We were never under the Law

AndrewK788 · Mar 7, 2008

As I've seen so many arguments escalate over the whole issue with the Law and how we are no longer under the Law etc, it made me want to start reading into it more myself. This is what I came up with so bear with me. feel free to disagree though, this is, after all, the debate forum!

I said we were never under the Law. We have always been saved by grace through faith in a Savior. Before Calvary this faith was represented through the sacrificial system, showing us what was to come and what would become of the Savior. That was faith in a savior that had not yet come but was promised. Today, we are still under this same grace, and not the Law, but by faith in a savior that did come.

I could expound on this so much more but I'll save my energy for now and see what everyone's thoughts are to this first.

I will add this though: I in no way am implying that I believe the Law to be void now that we are "living in the NT." I still personally believe in the importance of the Sabbath and I keep it, but my point is we are not, nor ever have been condemned by the Law because it was always faith in the Savior that saved us, even before he died on Calvary. When Jesus mentioned his fulfillment of the Law, it's pretty obvious he was fulfilling the sacrificial laws which had been taking place prior to his coming. He even says in the same breath he did not come to abolish the Law, so where does everyone get off on that idea?

RND · Mar 8, 2008

AndrewK788 said:
As I've seen so many arguments escalate over the whole issue with the Law and how we are no longer under the Law etc, it made me want to start reading into it more myself. This is what I came up with so bear with me. feel free to disagree though, this is, after all, the debate forum!

I said we were never under the Law. We have always been saved by grace through faith in a Savior. Before Calvary this faith was represented through the sacrificial system, showing us what was to come and what would become of the Savior. That was faith in a savior that had not yet come but was promised. Today, we are still under this same grace, and not the Law, but by faith in a savior that did come.

I could expound on this so much more but I'll save my energy for now and see what everyone's thoughts are to this first.

I will add this though: I in no way am implying that I believe the Law to be void now that we are "living in the NT." I still personally believe in the importance of the Sabbath and I keep it, but my point is we are not, nor ever have been condemned by the Law because it was always faith in the Savior that saved us, even before he died on Calvary. When Jesus mentioned his fulfillment of the Law, it's pretty obvious he was fulfilling the sacrificial laws which had been taking place prior to his coming. He even says in the same breath he did not come to abolish the Law, so where does everyone get off on that idea?

I think for the most part you're spot on with your position. The only thing I might question is your take that, "I said we were never under the Law."

No one was ever 'under the law' unless the law was broken. That was the purpose of the old system when the moral law was broken. Trangress the moral law and go to the Mosaic law for remedy. The same is true today except that the 'law' is now written in the heart and their is no more sacrifice for sin...the Lamb of God having been made the last sacrifice to take away the sin of the world. We no longer need to go to a human priest for the remission of sin but straight to our Heavenly priest can take our sin for us.

ricker · Mar 8, 2008

AndrewK788 said:
As I've seen so many arguments escalate over the whole issue with the Law and how we are no longer under the Law etc, it made me want to start reading into it more myself. This is what I came up with so bear with me. feel free to disagree though, this is, after all, the debate forum!

I said we were never under the Law. We have always been saved by grace through faith in a Savior. Before Calvary this faith was represented through the sacrificial system, showing us what was to come and what would become of the Savior. That was faith in a savior that had not yet come but was promised. Today, we are still under this same grace, and not the Law, but by faith in a savior that did come.

I could expound on this so much more but I'll save my energy for now and see what everyone's thoughts are to this first.

I will add this though: I in no way am implying that I believe the Law to be void now that we are "living in the NT." I still personally believe in the importance of the Sabbath and I keep it, but my point is we are not, nor ever have been condemned by the Law because it was always faith in the Savior that saved us, even before he died on Calvary. When Jesus mentioned his fulfillment of the Law, it's pretty obvious he was fulfilling the sacrificial laws which had been taking place prior to his coming. He even says in the same breath he did not come to abolish the Law, so where does everyone get off on that idea?

