P. Gerard Damsteegt venerates EGW by making her equal to the Bible

NightEternal

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You guys have got to read this :eek: :

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/articles/ellen_white_and_sola_scriptura

Some excerpts:

* The Reformers saw the need to strip away the layers of error added to the Bible through the “inspired commentary” of the Pope and the traditions of the church. They argued that the Bible should be its own interpreter, and that if any church body was able to control it by claiming to be its sole infallible interpreter, then God's Word would effectively be overruled by the traditions and insights of fallible men. Indeed, the Pope is said to be endowed with “situational infallibility” which allows him—a fallible human—to be totally infallible when it comes to matters of biblical interpretation.

It might come as a surprise that some Adventists claim the same role for Ellen White, and the arguments used in support are quite similar. While her claim for infallibility in the Testimonies is not new (see 8MR 18.1), there has been an effort by church leaders over the years to soften the claims made for her ability to comment on Scripture without error. This was particularly evident during the 1950s when cult expert Walter Martin began an investigation into Ellen White's role in the Adventist church. One of the particular points he questioned church leaders about concerned whether she was an “infallible interpreter of Scripture”, arguing that if she was effectively used this way, she would be functioning no differently than the Pope.

* For Adventists who thought their church was moving away from Ellen White's role as the infallible interpreter of Scripture, the conclusions of this document will come as a surprise.

In his paper, Damsteegt labors to reconcile the Reformation principle of sola scriptura with Ellen White's extra-biblical writings. Under the heading, “The Meaning of the ‘Bible Only’”, he explains in a heavily-footnoted sentence how Ellen White viewed the principle of sola scriptura: “An analysis of Ellen White's use of the phrase ‘the Bible and the Bible only’ reveals that she contrasts it with human ‘views and ideas,’ erroneous traditions on the Sabbath and the Law of God, opinions of scholars, scientists, theologians, ‘sayings and doings of men,’ ‘human wisdom,’ false visions, views of the churches steeped in popular theology from which the early Adventists separated themselves, the ‘religions of fable and tradition,’ ‘imaginary religion,’ ‘a religion of words and forms,’ and ‘tradition and human theories and maxims’.” Damsteegt follows this by stringing together several additional Ellen White quotes, driving home his main point:
“This expression ‘the Bible only’ she [sic] never used for contrasting her own writings with the Bible. In Ellen White's mind there was perfect harmony between the Bible and her writings because ‘the Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and the author of the spirit of prophecy.’ Therefore ‘it is impossible that the teachings of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word.’”
The logic here is simple—if God is the author of Scripture and he also speaks through Ellen White, there cannot be any contradiction between her words and the Bible. While many Adventists have hesitated to make such a sweeping conclusion, Fundamental Belief 18 recognizes Ellen White as “a continuing and authoritative source of truth”, which is essentially the same as Damesteegt's view, albeit more general in nature.
Where this gets tricky for Adventists is in their desire to refrain from calling Ellen White's writings an “infallible commentary” on Scripture because they realize this would put her in the same category as the Pope. But Damsteegt apparently has no trouble doing this in the company of his fellow Adventist theologians behind closed doors, and indeed, this seems to be his whole purpose. Having already placed her (using her own definition of sola scriptura) above the opinions of scholars, scientists, theologians and human wisdom, he says, “This unique relationship between the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy has given the latter (Ellen White) a place above all extra-Biblical sources. Consequently in Bible study, the writings of the Spirit of Prophecy hold a superior position over other research tools” (emphasis mine). In a circular way, Damsteegt quotes Ellen White for support: “it is impossible that the teachings of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word” (Great Controversy, vii), placing her squarely into the role of Scripture's infallible interpreter. Damsteegt is not concluding aything new here, but is merely reiterating the claims Ellen White made for herself. Driving this point home to his Adventist colleagues, he writes, “Theologians have a serious obligation to see that their influence will preserve the unity of the church by upholding its end-time message and mission.” Translation: we need to be unified as theologians behind the idea that the only acceptable theological insights are those which Ellen White has already blessed.

