False Prophets and Teachers?

The Distinguishing Marks of False Teachers

Thomas Brooks

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." 2 Peter 2:1-3

Satan labors with all his strength by false teachers, which are his messengers and ambassadors, to deceive, delude and forever destroy the precious souls of men. The prophet Jeremiah declared, "And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err." (Jeremiah 23;13). And through the prophet Micah, the Lord himself complained "Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err," (Micah 3.5a). They seduce them and carry them out of the right way into by-paths and blind thickets of error, blasphemy and wickedness, where they are lost forever. Jesus Himself warned, "Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matthew 7:15) These scoundrels lick and suck blood of souls, "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers," (Phil. 3:2) These evil men kiss and kill; they cry, "Peace, Peace" until souls fall into everlasting flames (see Proverbs 7) Now the best way to deliver poor souls from being deluded and destroyed by these messengers of Satan is to display them in their true colors, so that being known poor souls may shun them, and flee from them as hell itself. Now you may know a false teacher by the following distinguishing marks.

1. The first distinguishing mark is that they are men-pleasers. They preach more to please the ear than to profit the heart. Isaiah thus described the longing of God’s rebellious people. "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:" (Isaiah 30:10). And again the Lord complained through Jeremiah in these words; "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means, and my people love to have it so and what will ye do in the end thereof?" (Jer 5.30,31) These men handle the holy things rather with wit and entertainment than with godly fear and reverence. False teachers are soul-destroyers. They are like evil surgeons, that skin over the wound, but never heal it. Flattery destroyed Ahab and Herod, Nero and Alexander. False teachers are hell’s great enrichers. It is not bitter, but flattering words which do all the mischief, said Valerian, the Roman emperor. Such smooth teachers are sweet soul-poisoners (Jeremiah 23:16,17)





2. The second distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they are notable for casting dirt, scorn and reproach upon the person, names, and credits of Christ’s most faithful ambassadors. Thus Korah, Dathan, and Abiram charged Moses and Aaron that they took too much upon themselves, seeing all the congregation was holy (Numbers 16:3). "You take", they said, "too much state, too much power, too much honor, too much holiness on you; for what are you more than others, that you take so much upon you?" And likewise Ahab’s false priests fell, upon good Micaiah, paying him with fits and fists instead of a reasonable reply (see I Kings 22 10-26). Yes, even Paul, that great apostle of the Gentiles, had his ministry undermined and his reputation blasted by false teachers: "For his letters," they say, "are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible." (2 Corinthians 10:10). They rather despise him than admire him; they look upon him as a dunce rather than a doctor. And indeed the same harsh treatment had our Lord Jesus from the scribes and Pharisees, who labored as if their life depended on it, to construct their own esteem upon the ruins of His reputation. And never did the devil have a more prosperous business in this way than he does in these days ( Matthew 27:63). Oh, the dirt, the filth, the scorn that is thrown upon those of whom the world is not worthy! I suppose false teachers fail to consider that saying of Augustine "He that willingly takes my good name unwillingly adds to my reward"

3. The third distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they spew out the devices and visions of their own heads and hearts. The Lord said to me. "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name I sent them not, neither have commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." (Jeremiah 14:14). "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord." (Jeremiah 23:16). Are there not multitudes in this nation whose visions are but golden delusions, lying vanities, brainsick fantasies? These are presently Satan’s great benefactors, but one day divine justice will hang them up in hell as the greatest malefactors, unless the physician of souls graciously delivers them.

4. The fourth distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they easily pass over the great and weighty things both out of the law and the gospel, and dwell mostly upon these things that are of the least importance and concern to the souls of men. Thus Paul warned Timothy: "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. Desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." (I Timothy 1:5-7). And our Lord rebuked the Pharisees: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees. hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).



False teachers are meticulous in the lesser things of the law, and quite negligent in the greatest! Once more the Apostle Paul spoke strong words to Timothy when he said: "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself" (I Timothy 6:3-5). If such false teachers are not genuine hypocrites, I know nothing (Romans 2:21.22). The earth groans to bear such wicked men, and hell is fitted for them.

