Denial of the Trinity doctrine

hello edward... I find it somewhat humerous that you did not address the post ed... are they things that you did not want to attempt to twist because you knew it would be an obvious effort on your part?

Posted by edpobre: "You are saying that Christ is God the Father who BECAME Christ and Christ BECAME subservient to HIMSELF being the Father, right? Thus, when Christ lifted his eyes to heaven and SAID, "Father, the hour has come..." (John 17:1), he was ACTUALLY praying to himself, he being the Father, right? And he was also crying out to himself on the cross when he said, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Your belief is FALSE fow. Christ CAME as a HUMAN being and anyone that says he CAME as God the Father who BECAME a MAN has the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ (1 John 4:1-3)."


According to you. You have no way of proving how it is 'false', and acctually... I have proven that your's is. You seem to think it impossible for God to take the nature of man... and come to earth in the flesh as He did indeed do. I notice that you conveniently never address a certain aspect of Hebrews... but we will get to that later.


Posted by edpobre: "Look at Hebrews 9:14 fow. It says, "Christ offered HIMSELF unblemished TO God. If Christ were God, there would be TWO Gods which is NOT what the Bible teaches."

Once again... only in your view does it mean there are two of anything. Christ obviously took off the 'robe' of being God to take on the 'robe' of sin. He submitted Himself to God, from whom He came (get it... whom He was, from whom He came), to be able to sacrifice Himself for us. Here is the Hebrews aspect ed... In Hebrews... the verse is posted in the other posts... it says that the sacrifice was necessary because the covenant could not go into effect until the ONE WHO MADE IT was still living. I ask you ed!!! WHO MADE THE COVENANT!!!???

Posted by edpobre: "Did you read Acts 2:36? Doesn't it say that God MADE Jesus both "LORD and Christ?"

Ed... you are not grasping what took place. Do you think that God... once He took the nature of man... made Himself nothing... now being the Christ... could He do anything on His own??? No... The Father... (remember...from whom He came)... did indeed make Him Lord. The Christ... was nothing, remember? (Made HIMSELF nothing phil 2) And furhermore... this again contrasts Isaiah 42:8...

Posted by edpobre: "How can God and Jesus be the SAME"

Simple... they must be according to God's word: (Hebrews 9:14,16-17) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Did God not Make the covenant ed?

Posted by ed: "John 14:5-10 does NOT tell us that Jesus is God the Father"

According to you ed... but lets see what others see if they read it huh?
The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."


Posted by ed: "The "HE" refers to the MAN that the WORD of God turned into. The WORD has NO gender fow, just to let you know.
Rev. 19:13 refers to Jesus. Jesus is the MAN that the WORD turned into (the WORD became Jesus, remember?). Thus, Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. This is NOT what I am asking for."

Really... well this 'man' was with God in the beginning... through this 'man' all things were made... and without Him NOTHING was made that has been made. This 'man' was given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Would this not be an example of God giving His glory to 'another'. Do you not claim that Christ is 'another' If He is not God (as you claim), then He would be 'another'... and this would not be 'glory'... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS??? HE IS GOD who became like a man... took our nature.

This 'man' is described here ed... lets let others see what it says... they should be able to tell since God is not the author of confusion: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Posted by ed: "But anyone can see that everything you have posted so far are TWISTED interpretation of Isaiah 48:2."

Really ed??? Well lets get a post of that verse on down here... here we go: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

now you state they are two different things... yet... God makes Christ... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the Lord of Glory... Thomas cries out to Him 'my Lord and my God'... the Prince of Peace... the Redeemer... the Holy One of Israel... In Hebrews the Father says about the Son... "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever."

If they are two different beings as YOU state... then God is indeed giving His glory to another... those titles are diety are they not? But this would contradict God's own words.