* While both Adventists and Catholics claim the Bible as their infallible rule of faith and practice, both churches ironically look outside the Bible to obtain an infallible interpretation. Rome looks to tradition and the Pope for support while Adventists look to Ellen White. While many Adventists consider such practices out of style or no longer officially promoted, it is clear from Damsteegt's conclusions that it is very much alive and promoted at the highest levels of the Adventist church today.

* Summarizing this situation in his 1988 assessment of Adventism and the role of Ellen White, Kenneth Samples, a Christian apologist and close associate of Walter Martin, wrote, “Unfortunately, many Adventists see the writings of Ellen White as an infallible shortcut to scriptural understanding. Adventists must understand that if they elevate Ellen White to the position of infallible interpreter, then the dramatic irony of the ages has come true — SDA has a Pope.” To the degree that Adventist theologians continue to promote such a view among themselves and the church body believes them, I cannot find grounds to disagree. Just as Catholics must free themselves from the rule of tradition if they are to stand upon the solid ground of sola scriptura, Adventists must contend with the weight of Ellen White's legacy and continued promotion by church leaders who know the price of “Scripture alone” but are unwilling to pay it.

Clearly things have gotten a tad out of control with some of our SDA theologians and professors when things such as Damsteegt's comments are being asserted at the highest levels of the church with impunity. This is absolute nonsense for a church that is supposed to be upholding the Bible and Sola Scriptura as thier rule of faith.

It absoutely chills me to the bone to know Damsteegt is having a role in training our future ministers. Thank God for men like Graeme Bradford who are working to counteract this cultic idiocy.
 

NightEternal

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All is not lost however. Check out Dr. Bacchiocchi's response to Damsteegt's preposterous claims in the comments after the article! :thumbsup:

I e-mailed Dr. Bacchiocchi about these comments and Damsteegt considering his and Bradford's views on EGW.

Here was his reply:

Quote:

Hi:

Thank you for your perceptive comments. Damsteegt is one of those who worships Ellen White like the Catholics worship Mary. He believes that Ellen White is always right and all the historians who disagree with her are always wrong. We had discussions on the Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses. It is a known fact that they did not observe the Sabbath.
It is unfortunate when a few of our teachers want to prove that Ellen White is always right, notwithstanding to contrary clear evidences.

BTW, have any of you listened to the discussions held in colorado at the EGW Summit in 2005? They are very good. Paulien, Knight and two others had two lectures each about the role of EGW, the proper use and abuse of it.

Also, I noticed that there was a conference held by many of the scholars centered around the 50th annivesary of 'Questions on Doctrine'. Apparently even Jan Paulsen was against this because of the strife it might cause. They held it anyway.

Good for them! I'm looking forward to the publications of it. Arther Patrick was one of them. He is a scholar from Avondale who also believes the same as Bradford about EGW.

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/articles/ellen_white_and_sola_scriptura
 
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NightEternal

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I liked this comment after the article and agree wholeheartedly. The Daniell's quote is particularly good:

Ack! I must break my silence here!

The above quotes and dialogue by Damsteegt is very disheartening. However, I do not think it is necessarily fair to judge Sister White's views on her writings to scripture based on today's strict apologists. As many theologians who take Damsteegt's view, there are many who would disagree with him. Bacchiocchi, Knight, Jon Paulien, Graeme Bradford, Alden Thompson, Fritz Guy and many others do not see Sister White's writings on this caliber. Despite some of Sister White's comments that seemed to place her writings as some sort of authority for the church, she was very clear about where her writings stood in relationship to the scriptures and the importance of scripture over her writings. One of the many quotes on this matter from her:

Quote:

"Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God.....(To delegates at a 1901 conference she said...."Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never[sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what 'Sister White Said' [sic]-'Sister White said this,' and 'Sister White said that,' and 'Sister White said the other thing'. But say, 'Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.”