5. The fifth distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they cleverly disguise their dangerous principles and soul-deceiving notions with very attractive speeches and golden statements. Many in these days are bewitched and deceived by the magnificent words, lofty strains- and stately terms of deceivers, such as illumination, revelation, and deification. As harlots paint their faces and adorn and perfume their beds, the better to allure and deceive simple souls, so false teachers will put a great deal of paint and garnish upon their most dangerous principles and blasphemies, in order that they may better deceive and delude poor ignorant souls. They know that sugared poison goes down sweetly: they wrap up their pernicious, soul-killing pills in gold. In the days of Hadrian the emperor, there was a man Ben-Cosbi who gathered a multitude of Jews together, and called himself Bencocuba, the son of a star, applying the promise of Numbers 24:17 to himself, but he proved to be Bar~chosaba, the son of a lie. And so will all false teachers, for all their lofty statements will prove at last to be the sons of lies.



6. The sixth distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they strive more earnestly to win men over to their opinions, than to improve their behavior. The Lord Jesus again spoke with soberness when He said "Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matthew 23:15). They busy themselves, most about men’s heads. Their work is not to better men’s hearts and mend their lives; and in this they are much like their father the devil, who will spare no pains to gain converts.



7. The seventh distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they exploit their followers through covetousness. The Apostle Peter, nearing his own death (see 2 Peter 1:12-15), warned his followers: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall he evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." (2 Peter 2:1-3). They eye your goods more than your good; and care more for serving themselves, than the saving of your souls. So long as they have your possessions, they care not that Satan possess your souls (Revelation 18:11-13). In order that they may better pick your pocket, they will hold forth such principles as are very indulgent to the flesh. False teachers are the great worshippers of the golden calf, as the Lord declares: "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness, and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely" (Jer.6: 13). Now by these seven distinguishing marks you may know false teachers, shun them and so deliver your souls out of their dangerous snares.

"Many False Prophets (?)"

Larry Ray Hafley



Are there truly "many false prophets" who "are gone out into the world"? Jesus said there would be "many false prophets" who should arise "and deceive many" (Matt. 24:11). The Holy Spirit made a similar statement (1 Jn. 4:1). As Peter said, "there were false prophets" among the people of the Old Testament, and even so "there shall be false teachers among you" (2 Pet. 2:1).
But how can this be? If, as many people believe, everyone's religion is equally valid and acceptable, how can there be "any" false prophets, let alone "many false prophets"? The fact that the Bible says there shall be "many false prophets" implies that not everyone's religion is pleasing before God.

Even in his own day, the Lord Jesus did not receive the worship of each person. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 7:21). "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men .... Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up. Let them alone; they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch" (Matt. 15:8, 9, 13, 14). The "blind leaders" were false prophets, false teachers.

Again, that "false prophets" exist is indicative of the fact that not all religions, not all "belief systems," are approved of God (2 Cor. 11:13-15; Rev. 2:2). Why do some say we may serve God according to the dictates of our own conscience? If all religious concepts of faith are equally valid, why did John say to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God" (1 Jn. 4:1)? Why say that if it does not matter "in what" or "in whom" you believe?

Since there are, as the Spirit of God says, "many false prophets," are there not also "many false religions" (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6)? That being so, what of your faith? What of your religion? Is it of God or of man (Isa. 8:20)? "Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

Spiritual Authority: The Word and the Testimony
by A.W. Tozer, 1950

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ... 2 Pet. 2:1

Whatever it may be in our Christian experience that originates outside of Scriptures should, for that very reason, be suspect until it can be shown to be in accord with them.

If it should be found to be contrary to the Word of revealed truth no true Christian will accept it as being from God. However high the emotional content, no experience can be proved to be genuine unless we can find chapter and verse authority for it in Scriptures. "To the word and to the testimony" must always be the last and final proof.

Whatever is new or singular should also be viewed with caution until it can furnish scriptural proof of its validity. Thoughout the twentieth century quite a number of unscriptural notions have gained acceptance among Christians by claiming that they were among truths that were to be revealed in the last days.

The truth is that the Bible does not teach that there will be new light and advanced spiritual experiences in the latter days; it teaches the exact opposite! Nothing in Daniel or the New Testament epistles can be tortured into advocating the idea that we of the end of the Christian era shall enjoy light that was not known at its beginning.

Beware of any man who claims to be wiser than the apostles or holier than the martyrs of the Early Church. The best way to deal with him is to rise and leave his presence!

Originally posted by Anthony
Just the Names

Just post their names and a short description of their doctrine. You're going to loose me in the details.

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I believe one has to determine what are the parameters to examine false teachers, false prophets, false messengers and the false religious movements that are birthed by these individuals.

I as a Christian, believe these individuals and their cults and/or religious movements need to be tested against Orthodox Christian Doctrine contained within God's Holy Word.