The fact is that Christ is indeed God who became like man... making Himself nothing... God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God... Yet Christ is also called God by God.
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ed... I do care for you, but you have to believe if you want to see. God became like man... became subservient even to death... to become our sacrifice. In doing so, He gave up the ability to do things from His own power, but instead became like a man... and had to place His trust in the Father. God, (who became like a man in Christ), also retained being God. This also must be true, because God will not stop being God either. Therefore, because of His love (through which all of us were created) He became our sacrifice. This means that He had to do what is described above. The Son of God is God who became like man. Simple, and yet so complex! All of the verses in the Bible that you have given and the have been given by the field guy are in line with this. However, it is the Spirit that testifies to the truth, and He is whom I have been listening. God is love, and Christ is God who through His love became like man to die for us. Believe it. If Christ were just a man... none of the verses posted here below would be able to be true. They would all be examples of God giving His glory to another. You claim that by God giving His glory to 'a man' (another) He was in fact glorifying Himself. But, that is not what God said... He did not say He would give it to another because it was going to come back and glorify Him. He DID say that He would not give it away... period! Here are some facts for you. And your claims about John 1 are completely self-fabricated. God was not trying to trick people when He breathed those words into existence. The words clearly indicate that the Word is this "He" who is being spoken of, who was God and became flesh. Take care:


1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
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About the Spirit:

1) John 4:24--"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

2) 2 Cor 3:17-18--"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

3) Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."------- Same as Spirit of God------Acts 2:4--All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit...------ Joel 2:28--"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people...

4) John 14:15-17--"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (notice Christ says that the Spirit lives with them already... yet has not been given to them yet... hmm... who does this indicate the Spirit is as well) Matthew 28:20--"and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." The Spirit is within us... and Christ says... "I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

5) 1 Cor 2:10- --but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Originally posted by Hank
To find truth one asks questions. As much as one has the option to post and ask question the one being asked has the option not to answer.

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That does not respond to my post! You jumped into a discussion where I was replying to false information concerning Constantine posted by Pobre, with more false information of your own, which I have been responding to. Then you want to complain about the thread being off topic. If you didn’t want to discuss Constantine then why did you search the web for information and post it?

Jesus also said to Peter in the same breath: Matthew 16:19(NIV) “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Is there anything, other the fact that Christ spoke those words on earth, compelling Peter to start building a church?

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Does this question have a point? There is something called the New Testament, have you read it, Matt 28:19, for example?

I quote Jesus Christ once more Matthew 6:19-21 (NIV)
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.”
Christ teachings aimed predominantly towards heaven not earth; whilst He spoke on earth. Peter raised the dead through Christ and performed other healing miracles, do we have this sort of thing happening nowadays?

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Irrelevant to the point I have been discussing! There is no doubt that faithful believers will be rewarded. Many passage attest to that. Is there or is there not a church on earth, established by Jesus Christ? But wait a minute, JWs believe that only 144,000 will be in heaven.

You keep trying to imply that the church Jesus built upon the rock was a heavenly institution. Is Jesus talking about Christians on earth taking their disagreements with one another to a heavenly institution?

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If you would be so kind and show me the connection between St. Peter and the history of your Church this would help here.

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What are you talking about? I have said nothing about “my” church. I have been talking about the church that Jesus Christ built upon the rock against which the gates of hell cannot prevail.

Read Hooker again. Here we have a powerful ruler becoming a Christian. I quoted  two distinct problematic scriptures for Constantine. Even without Hooker; we both have to accept the simple fact Constantine was an emperor. We also have the Bible. I honestly can not phantom why you need further valid, historical, documentation to understand the predicament Constantine was in.

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You have not shown any relationship or connection between Constantine and the passages you quoted. And one more time I will say this. You quoted somebody, his name is irrelevant. Quote a hundred it matters not. Not you. Not me. Not nobody can write anything worth reading about any historical event or person unless they quote, reference, cite, paraphrase, etc., etc., etc, some historical record, document, etc., etc., etc. written at or near the time of the events/persons, by someone who was in a position to have first hand knowledge of those events/persons. Since you have not provided any such information, about Constantine, any presuppositions, assumptions, presumptions, you have posted about Constantine are absolutely meaningless.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion about Constantine, or any other historical figure, read/post some information of the type I stated. What you have posted thus far has no more relevance or validity than The Arabian Nights Maybe you want to talk about Harry Potter and the Book of Daniel?