In her last message to the church she held up the bible and said, 'I commend to you this book!'.
Again, like the changing of the FB on EGW to 'an authoritative source of truth' from the original 1931 version, I believe the church is trying hard to cement Sister White's influence into the mind's of the people by being so strict on the matter.

Case in point on the little influence Sister White has on our next generation...In our discussion of EGW in Religion class, only 2 of my 24 students in grade 11/12 had even cracked open a book and were completely unaware of any controversy over EGW. To be more to the point...they really couldn't have cared less!
Perhaps the leaders of the church feel that going so further to the right with their stance on EGW, they will counteract the swing of EGWs influence from the far left where it seems to be heading.
That doesn't mean that they are correct or speak for all the church and it's scholars and theologians.

Quote:
From Greg
In a circular way, he quotes Ellen White for support: “it is impossible that the teachings of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word” (Great Controversy, vii), placing her squarely into the role of Scripture's infallible interpreter. Damsteegt is not concluding aything new here, but is merely reiterating the claims Ellen White made for herself.

This quote from A.G. Daniells at the 1919 GC discussion on the SOP. A.G Daniells knew sister white well for 30 years and helped her on some of her writings. I'm sure he was well aware of the context of any quotes from Sister White speaking about using her works as an interpreter of scripture. This is what he said:

Quote:

It is not our position, and it is not right that the spirit of prophecy is the only safe interpreter of the Bible. That is a false doctrine, a false view. It will not stand. Why, my friends what would all the people have done from John's day down to the present if there were no way to understand the Bible except through the writings of the spirit of prophecy! It is a terrible position to take! That is false, it is error. It is positively dangerous! What do those people do over in Roumania? We have hundreds of Sabbathkeepers there who have not seen a book on the spirit of prophecy? What do those people in China do? Can't they understand this Book only as we get the interpretation through the spirit of prophecy and then take it to them? That is heathenish!

I would rather take Daniells take on the matter, with him knowing Sister's White's views on the matter to still be able to make a comment like this one, then to take Damsteegt's interpretation of it.

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/articles/ellen_white_and_sola_scriptura
 
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NightEternal

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Glorify Him - November 16, 2007 - 23:21

Greg wrote:

Finally, whether Damsteegt has been branded by Bacchiocchi as a worshiper of Ellen White or not, the fact remains that Damsteegt is still a professor at the Adventist seminary. On some level, we must agree that the church tacitly approves of his message if they continue to pay him for his services, knowing that he can teach this message to the next generation of Adventist pastors and theologians.

Hi. I am new here. This is my first post. But I would like to point out that having just come from the Seminary at Andrews .... Damsteegt is not doing much of any teaching there anymore. And MOST students do not take him seriously. For what it is worth.

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/articles/ellen_white_and_sola_scriptura

Well, that's comforting to know...
 
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NightEternal

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I would be interested to know what the general tenor of Andrews is at this moment. Obviously most of the seminary graduates have little use for the hard-core Trad professors such as Damsteegt as was indicated by the fellow in this thread who was actually attending there.

Maybe there is more potential for the new crop of graduates than we thought.

I hope the latest seminarians are at least somehow being formally prepared for the upheaval and controversy over EGW and SDA doctrine they will encounter when they get out in the field. It would be a great disservice and handicap to them if they are not.
 
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Mankin

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*Gasp you e-mail the rock hater Sam Bachiolli himself*:eek:


Lol back on topic. Interesting article. I have read part of Bradford's book More than a Prophet and I must say it is very interesting. I just wonder how inerrant EGW believers can actually defend their position without turning EGW into a pope.:doh:
 
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Lebesgue

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There are people like Damsteegt who are really trying to push EGW.

At the Adventist school my son attends he is taught EGW more than Bible in religion class and his 8th grade Religion book put Ellen on an equal footing with Bible prophets John the Baptist and John the Revelator.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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