E G White only and nobody else except to beguile those present.

Well, that is the logical conclusion if you believe she was a pawn of Satan. I don't hold to that.

They remind me of those demonic TV shows where some in the audience are pushed backwards and let down gently to the floor whereupon they are supposedly miraculously healed.

If the incidents took place as eye-witness acounts say they did, the source is dfinitely supernatural in origin.

The question then would be 'which source?'

You have made it pretty clear where you think it came from.

I don’t feel comfortable reading this sort of stuff NE.

Well, I didn't start this thread to comfort anyone. I am looking for answers.

That is a process that I have to undertake for my own reasons, and I cannot let someone else's comfort level dissuade me from that.

As far as I am concerned these sorts of stories are demonic in nature.

Yes, I gathered that much.

Nothing personal about you N E, I like you and the things you write, I just don’t like this sort of morbid stuff about not breathing that’s all I am saying.

I want to ascertain first if they actually took place. Once that is settled in my mind, then I can explore wether it is 'morbid' or not.

Why should any of us be afraid to discuss this issue openly? :confused:

I could ask what next will the S D A brethren be looking at pictures, that sweat blood or vision of mother Mary or statues that cry holy water or blood from the eyes.

That's if they are actually supernatural occurences or if they can be medically explained-which has not yet been established in my mind.

Why can’t S D A's get back to the Bible, don’t they trust the Bible on its own?

Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:

And yes I am sick to death of hearing about E G white because when her name is mentioned most of her supporters misapply Bible texts.

Well, like it or not, it is still an issue for those of us nonTSDA's still in the church. As such, we have to deal with it, like it or not.

I apologize if doing what I have to do offends you and causes you distress though. :(

There are biblical texts which are concerned with the rejection of the Holy Spirit, 'the unpardonable sin' yet E G White supporters imply that those words are applicable to E G white also!

I agree, that is preposterous. Just as preposterous as how the same wording that Scripture uses to describe itself has been used to describe EGW in the Fundamental belief.

But, that is another topic for another time.

I am out of here and the out of the Adventist church for good!

Good grief man, you cannot expect to be on an Adventist forum and not have multiple threads on EGW being discussed! :doh:

Sheesh.

Well, farewell then. :wave:

Night, the telling thing is that AFTER I left the SDA church and became a Messianic, the Pastor of my former SDA church told me to my face, that I had the truth and why did I leave and that I have "hardened my heart like the Jewish people who would not accept Jesus". And all this even though I DO believe in Y'shua and even still keep the Sabbath and the food laws.
Just because I reject Ellen White.

In the 14 years I was an SDA I heard Ellen White's name in sermons FAR MORE than I ever heard about Y'shua.

Ellen was quoted FAR MORE than the Bible in Sermons.

Of course these were traditional SDA churches I attended.

But I got SO FED UP with it that's part of the reason why I left.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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djconklin

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Bro. Anderson got his source on the Jupiter thing from Loughbourough who did write the "vision" down.
While others said what the planets were, Ellen didn't correct them did she?

Loughbourough clearly reported that it was Bates who named the planets--not EGW. So, if Dirk said that EGW named them then he lied.

How could EGW name the planets if she didn't know which one's they were in the first place?

Ellen was quoted FAR MORE than the Bible in Sermons.

Of course these were traditional SDA churches I attended.

Given that you got the above wrong I highly doubt that this is correct. I am in and have been SDA churches that some might consider traditional. The Bible is quoted and used far more often than EGW. After all, we bring our Bible to church not EGW books.
 
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