Now how asinine do you think I am to reiterate your believe in the trinity I reject. If you think the Bible shows trinity just explain it.

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I did! 1 John 5:7.

You can not be a devout Jew and believe in Christ. What Thomas said was when he was a devout Christian. How Jews address G-d is not applicable here. Thus Thomas confirmed what Jesus said of Himself.
John 5:20(NKJV)
”For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.”

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”You can not be a devout Jew and believe in Christ.” Absolute utter garbage! I know devout Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. All you are doing is spouting anti-Christian nonsense without one bit of proof or evidence. Thomas was not quoting John 5:20. As I said, read the Greek. Thomas called Jesus “My God”, in direct address.

I know nothing about Greek. I do trust other God fearing scholars who translated the scriptures though.
One witness is the answer however. The passage refers to
(KJV)”For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.[record in heaven] - [] added by me.

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”. . .and these three are one.[record in heaven] - [] added by me.” You’re right you know nothing about the Greek, just as I know nothing about your native language. And there are no JW scholars who know anything about the Greek either. This last line says it all for me. If the scripture doesn’t agree with what you believe, rewrite the scriptures. As you have clearly indicated you have to add the words, ”[record in heaven]”, which are not stated or implied anywhere in the Greek, to make the passage say what you want it to. If you want to discuss the Bible then discuss the Bible not your additions and alterations.

I quote St. Peter Acts 3:13-15 (NKJV)
“The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.”
Here St. Peter referred to the God of the Israelites which raised Christ from the dead. What/Who was raised and how did that get back into trinity? I hope not too asinine for you.

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I said it once. Anyone can prove almost anything they want by quoting one or two verses out-of-context, or in your case asking an asinine question about one out-of-context verse. You quite evidently do not have the faintest idea what the Trinity is and I don’t have the time or inclination to educate you. Go read a couple of books on the Trinity then you might be able to ask a relevant question.

I will give you the same answer, just like Thomas said, Jesus is “My Lord and My God” (John 20:28) and “Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.” (Heb 13:8) Now what part of that do you not understand?

Originally posted by OldShepherd
That does not respond to my post! You jumped into a discussion where I was replying to false information concerning Constantine posted by Pobre, with more false information of your own, which I have been responding to. Then you want to complain about the thread being off topic. If you didn’t want to discuss Constantine then why did you search the web for information and post it?

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Where did I complain? I simply wrote: “I am questioning the Great Persecution and the motives from Constantine. Both have little to do with trinity.” If it helps I withdraw “Both have little to do with trinity”.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Does this question have a point? There is something called the New Testament, have you read it, Matt 28:19, for example?

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The passage reads (NIV) “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
Even if I never have had read the NT, does that passage pertain to Peter and him building a church?

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Irrelevant to the point I have been discussing! There is no doubt that faithful believers will be rewarded. Many passage attest to that. Is there or is there not a church on earth, established by Jesus Christ? But wait a minute, JWs believe that only 144,000 will be in heaven.

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This passage is relevant. Jesus said that He is building a heavenly kingdom for us, since He is building or has built His kingdom in the heavens, what Church on earth are you referring too?

Originally posted by OldShepherd
You keep trying to imply that the church Jesus built upon the rock was a heavenly institution. Is Jesus talking about Christians on earth taking their disagreements with one another to a heavenly institution?

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No, I am trying to find out what church you are referring too!

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

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Once more what/which Church

Originally posted by OldShepherd
What are you talking about? I have said nothing about “my” church. I have been talking about the church that Jesus Christ built upon the rock against which the gates of hell cannot prevail.