I suggest if you have interest in learning about the various founders of religious movements and/or cults that you might want to start by getting a good reference book written by Christian authors that hold to Orthodox Christian Doctrine.

I have several resource books pertaining to this subject matter.

One book I utilize often is, Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions by John Ankerberg & John Weldon.

There are several informative Christian Apologetic Ministry Websites that examine in great depth the nature of religious movements and/or cults and their founder(s).

Yes Anothny it is sad. Honestly, based on what the Bible teaches, the heart of this is the fact that so few people read the Bible like the Bible tells them to. People wonder why they don't see God, or why they aren't growing or why they have doubts. Well its because they don't read the word. Romans 10:17 says "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" I think a bigger part of this issue with the word, is so many churches do not hold to the fact that "All scripture is of divine inspiration" (2 Tim 3:16). Some cult or even what some would consider "CHrisitan" denominations say in their articles of faitgh that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Other churchs simply are lead by pastors (maybe some of these "false teachers") that do not hold to the infalliblity of the word of God.

Originally posted by gunnysgt
"Many False Prophets (?)"

Larry Ray Hafley


Again, that "false prophets" exist is indicative of the fact that not all religions, not all "belief systems," are approved of God (2 Cor. 11:13-15; Rev. 2:2). Why do some say we may serve God according to the dictates of our own conscience? If all religious concepts of faith are equally valid, why did John say to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God" (1 Jn. 4:1)? Why say that if it does not matter "in what" or "in whom" you believe?

Since there are, as the Spirit of God says, "many false prophets," are there not also "many false religions" (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:4-6)? That being so, what of your faith? What of your religion? Is it of God or of man (Isa. 8:20)? "Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

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I agree with Larry Ray Hafley. Since you posted this, I presume that you agree with Hafley either, right?

Then, why don't you prove your own self gunnysgt? What is your religion? Is it of God or of man (Isa. 8:20)? 

Jesus SAID: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Matt. 7:5)!

Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
I agree with Larry Ray Hafley. Since you posted this, I presume that you agree with Hafley either, right?

Then, why don't you prove your own self gunnysgt? What is your religion? Is it of God or of man (Isa. 8:20)? 

Jesus SAID: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Matt. 7:5)!

Ed

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Well Ed, I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the Author of my Salvation, The I AM, The Alpha and the Omega, the Only name unto Salvation, The Truth, The Way and the Life. The Spotless Lamb of God who shed His blood for the redemption/remission of my sin.

Jesus did not come to the world to start another religion, He came to die for the sins of the world.

edward.... you are the one involved in false teaching... as you have been shown in numerous other threads. You are still avoiding the the latest of these.

Who is the author of life ed???

take care

FOW

Originally posted by gunnysgt
The Distinguishing Marks of False Teachers

Thomas Brooks

1. The first distinguishing mark is that they are men-pleasers. They preach more to please the ear than to profit the heart. These men handle the holy things rather with wit and entertainment than with godly fear and reverence. False teachers are soul-destroyers. They are like evil surgeons, that skin over the wound, but never heal it. Flattery destroyed Ahab and Herod, Nero and Alexander. False teachers are hell’s great enrichers. It is not bitter, but flattering words which do all the mischief, said Valerian, the Roman emperor. Such smooth teachers are sweet soul-poisoners (Jeremiah 23:16,17)

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I totally agree. Now, test yourself with the following questions.

1. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) One is saved by "faith ALONE" or b) One is "justified by WORKS and NOT by faith ONLY?"

2. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) Once saved ALWAYS saved" or b) "he who ENDURES to the END will be saved?"

3. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) ALL of us will be saved or b) Not everyone will be saved?

4. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) We HAVE attained salvation already or b) We WILL attain salvation WHEN Jesus comes?

5. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) Baptism NOT necessary for salvation or b) One needs to be baptized to be saved?

6. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) Membership in a church is NOT necessary to salvation or b) One NEEDS to be a member of the TRUE church to be saved?

7. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) God ACCEPTS  all services rendered to him or b) NOT all services rendered to God is acceptable to Him?

8. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) ALL religions are ACCEPTABLE to God or b) There is ONLY one TRUE religion that is ACCEPTABLE to God?

9. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) The NAME of the church one belongs to is IMMATERIAL or b) There is ONLY one name of a church that is ACCEPTBLE to God?"

10. What is MORE pleasing to the ear: a) A preacher does NOT have to be a messenger SENT from God or b) ONLY a messenger SENT from God CAN preach?

