Bartholomew and the Pope meet again

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jckstraw72

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did anyone hear about this? the EP went to the Vatican today and supposedly prayed with the Pope.

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople spent almost half an hour speaking privately March 6 before going into a small Vatican chapel to pray together.

Although it was the patriarch's first visit to the Vatican since Pope Benedict's election and the funeral of Pope John Paul II in April 2005, the visit was not a formal, orchestrated affair.

The pope and the patriarch did not exchange speeches, but instead sat across a table from each other talking.

And instead of participating in a liturgy, they walked into the tiny Chapel of Urban VIII near the papal library, stood in front of a painting of the Nativity and prayed silently.

After a few moments, the two began reciting the Lord's Prayer in Latin. When the prayer was finished, the pope turned to his guest -- as if to see if he was ready to leave -- and the patriarch began reciting the Hail Mary in Latin. The pope joined in.

When the prayer was finished, the two turned to their aides and together blessed them.






Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew held their first formal meeting in Turkey in 2006 and met for less formal discussions in October in Naples, Italy.

The patriarch was in Rome to help mark the 90th anniversary of the Jesuit-run Pontifical Oriental Institute, where he earned his doctoral degree.

The patriarch delivered a lecture on "theology, liturgy and silence," focusing on how the spiritual experience of Eastern Christianity can promote Christian unity and respond to the needs of modern men and women.

Patriarch Bartholomew praised the Oriental Institute's commitment to promoting the study of the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches and its contributions to Christian unity, particularly by highlighting the Eastern tradition in the heart of the Catholic Church.

"The church fathers were primarily pastors, not philosophers," he said. "They were concerned first with reforming the human heart and transforming society, not with refining concepts or resolving controversies."

The patriarch said that at the center of their pastoral work was a recognition that humanity is "called to know and to become God," the call to holiness which the Orthodox term "deification."

When Christians keep in mind the possibility that every human being and all of creation can be transformed in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, then they will meet every person and every situation with an attitude of awe and anticipation rather than judgment or fear, he said.


Patriarch Bartholomew said the Orthodox tradition calls for silence and humility "before the awesome mystery of God, before the sacred personhood of human beings and before the beauty of creation."

He told students and professors of the Oriental Institute and several Vatican officials, "We must at all times be prepared to create new openings and to build bridges, ever deepening our relationship with God, with other people and with creation itself."

The patriarch also said theologians and pastors would benefit by remembering that the early church fathers, recognized by both Orthodox and Catholics, "never perceived theology as a monopoly of the professional academic or the official hierarchy."

"Orthodoxy," he said, "was the common responsibility and obligation of all."

And, he said, the liturgy -- a communal celebration -- was the place where the community learned, expressed and strengthened its faith.

"Whereas the gradual development in the West of a juridical source of authority led to an understanding of liturgical rites more as external signs, Eastern Christianity visualized liturgy as an authoritative criterion of faith and ethics," seen, for example, in the practice of quoting liturgical texts in support of a theological argument, the patriarch said.

The importance of the community of believers in liturgy and in determining orthodoxy, he said, needs to be reaffirmed today because "no individual can ever exhaust the fullness of truth in isolation from others, outside the communion of saints."

Patriarch Bartholomew said it also is essential that as Catholics and Orthodox work toward restoring their unity neither should undertake "provocative initiatives" in ministry, apparently echoing the concerns of some Orthodox churches, particularly the Russian Orthodox Church, about the re-establishment of Catholic dioceses in traditionally Orthodox regions.

END

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service


if this is true i find it quite troubling.
 

Rick of Wessex

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VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople spent almost half an hour speaking privately March 6 before going into a small Vatican chapel to pray together.

[...]

After a few moments, the two began reciting the Lord's Prayer in Latin. When the prayer was finished, the pope turned to his guest -- as if to see if he was ready to leave -- and the patriarch began reciting the Hail Mary in Latin. The pope joined in.

[...]

Patriarch Bartholomew praised the Oriental Institute's commitment to promoting the study of the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches and its contributions to Christian unity, particularly by highlighting the Eastern tradition in the heart of the Catholic Church.

[...]

"Orthodoxy," he said, "was the common responsibility and obligation of all."


"Whereas the gradual development in the West of a juridical source of authority led to an understanding of liturgical rites more as external signs, Eastern Christianity visualized liturgy as an authoritative criterion of faith and ethics," seen, for example, in the practice of quoting liturgical texts in support of a theological argument, the patriarch said.