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And I said this Church is in Heaven! Christ rules in Heaven, He is God is He not? You insist this Church to be on earth, thus for the last time which church are you referring too?

Originally posted by OldShepherd
You have not shown any relationship or connection between Constantine and the passages you quoted. And one more time I will say this. You quoted somebody, his name is irrelevant. Quote a hundred it matters not. Not you. Not me. Not nobody can write anything worth reading about any historical event or person unless they quote, reference, cite, paraphrase, etc., etc., etc, some historical record, document, etc., etc., etc. written at or near the time of the events/persons, by someone who was in a position to have first hand knowledge of those events/persons. Since you have not provided any such information, about Constantine, any presuppositions, assumptions, presumptions, you have posted about Constantine are absolutely meaningless.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion about Constantine, or any other historical figure, read/post some information of the type I stated. What you have posted thus far has no more relevance or validity than The Arabian Nights Maybe you want to talk about Harry Potter and the Book of Daniel?

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I showed, starting with only two biblical verses Constantine’s predicament. Since in your own posts accept the existence of Constantine and that he was an emperor, I do not even have to show proof he existed. You accept the King James Bible. Since you do, I again do not have to show proof of the validity of that Bible. Ergo my argument stays!

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I did! 1 John 5:7.

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Catholic
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm
Evangelical
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1JOHN+5&language=english&version=NIV
disagree with your version of Greek as I pointed out!

Originally posted by OldShepherd
”You can not be a devout Jew and believe in Christ.” Absolute utter garbage! I know devout Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. All you are doing is spouting anti-Christian nonsense without one bit of proof or evidence. Thomas was not quoting John 5:20. As I said, read the Greek. Thomas called Jesus “My God”, in direct address.

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You should go into a Synagogue and ask the Rabbi about this Messianic Jew idea. If he is nice he will sit down with you and explain the contradiction, or at least give you a brochure about this subject.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
”. . .and these three are one.[record in heaven] - [] added by me.” You’re right you know nothing about the Greek, just as I know nothing about your native language. And there are no JW scholars who know anything about the Greek either. This last line says it all for me. If the scripture doesn’t agree with what you believe, rewrite the scriptures. As you have clearly indicated you have to add the words, ”[record in heaven]”, which are not stated or implied anywhere in the Greek, to make the passage say what you want it to. If you want to discuss the Bible then discuss the Bible not your additions and alterations.

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See my links above. It is not my addition; it’s from two Christian institutions. One is the Catholic Bible and the other is an Evangelical translation the New English Version bible. They both believe in trinity and they both simply accept trinity, and they too have Greek Scholars pondering over the Bible.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I said it once. Anyone can prove almost anything they want by quoting one or two verses out-of-context, or in your case asking an asinine question about one out-of-context verse. You quite evidently do not have the faintest idea what the Trinity is and I don’t have the time or inclination to educate you. Go read a couple of books on the Trinity then you might be able to ask a relevant question.

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as I wrote before I grew up in trinity. Then I started asking, as you say, asinine question.

The discussion has ended for me, permit me to close quoting King David (irrespective on how we view God)
Psalm 91:1-2 (NIV)
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD , "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."

Hank... read through my dialogue with ed... then come to the table again

take care

FOW

Originally posted by Hank
The passage reads (NIV) “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
Even if I never have had read the NT, does that passage pertain to Peter and him building a church?

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You keep talking about Peter building a church and I keep talking about the church that Jesus built. We are not communicating!

This passage is relevant. Jesus said that He is building a heavenly kingdom for us, since He is building or has built His kingdom in the heavens, what Church on earth are you referring too?

No, I am trying to find out what church you are referring too!

Once more what/which Church

And I said this Church is in Heaven! Christ rules in Heaven, He is God is He not? You insist this Church to be on earth, thus for the last time which church are you referring too?

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I quoted Matthew's gospel, Jesus told His followers if a brother sinned against them to take the matter to the church, if they hear not the church they would be as publicans and sinners. This heavenly church you keep talking about, how does someone take a dispute with a fellow Christian to to that church and how do they hear that church?