2. The second distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they are notable for casting dirt, scorn and reproach upon the person, names, and credits of Christ’s most faithful ambassadors. Yes, even Paul, that great apostle of the Gentiles, had his ministry undermined and his reputation blasted by false teachers: "For his letters," they say, "are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible." (2 Corinthians 10:10). And indeed the same harsh treatment had our Lord Jesus from the scribes and Pharisees, who labored as if their life depended on it, to construct their own esteem upon the ruins of His reputation.

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I totally agree. Haven't you noticed that those who cater primarily to what "itching ears" want to hear are great at calling some religious leaders names and declaring them heretics? These FALSE teachers totally DISREGARD Jesus' ADMONITION for them to fiurst remove the plank from their own eyesBEFORE they attempt to remove the speck from other's eyes.

3. The third distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they spew out the devices and visions of their own heads and hearts. The Lord said to me. "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name I sent them not, neither have commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." (Jeremiah 14:14).

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I totlly agree. How many times have you heard people say that they TALK to God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit in their dreams? This is ONLY in their heads. These FALSE teachers FAIL to realize that the ONLY way to talk to God regarding His PLANS and INSTRUCTIOS is through His WORD - the Bible.

4. The fourth distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they easily pass over the great and weighty things both out of the law and the gospel, and dwell mostly upon these things that are of the least importance and concern to the souls of men. And our Lord rebuked the Pharisees: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees. hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).

False teachers are meticulous in the lesser things of the law, and quite negligent in the greatest! Once more the Apostle Paul spoke strong words to Timothy when he said: "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself" (I Timothy 6:3-5). If such false teachers are not genuine hypocrites, I know nothing (Romans 2:21.22). The earth groans to bear such wicked men, and hell is fitted for them.

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How true! Most people are TAUGHT that TITHING and the LOVE of fellowmen is MORE weighty than KNOWLEDGE of the TRUE God and DOING His WILL.

5. The fifth distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they cleverly disguise their dangerous principles and soul-deceiving notions with very attractive speeches and golden statements. Many in these days are bewitched and deceived by the magnificent words, lofty strains- and stately terms of deceivers, such as illumination, revelation, and deification. As harlots paint their faces and adorn and perfume their beds, the better to allure and deceive simple souls, so false teachers will put a great deal of paint and garnish upon their most dangerous principles and blasphemies, in order that they may better deceive and delude poor ignorant souls. They know that sugared poison goes down sweetly: they wrap up their pernicious, soul-killing pills in gold. In the days of Hadrian the emperor, there was a man Ben-Cosbi who gathered a multitude of Jews together, and called himself Bencocuba, the son of a star, applying the promise of Numbers 24:17 to himself, but he proved to be Bar~chosaba, the son of a lie. And so will all false teachers, for all their lofty statements will prove at last to be the sons of lies.

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I totally agree! Look at Swaggart and Baker. They were very eloquent speakers and people LOVED to hear them talk. But where did these people end up? And let's NOT forget Billy Graham who spoke openly of his love for Jews BUT secretly talked AGAINST them during the Nixon era.

6. The sixth distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they strive more earnestly to win men over to their opinions, than to improve their behavior. The Lord Jesus again spoke with soberness when He said "Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matthew 23:15). They busy themselves, most about men’s heads. Their work is not to better men’s hearts and mend their lives; and in this they are much like their father the devil, who will spare no pains to gain converts.

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I totally agree. Observe your priests, eveangelists and pastors and look at their behavior.  Are they truly good examples of what a TRUE Christian should be?

7. The seventh distinguishing mark of false teachers is that they exploit their followers through covetousness. The Apostle Peter, nearing his own death (see 2 Peter 1:12-15), warned his followers: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall he evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." (2 Peter 2:1-3).

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I totally agree. Look at all the HERESIES that have SUPPLANTED the TRUTHS for so many centuries since apostle Paul died. And as far as covetousness is concerned, it is NO secret what PRIESTS and PASTORS face in courts for their SEXUAL abuses and GREED for material wealth.

Now by these seven distinguishing marks you may know false teachers, shun them and so deliver your souls out of their dangerous snares.

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Examine your own self gunnysgt. Does your religion fall into any of these characteristics?

Ed

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
edward.... you are the one involved in false teaching... as you have been shown in numerous other threads. You are still avoiding the the latest of these.

Who is the author of life ed???

take care

FOW

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Tell me what "author of life" means fow before I post my reply in the appropriate thread. I don't see how this question is pertinent to this topic.