This is interesting. The Bible does say some are still under the law, whatever that may mean.

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify

20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

We are also told Jesus was "under the law".

4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

I appreciate your imput, but it seems to me some were actually under law, and some were still under law after Christ's death and resurrection. I will leave you with this. Galations 3

24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

I'm sure most here think this is ceremonial law, and you may be right, but it is interesting anyway.
God bless! Ricker

AndrewK788 · Mar 8, 2008

Those who do not accept Christ are under the Law.

juneil · Mar 8, 2008

AndrewK788 said:
Those who do not accept Christ are under the Law.

Is it also right to say THOSE WHO BELIEVE CHRIST WILL DO AND OBEY THE LAW??

AndrewK788 · Mar 8, 2008

juneil said:
Is it also right to say THOSE WHO BELIEVE CHRIST WILL DO AND OBEY THE LAW??

I believe so.

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And ths second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV)

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
John 14:15 (NIV)

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Matthew 5:17, 18 (NIV)

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, righteous and good."
Romans 7:7-12

I included so much in the last text to make sure no would accuse me of taking out of context. I would gladly post all of Romans on here if it wouldn't take up so much space.

God bless!

AndrewK788 · Mar 8, 2008

Ricker,
You mentioned the text where it says Jesus was born under law to save those under law. Jesus was, after all, the sacrifice, taking the world's penalty for sin upon himself. So yes, he was under the law in that aspect. And so was the world, because if they had no saviour, they would die also becuse the law alone condemns, but the blood of Christ redeems.

djconklin · Mar 8, 2008

Lots of good points!

ricker · Mar 9, 2008

AndrewK788 said:
Ricker,
You mentioned the text where it says Jesus was born under law to save those under law. Jesus was, after all, the sacrifice, taking the world's penalty for sin upon himself. So yes, he was under the law in that aspect. And so was the world, because if they had no saviour, they would die also becuse the law alone condemns, but the blood of Christ redeems.

Good point, Andrew. Thanks

Prophecy Countdown · Mar 10, 2008

As long as we keep falling off our perches dead, then we are under the law.

Jimlarmore · Mar 10, 2008

Thanks for this thread and thoughts. The only differing perspective I can add has already been added indirectly and that is this. Salvation, has never been by the law and I think that is what Paul was trying to tell everyone. The law could never save but only point us to the need of a savior. It's the same today as it was back then. Paul said that without the law he wouldn't know what sin was and so it is.

God bless
Jim Larmore

AndrewK788 · Mar 10, 2008

Jimlarmore said:
Thanks for this thread and thoughts. The only differing perspective I can add has already been added indirectly and that is this. Salvation, has never been by the law and I think that is what Paul was trying to tell everyone. The law could never save but only point us to the need of a savior. It's the same today as it was back then. Paul said that without the law he wouldn't know what sin was and so it is.

God bless
Jim Larmore

I thought that's what I pretty much said though.

Maybe I was too vague...that happens a lot lol.

ricker · Mar 10, 2008

AndrewK788 said:
I thought that's what I pretty much said though. Maybe I was too vague...that happens a lot lol.

The only thing I had a problem with is you said we were never under the law. There are many verses saying people were and still are indeed under the law.
If "under the law" only means for salvation, what does that say about Jesus was born under the law, and Paul putting himself under the law when he was with those under the law? To me this is saying "under the law" is meaning something different than "under the law for salvation".
God Bless! Ricker

Lebesgue · Mar 10, 2008

juneil said:
Is it also right to say THOSE WHO BELIEVE CHRIST WILL DO AND OBEY THE LAW??

I agree with you on this, juneil.

As a Messianic, I believe Messiah Y'shua is the LIVING Torah, the Torah made flesh, and part of loving Him is to keep His law.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

AndrewK788 · Mar 10, 2008

Lebesgue said:
I agree with you on this, juneil.

As a Messianic, I believe Messiah Y'shua is the LIVING Torah, the Torah made flesh, and part of loving Him is to keep His law.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Indeed. That is what I believe as well.