[...]

Well, let's see...

1) His Holines Bartholomew prayed with an heterodox religious leader (which is no different from the anglican or Coptic primate, for instance).

2) He prayed the Hail Mary? :eek:

3) He also said that Uniatism is contributive to Christian unity. What the...?

But at least he said that Orthodoxy is "an obligation of all" (and I hope that this affirmation means that every heterodox should return to the Church).

His comments about the Liturgy are also very much true.

But to tell the truth, this kind of behavior really gets me confused... the Vatican pope already said that only the Vaticn Church is the true Church (Ratzinger's words) and that we, Orthodox, are at best a schismatic and deficitary "tradition".

Why His Holiness Bartholonew wastes his time with these actions - actions that scandalize many of the faithful and gives schismatic fanatics the excuses they need - is beyond my understanding.

This article got me thinking: Could The Patriarch Of Constantinople Fall Into Schism?


On the other hand, these hierarchs make me feel hopeful:

Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus' letter


and:


Interview of Bishop Artemije of Raska and Prizren to daily Danas

(related part translated from serbianpolicy site)

http://srpskapolitika.com/Tekstovi/Analize/2008/003.html

Q: It is well-known you aren't an ecumenist. What is your opinion about the Ravenna statement adopted by members of joint theological commission of Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church.

A: Why wouldn't we say the other way – I'm against ecumenism because I think such a fashion of ecumenism is damaging the purity of Orthodox Faith and will not lead to the healthy union of Christians, than to dilution of the Orthodox Faith and weakening the piousness of the Orthodox Christians. Though Ravenna Document is available, the hierarchy of the Serbian Orthodox Church have not been officially informed by those present in Ravenna what happened there, what was signed, what the paper actually means and what competencies and to whom it offers. In any case, I think that the fashion that some representatives of Serbian Orthodox Church, regardless empowered or not, signed on our behalf something without the authorization of the Council or Synod, is not binding to anyone in Serbian Orthodox Church, as long as it didn't pass through the meeting of the Holy Council.

Q: Generally speaking, what's the attitude of SOC about the primacy of Bishop of Rome, although the Ravenna Statement isn't explicit if it was primacy of honor only, or of authority, too.

A: It is absolutely unacceptable to any Orthodox soul, not only for the entire SOC, since when we speak about Papal primacy we know it is only one of the reasons causing Roman Catholic Church to apostate from the Church of Christ in 1054. Among the other, never have the Bishop of Rome had the primacy in the Orthodox Church in the sense that's been applied by Roman Catholics today and tried to be imposed on everybody else. As the Bishop of Rome, he had the primacy of honor for the significance of the city where he resided, which was the capital of the Empire in Christ's time, the entire known world of that time. We cannot even speak about the issue of honor today, because he is not a bishop of the Church until the unity in Faith is achieved. The unity in faith between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox is still very distant.

Q: One could conclude there are various theological views within Orthodoxy about co-operation with RCC, since Orthodox theologians participated in the works of Joint-Commission while the document has been harshly criticized by their brothers.

A: There exist only those persistent in their exposition of Faith and those ready for various kinds of compromise and economia. Many Orthodox participants at those ecumenical gatherings are not confessors of their faith, accordingly, they can't represent the teaching of the Orthodox Church. If they were really representatives of the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Faith, they would, above all, listen to the Apostle Paul whom says: “stay away from a heretic upon first and second approach”. How long are we going to attend those dialogues, commissions – until eternity? Are we counseling there those in heresy, in error? No, we are seeking the compromise with them. True love of a Christian is to provide eternal life to a neighbor, meaning one needs to say straightforwardly and frankly that another one is in error and try to get him back to the truth and direct him to the path towards salvation. Approving someone to remain in his error is not love, it is hatred of a man, according to St. Maximos the Confessor.

Q:If you say that the unity can be reached only if another party repents, Roman Catholics say that “nobody is sinless” - how could that be solved?

A: Nobody is sinless in the sense of personal sins, but in the sense of confession of the Faith, the Orthodox Church have erred nothing. That's the Church of Apostles, Church of the Fathers, Church of Ecumenical Councils, holding the truth once delivered by Lord Christ, through the Apostles which was delivered to us unhampered, while there is no doubt that Roman Catholic Church in many segments of Faith and particular dogmas is away from the right path. Without the unity in Truth, in true Faith, is not possible to speak about the Bishop of Rome at all, even less about his primacy – either of honor or of authority.