BTW, one of the characteristics of a FALSE teacher is labeling on as a FALSE teacher WITHOUT offering PROOF to support the statement. And you are doing just that.

Ed

lol... really??

well ed... thats why I am asking you who the author of life is. Who is the author of life? Simple question. Like the author of a book is the one who wrote the book, so the author of life is the one who created it.

who is this?

Originally posted by gunnysgt

Originally posted by edpobre
<B>I agree with Larry Ray Hafley. Since you posted this, I presume that you agree with Hafley either, right?

Then,&nbsp;why don't you prove your own self gunnysgt? What is your religion? Is it of God or of man (Isa. 8:20)?&nbsp;

<B>Jesus SAID:</B> <I>"Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Matt. 7:5)!</I>

Ed

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</B>

Well Ed, I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the Author of my Salvation, The I AM, The Alpha and the Omega, the Only name unto Salvation, The Truth, The Way and the Life. The Spotless Lamb of God who shed His blood for the redemption/remission of my sin.

Jesus did not come to the world to start another religion, He came to die for the sins of the world.

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I am NOT asking whether or not you have a personal relation with Christ. I asked what your religion is gunnysgt.&nbsp;Why do&nbsp;you&nbsp;keep EVADING&nbsp;my question? Are you ashamed to say you are either a Catholic or a Protestant? If you are a Church of Christ member, why are you ASHAMED to say it?

Anyway, since we are talking about FALSE teachers, let us examine&nbsp;the WORDS that&nbsp;Jesus&nbsp;have SPOKEN&nbsp;(according to him, what he said was a COMMAND from God - John 12:49), then tell our readers: a)&nbsp;WHAT Jesus is, and b) WHO the only true God is, okay?

1. "...ME, a MAN" (John 8:40);

2. "...that they may know YOU (referring to the Father), the ONLY true God..." (John 17:3,1);

3. "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 20:28);

4. "I and the Father are ONE" (John 10:30);

5. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" (John 14:9);

6. "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (Rev. 1:11).

My answer to question a) is: Jesus is a MAN; and my answer to question b) is: the Father is the ONLY true God.

What's yours gunnysgt? Our readers are waiting!

Ed

&nbsp;

hey ed, I enjoyed your post about what is more pleasing to the ear. There's just one thing you mentioned:

I totlly agree. How many times have you heard people say that they TALK to God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit in their dreams? This is ONLY in their heads. These FALSE teachers FAIL to realize that the ONLY way to talk to God regarding His PLANS and INSTRUCTIOS is through His WORD - the Bible.

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God can really talk to us through any means He chooses to. I believe where the deception comes into play, is being able to discern what is from God and what isn't. I would say that many false&nbsp;teachers are tricked by Satan into thinking that a message is from God but realy isn't.

I saw Greg Laurie once and I wasn't too impressed. He was loud and emotional and just seemed "fake" for lack of better words. Here's a list of who fundamentalists believe are all false teachers:

-James dobson

-John MacArthur

-Greg Laurie

-Billy Graham

-Dave Hunt

-Charles Stanley

-Neil Anderson

-Chuck Swindoll

-Chuck Smith

-Miles McPherson

-T.D. Jakes

-David Jeremiah

-Jack Hayford

-Paul Chappel

Please note that this is&nbsp;the fundamentalist's list, but this doesn't exclude anyone from possibly being a false teacher. When I saw Greg Laurie, he really candy-coated Christianity and made it very attractive. Now I'm not saying that this is totally misleading, but he left out the other side..He left out the personal side. He didn't balance his boisterous words with the gentle love that Jesus would have, and that's what really put me off.

..and I have a feeling that alot of these guys are the same way.

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
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Posted by edpobre: "I wonder if Einstein would agree to this "out of space" equation!"

I wonder if you have read 1 cor. chapter 1. God says that he delights in the fact that man finds Himself as foolishness.
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Posted by edpobre: "You really are FORCING a square peg into a round hole Ben. How can Jesus, a SEPARATE personality, be ABSOLUTE God when he does NOT know EVERYTHING the Father knows?"


Got something for you here ed... look this up.

Revelation chapter 19:12

take care

FOW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


Ed... who is the Lord of Glory?

scroll down








1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
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Posted by edpobre: “The Lord of Glory is Jesus. Don't you know that God MADE Jesus LORD? Read Acts 2:36.”

