Goats, Bullocks and rams, oh my! Sources of Dan 8 imagery

tall73 said:

Some years back Doukhan noted that the animals in Daniel chapter 8 are markedly different from those in chapter 7. All of the animals in chapter 7 are unclean animals--lion, bear, leapord, and the indescribable beast. But the animals in chapter 8 are clean, sacrificial animals--goat and ram. This underscores the sanctuary setting of chapter 8.

These animals also suggest two possible sources of imagery involving a restoring/cleansing of the sanctuary. I was reading in a fairly recent dissertation at Andrews when I came across this interesting information.

Here are the two possible sources of imagery:

1. Day of Atonement
The day of atonement sacrifices included rams and goats, and also a cleansing of the sanctuary:


Lev 16:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
Lev 16:13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
Lev 16:14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
Lev 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
Lev 16:18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Lev 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
Lev 16:6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

2. Hezekiah's Cleansing ritual

During the time of Hezekiah we also see a service that includes rams and goats and involves a cleansing of the temple.


2Ch 29:3 He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD, and repaired them.
2Ch 29:4 And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street,
2Ch 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place.
2Ch 29:6 For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
2Ch 29:7 Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.
2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end.
2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof.
2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.


Both involve the same animals and deal with cleansing of the temple. Interestingly both also involve OTHER animals besides the ram and goat. The ritual of the day of atonement also included a bull. The ritual of Hezekiah had lambs and bulls.


So the question is which is closer to the scene painted in Daniel 8? Which one is the likely source of imagery (if indeed either are)?

Here is the portion of the vision of Daniel 8 dealing particularly with the sanctuary and its cleansing:


Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


The defilement in Daniel 8 is due to an imposition by the little horn power. It casts down the place of the sanctuary and took away the daily sacrifice.

The question of Daniel 8:13 asks how long will all this defilement last? Daniel 14 gives a termination date, the sanctuary will be cleansed from the defilement of the little horn after 2300 days.

Now the cleansing in Lev. 16 was from sin, uncleaness and transgression. It was not a cleansing from pollution as such but a cleansing from sin. It was not due to an outside force defiling the temple as much as the sins of the people.

The cleansing in 2 Chronicles under Hezekiah also was as a result of the sins of idolatry and neglect, though primarily on the part of the priests and the kings. And it had a more tangible element. The temple was literally restored physically and defiling elements were cast out. In other words it had been polluted. The temple had been defiled by Ahaz who had cast out the vessels of the sanctuary. It had collected unclean elements (perhaps idols) that could be removed. It was then reconsecrated.

So in Daniel is the emphasis primarily on cleansing from the sins of the people or on cleansing from pollution and outside defilement?

The answer seems to be that the temple was defiled by the little horn. The cleansing of the temple in verse 14 is the response to the question--how long the trampling?, etc.

The story of Hezekiah seems to be a somewhat closer parallel to Daniel 8 than Leviticus 16 is. The defilement is the result of pollution, not the sins of the people. It is in this case from an outside source, the little horn, not the sins of God's people directly.

Therefore it is not necessary to see day of atonement allusions in Daniel 8's cleansing. It is from a named power--the little horn that is opposed to God's people--not from the sins and uncleaness of God's people themselves.

Click to expand...

very interesting.

Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and IT CAST DOWN some OF THE HOST AND OF THE STARS TO THE GROUND, and stamped upon them.”

Interesting that we are told that the dragon does the same in Revelation 12: 3. “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

I believe the ‘little horn’ is Satan/dragon.

4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did CAST THEM TO THE EARTH: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

Also it is interesting that in Daniel 8: 11, the word ‘Sacrifice’ was added by the translators. It should read ‘the place of the daily was taken away.’
The word sacrifice was not found in verses 11, 12 and 13 within the ‘Ancient Sea Scrolls.’
I suppose that’s why within the King James Version the word sacrifice is in italics regarding those verses.

Daniel 8: 11.Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Dan 8; is connected to Rev 11: 2.

Rev 11: 2. “But the COURTwhich is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”

The place of the daily; is the outer court.

Daniel 8: 12. And an host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Six and a part years is as long as the chezev/visions will last this span is called ‘the time of the end.’

When looking at Daniel 8: 21 And the rough goat is the king of ‘GRECIA:’ and the great horn that is between his eyes is THE FIRST KING.

Unfortunately the interpreters were biased toward an historic view of
Daniel, so they took the word ‘YAVAN’ and translated it as quote ‘GRECIA,’ which completely misses the point of Daniel 8.
3120 Yavan { yaw-vawn’}

probably from the same as 3196; TWOT - 855;

AV - Javan 7, Grecia 3, Greece 1; 11

GK - 3430 { ÷w:y:
Javan = “Ionia” or “Greece”
n pr m
1) a son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
n pr loc
2) Greece, Ionia, Ionians
2a) location of descendants of Javan

If we look it is not difficult to work out that the rough goat YAVAN 3120, is from the West and is made up of Westerners.

Genesis 10: 4. And the sons of JAVAN; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5. BY THESE WERE THE ISLES OF THE GENTILES DIVIDED in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, IN THEIR NATIONS.

Back in Daniel 8: 5. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat CAME FROM THE WEST on the face of the whole earth, and TOUCHED NOT THE GROUND: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

If we go back to the overview of Daniel 7 we can recognize certain powers the lion being Great Britain and the eagle’s wings is the alliance being the United States of America THE NUMBER ONE KING OR POWER. AS mentioned in Daniel 8: 21 ‘first king.’

Daniel 7 in verse 4 “The first was like a LION, and had EAGLE’S WINGS: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

When Alexander The Great attacked the Medo/Pesrsian Empire in 331BC he did so on the Arbella Plains over 1000 miles away from the clearly stipulated geographical location within the vision being the ‘Ulai river’ which is now called the Karun river in Iran.

Also Gabriel said this about the TIME of the vision in verses 17 and 19.

Daniel 8: 17. “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.”

19. “And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: FOR AT THE APPOINTED THE END shall be.”

So to me the Alexander interpretation is set at the wrong time and location and the description is of Westerners coming of course across the planet from the West a vast area not touching the ground until the rough goat beats the ram down by the Ulai river speaks of modern warfare and when the USA/British alliance breaks up the LION/Britain will lose His EAGLE"S WINGS/USA and be made to stand alone.

Just thought I would concern myself with those few verses of Daniel 8; that were quoted, but there is so much more in Daniel that pulls the Bible together from the Old and New Testament Prophets.