Q: How could Orthodox know they erred nothing?

A:From the history of Church, from the teaching of the Holy Fathers, Holy Canons, Ecumenical Councils. It isn't an arbitrary allegation, than the continuity through two thousand years, proving this is the Faith preached by Lord Christ and Holy Apostles.
 
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jckstraw72

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there's nothing theologically wrong with the prayer, the problem is that a heirarch of the one true Church would choose to pray with a heretical bishop using a prayer from the heretical tradition rather than from THE Tradition.
 
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Andrew21091

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What is wrong with Hail Mary? I pray the Hail Mary.

The Orthodox Church uses it also but its wording is slightly different. It is ok to say the prayer but it's the fact that he prayed it with a heretic that is bothersome.

Orthodox version: Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne Christ the Saviour, the Deliverer of our souls.

Catholic version: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
 
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Philothei

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[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is strange to contrast the two viewpoints - that of the Orthodox Churches, represented by Metropolitan Kyrill and the Orthodox, and the Uniat viewpoint, represented by the present Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople and his little band of supporters. The former view is now expressed in terms of faith and moral authority by the Russian Church (alone representing some 75% of all Orthodox Christians), closely supported by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, as well as the Serbian, Bulgarian, Georgian, Polish and Japanese Churches and the Holy Mountain (officially under the Patriarchate of Constantinople). The latter view is expressed by those in the Phanar in Istanbul and a tiny and ageing group of intellectuals, concentrated in Helsinki, Paris, Oxford and Washington. [/FONT]



He is up against the wall I think he is using the Pope for protection as he is in a hostile mulsim country... soon to become Europe.... I would not worry about it...:scratch: i better go to sleep early tonight feeling kind of sleepy.. We got bigger fish to fry...
:yawn:
 
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Rick of Wessex

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Dear Philotei,

He is up against the wall I think he is using the Pope for protection as he is in a hostile mulsim country...

I agree with you... the main motivation behind this "ecumenism" is to attract international attention to the plight of Orthodox Christians living under the heels of the Turkish dictatorial government.

However, there are other means (in my opinion) of doing this without resorting to such actions... History gives an example in the pseudo-Council of Ferrara-Florence.

In XC,
Rick
 
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Philothei

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Dear Philotei,



I agree with you... the main motivation behind this "ecumenism" is to attract international attention to the plight of Orthodox Christians living under the heels of the Turkish dictatorial government.

However, there are other means (in my opinion) of doing this without resorting to such actions... History gives an example in the pseudo-Council of Ferrara-Florence.

In XC,
Rick
There is not going to be another council like that ... I guarantee you that much... or there will be a schism...I hope he does not drag us with him... hehehe there is always the MP... that would be their biggest obstacle...and the majority of the Orthodox body...
 
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Khaleas

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http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11703&size=A

The comments about the Russian church being isolationist are really getting to me. Being conservative and protective of change to tradition is what exemplifies Orthodoxy.
“In the Eastern Church, especially in the Russian Church, there is a degree of insularity that leads to conservatism. There is an inability to face the challenges of the modern world, with tradition as an excuse,” Metropolitan Ioannis said.
The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met Benedict XVI today, said that “the true value of tradition is only reached when we can reshape our tradition. Tradition as the Christian Church’s message does not mean doing nothing; instead it contains truth’s momentum and does not fear the challenge of the contemporary world.”

Our little Russian church in Baltimore has gotten an influx of Greeks lately. In the past year we've added about 15 Greeks (which of course isn't much in the Greek community but it's a big addition to our church) and the reason they come is that they feel that their church is getting to modern. We have a Greek couple who drive over an hour to our church because they just can't deal with the changes going on (their church would be 20 mins away otherwise). A few of these families are one Greek, one convert American, but most are Greek married to Greek so I'm pretty sure the step is quite big to take.
But to say that preservation of tradition is not taking the changing world into account. That way saved Christianity from being wiped from the earth so I would not count out traditionalism and protectiveness.
What is sad is that this how is many in the US view the Greeks as inwards and overprotective of their 'Greekness'.
 
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ArmyMatt

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what I think makes this all the more disturbing, is that the EP is praying with a guy who prayed facing Mecca in a mosque. personally, I don't want to give Rome any handhold they can use in their ecumenist agenda for any reason, even if it might seem a political need. but that's just me.
 
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