AndrewK788 · Mar 10, 2008

ricker said:
The only thing I had a problem with is you said we were never under the law. There are many verses saying people were and still are indeed under the law.
If "under the law" only means for salvation, what does that say about Jesus was born under the law, and Paul putting himself under the law when he was with those under the law? To me this is saying "under the law" is meaning something different than "under the law for salvation".
God Bless! Ricker

I suppose more what I meant is being "under the Law" is a choice of the individual. Even before Christ dying on Calvary, it was not the Law that saved us. The Law always condemned because "all fall short" of God's glory. Living under the Law always meant and will always mean condemnation.

I already mentioned what I thought it meant for Christ to live under the Law. As for Paul, when he placed himself under the Law, it meant he was abiding by the traditional customs of those he was reaching out to, so as not to be a stumbling block to them. In reading the new testament, a lot of this has to do with old levitical laws, or whatever you want to call them.

As far as salvation is concerned, we have always been saved by grace and NEVER by the Law. But in the sense of Paul, I believe it meant he was abiding by the old laws of the Jews that no longer mattered.

So, yes, in that aspect I agree with you. It definitely means something different than salvation when it says Paul lived under the law. But my point was this: salvation was never under the Law. It never was and it never will be. Hope that clears it up!

God bless!

ricker · Mar 10, 2008

AndrewK788 said:
I suppose more what I meant is being "under the Law" is a choice of the individual. Even before Christ dying on Calvary, it was not the Law that saved us. The Law always condemned because "all fall short" of God's glory. Living under the Law always meant and will always mean condemnation.

I already mentioned what I thought it meant for Christ to live under the Law. As for Paul, when he placed himself under the Law, it meant he was abiding by the traditional customs of those he was reaching out to, so as not to be a stumbling block to them. In reading the new testament, a lot of this has to do with old levitical laws, or whatever you want to call them.

As far as salvation is concerned, we have always been saved by grace and NEVER by the Law. But in the sense of Paul, I believe it meant he was abiding by the old laws of the Jews that no longer mattered.

So, yes, in that aspect I agree with you. It definitely means something different than salvation when it says Paul lived under the law. But my point was this: salvation was never under the Law. It never was and it never will be. Hope that clears it up!

God bless!

I agree with what you said about Jesus and about no one ever being saved by the law.
Do you think it is OK to understand the term "under the law" to mean either "under the law for salvation" or "abiding by the traditional customs" depending on context?
God bless! Ricker

AndrewK788 · Mar 10, 2008

ricker said:
I agree with what you said about Jesus and about no one ever being saved by the law.
Do you think it is OK to understand the term "under the law" to mean either "under the law for salvation" or "abiding by the traditional customs" depending on context?
God bless! Ricker

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I would say yes, unless I misunderstand you. One does need to be aware of the difference, because naturally Paul, the man who exclaims in Romans how the Law brought death, would not then try to save himself according to the Law.

The two variations you mentioned shouldn't be used interchangeably of course. But as you said, depending on context, it is usually not to hard to figure out, in my opinion.

God bless!
-Andrew

djconklin · Mar 10, 2008

Do you think it is OK to understand the term "under the law" to mean either "under the law for salvation" or "abiding by the traditional customs" depending on context?

I don't know what you mean by the latter phrase--the moral law is for all man at all times. As for the former since it was never the function of the law to save--but to point out our need for a Saviour then it cannot be that.

ricker · Mar 10, 2008

djconklin said:
I don't know what you mean by the latter phrase--the moral law is for all man at all times. As for the former since it was never the function of the law to save--but to point out our need for a Saviour then it cannot be that.

Andrew said:

As far as salvation is concerned, we have always been saved by grace and NEVER by the Law. But in the sense of Paul, I believe it meant he was abiding by the old laws of the Jews that no longer mattered.

To me Andrew is saying the phrase "under the law" can have two different, distinct meanings, depending on context, that's all. I just wanted to make sure I understood him correctly.
God bless! Ricker

We were never under the Law

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