Here ed… you are contradicting every part of: I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)

What does the LORD say ed? He says that He will NOT do what you are saying He did. Explain that one. Of course… that is unless they are one in the same (which they are)

Posted by edpobre: “If you THINK God the Father BECAME Jesus because of YOUR interpretation of these verses, then answer me HONESTLY fow, who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1”

Here ed… lets let everyone read this and see what they see… how about it?

“The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

You ask: “Who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1?” Your dimensional understanding does not limit the Father ed. He is the LORD of LORDS… He is the Alpha and the Omega… the Beginning and the End… the First and the Last… He is the Living God who says that there are no others but Him. He is the Savior… He is the Redeemer. All of these things Christ claims as well.

However… you say that God made Him these things… and that He gave all of this to Christ. Ah ha, but ed… that contradicts the very character of God… He says that He will NOT give these things to another… He says that there are no others but Him. Therefore Christ is God the Father who TOOK the nature of a man, out of His own Love… He says that He made HIMSELF a man… no one else did this to Him. God did not make… some sub-god a man… He made HIMSELF a man. This is the Father to whom the one who came from the Father prayed to during the time that He made Himself nothing.

Posted by edpobre: “While it is true that Jesus (the MAN into which the WORD that was God BECAME) is the WORD of God”

You say that the Word is God… and that it came into a man. However, God says that The “He” (the “He” that you refer to as a mere man) was with God in the Beginning. So, basically… the “Word was God” refers to this “He” who was with God in the Beginning.

(In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.)

Posted by edpobre: “show me a scripture which says that <I>Jesus WAS the WORD</I> that was God <I>BEFORE he WAS born.</I>”

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Posted by edpobre: “Apostle Paul SAID: there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)”

Here… I will post the verse for you ed: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and from whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

First of all… read the verse… tell me… do you think that this verse is saying that they are two different beings? It is not… Furthermore… this does explain exactly what we have been discussing here. God the Father had to fulfill His covenant. He had to become the ultimate sacrifice for man… you want to see this in the Bible? >>> Here you go: The Bible says, (Hebrews 9:16-17), In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Through what was man made (as the verse indicates)? I say that it was through Love that God created us. (Remember through Him all things were made that have been made: John 1) Also, 1 John 4:9—“This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him.” 1 John 4:19—“We love because He first loved us.” I also know that God is love (1 John 4:8 and 4:16) This “Love” whom He is… desired to become our sacrifice: (Remember… the greatest love is willing to lay down his own life for his friend)… Importance on “HIS OWN.” You may say… God will not make Himself nothing therefore being able to sacrifice Himself. Why ed? Is God unwilling to do this? Is He too self-seeking to allow Himself to become humble and submit Himself to death? How would this be if Love is not self-seeking, and God is Love? (1 Corinthians 13:5)

Therefore: From an earlier post---When God made Himself a man... it was love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. (Which is why you see Him in subservience to the Father) This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendable love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Posted by edpobre: “Sure, God and Jesus are BOTH Alpha and Omega. They BOTH said "I am the Alpha and the Omega." But that does NOT make them ONE God. Alpha and Omega does NOT mean the same to God as it means to Jesus.”

Really… according to whom ed? Are you now speaking for Christ… saying what He is and is not? I simply believe what He says. I believe what He says to me through His Spirit. And I believe what He says in His word. I do not try to twist things around as you do. And if you say you haven’t, then answer all of the questions pertaining to Isaiah 42:8

Posted by edpobre: “Show me the verse that says "God MADE Himself a MAN.”

Well ed… Christ, in the word of God, says that He made HIMSELF nothing. The word does not say some separate being made Him nothing… it says He made Himself nothing. You seem to indicate that God gave some other being everything indicated in the above posts (coming with info straight out of the word)… The problem is that God HIMSELF says that He will NOT do exactly what you say He did. Here-- The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Posted by edpobre: “Earlier, you said that God the Father BECAME Jesus Christ. Now you are saying that Christ BECAME subject to God the Father.”
Well ed… the Bible says that the Word (who was God) became flesh. It is the flesh (who was God) that became subservient to the very God (the only God) from whom He came.

Posted by edpobre: “ Christ will SUBJECT himself to HIM (meaning God) who placed ALL things under his feet (1 Cor. 15:28). Finally, God will again become "Lord of Lords."

You say “again” meaning that there was time when He was not… a time where it was Christ. However, this again contradicts the nature of God. He says that HE WILL NOT give His glory to another. Yet Christ is the Lord of Glory. This can only mean that Christ is the same as the one who spoke this: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

The fact is ed, that you are indeed wrong. You have allowed darkness to pervert what God says. Believe Him ed!

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
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