The word "church" occurs seventy nine times in the N.T.. Most of those speak of the church here on earth. So far I have quoted the first two occurences of the word "church" from the N.T. Here is the third and fourth.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Acts 2:47 could go either way. But do you want to tell me how "great fear came upon the whole church" in heaven? Now do you see why I will not play your childish games and answer your asinine question.

I showed, starting with only two biblical verses Constantine’s predicament. Since in your own posts accept the existence of Constantine and that he was an emperor, I do not even have to show proof he existed. You accept the King James Bible. Since you do, I again do not have to show proof of the validity of that Bible. Ergo my argument stays!

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You did indeed post two verses but not one single word to show how they might pertain to Constantine. I saw no connection and you did not explain one.

Catholic
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm
Evangelical
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1JOHN+5&language=english&version=NIV
disagree with your version of Greek as I pointed out!

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Not my version! That is what you fail to grasp. I quoted from recognized historical documents dated 180 and 220 AD. 1 John 5:7 as I quoted it is quoted in those documents.

You should go into a Synagogue and ask the Rabbi about this Messianic Jew idea. If he is nice he will sit down with you and explain the contradiction, or at least give you a brochure about this subject.

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Oh you mean those nice Rabbis who call Jesus a "b#stard" and Mary a prostitute? Messianic Jews consider themselves every much a Jew as the most so-called orthodox.

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  Jesus of Nazareth

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  It ought also to be added that many of the legends have a theological background. For polemical purposes, it was necessary for the Jews to insist on the illegitimacy of Jesus as against the Davidic descent claimed by the Christian Church.
  
  The earliest authenticated passage ascribing illegitimate birth to Jesus is that in Yeb. iv. 3. The mysterious phrase ("that man") cited in this passage as occurring in a family register which R. Simeon ben Azza is said to have found seems to indicate that it refers to Jesus (see Derenbourg in "R. E. J." i. 293), and here occur also the two expressions so often applied to Jesus in later literature- ynwlp ivya—(= "that anonymous one," the name of Jesus being avoided) and rzmm (="b#stard"; for which in later timeswtwa ivya was used). Such a family register may have been preserved at Jerusalem in the Judæo-Christian community.
  
  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J

See my links above. It is not my addition; it’s from two Christian institutions. One is the Catholic Bible and the other is an Evangelical translation the New English Version bible. They both believe in trinity and they both simply accept trinity, and they too have Greek Scholars pondering over the Bible.

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The words you added "record in heaven" do not appear in either one of the links you posted. As I said you want to discuss scripture then let's do it, not your additions and alterations to make it fit your presuppositions, assumptions, and presumptions.

as I wrote before I grew up in trinity. Then I started asking, as you say, asinine question.

The discussion has ended for me,

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If you grew up in the Trinity then you should be able to correctly state what the Trinity is. So far you have not done that. You have been talking about something you call the Trinity but its not like anything I know. Your leaving? Goodbye!

Originally posted by OldShepherd
You keep talking about Peter building a church and I keep talking about the church that Jesus built. We are not communicating!

I quoted Matthew's gospel, Jesus told His followers if a brother sinned against them to take the matter to the church, if they hear not the church they would be as publicans and sinners. This heavenly church you keep talking about, how does someone take a dispute with a fellow Christian to that church and how do they hear that church?

The word "church" occurs seventy nine times in the N.T.. Most of those speak of the church here on earth. So far I have quoted the first two occurences of the word "church" from the N.T. Here is the third and fourth.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Acts 2:47 could go either way. But do you want to tell me how "great fear came upon the whole church" in heaven? Now do you see why I will not play your childish games and answer your asinine question.

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LOL I keep asking what Church you are referring too, and you are avoiding my question, plus now you're telling me that I am playing childish games?!? - You originally asked me to furnish information of something I am not aware of.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Oh you mean those nice Rabbis who call Jesus a "b#stard" and Mary a prostitute? Messianic Jews consider themselves every much a Jew as the most so-called orthodox.

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Well they, the Messianic Jews, are in troubled waters from both viewpoints.
Christ said that you can not serve two masters; and the Israelites have been warned by God for millennia not to worship any foreign gods.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/index.html

You either follow God the way the Jewish doctrine tells you to do or you must ignore their teachings and follow the teachings of Christ! There is no in between; since they sharply contradict, as your own link clearly points out.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
If you grew up in the Trinity then you should be able to correctly state what the Trinity is. So far you have not done that. You have been talking about something you call the Trinity but its not like anything I know. Your leaving? Goodbye!

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Yes, I am leaving the discussion of trinity. I can not be the one explaining trinity and questioning it at the same time.

(Just curious, why would you expect to be asked questions about trinity in accordance to the doctrine of trinity from someone rejecting trinity?)

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Hank... read through my dialogue with ed... then come to the table again

take care

FOW

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I have the flue and it is getting worse, too old I guess, so it may be a while with the table thing

Originally posted by Hank
LOL I keep asking what Church you are referring too, and you are avoiding my question, plus now you're telling me that I am playing childish games?!? - You originally asked me to furnish information of something I am not aware of.

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I have answered your question. The church that Jesus, not Peter or any other disciple, built upon the rock. The church here on earth which is referred to about 70 times in the N.T.. For example epistles to the "Church at" Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, Galatia,, etc., the seven churches in Revelation and about 29 other named churches in the N.T. And you claim you have never heard of them?

Well they, the Messianic Jews, are in troubled waters from both viewpoints.
Christ said that you can not serve two masters; and the Israelites have been warned by God for millennia not to worship any foreign gods.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/index.html

You either follow God the way the Jewish doctrine tells you to do or you must ignore their teachings and follow the teachings of Christ! There is no in between; since they sharply contradict, as your own link clearly points out.

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Who made you a judge over the Messianic Jews? They are not worshipping foreign gods.

Yes, I am leaving the discussion of trinity. I can not be the one explaining trinity and questioning it at the same time.

(Just curious, why would you expect to be asked questions about trinity in accordance to the doctrine of trinity from someone rejecting trinity?)

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False once again. See you can't even read, comprehend, and reply to what I say. Not according to the Trinity doctrine but if you are going to discuss the Trinity with me or any other Trinitarian then discuss what we believe not your made up, garbage that none of us ever heard of. And as a matter of information I have never encountered an anti-Trinitarian who can or will discuss what Trinitarians actually believe. Never! Not one! And so far you are no exception.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I have answered your question. The church that Jesus, not Peter or any other disciple, built upon the rock. The church here on earth which is referred to about 70 times in the N.T.. For example epistles to the "Church at" Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, Galatia,, etc., the seven churches in Revelation and about 29 other named churches in the N.T. And you claim you have never heard of them?

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Old Sheppard wrote:
Do you remember reading where Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it?" Where is the history of that church? You imply that the history of the church that Jesus built was falsified.

This was your original question. To give a history of anything one must identify the subject. There are over possible 2000 Christian Denominations, all having their own brand of history. (Talk about falsefied)

I quote St. Peter

1 Peter 2:4-10 (NKJV) Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” and  "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Jesus' Rock, St. Peter, is crystal clear, is he not? We are all part (a building block if you will) of His (Christ’s) spiritual church, when found worthy. For this there is no history per se. If you're aksing me about the history of the Roman Catholic Church I can give you an overview. If you want the history of the Greek Orthodox Church, again I can give you an overview. Etc! But for the Church of Christ, I am lost without knowing what denomination you are refering to.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Who made you a judge over the Messianic Jews? They are not worshipping foreign gods.

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Who is judging? According to Jewish doctrines, Christ is not their Messiah, this is a very much a fundamental thing. Thus if you are a Jew you can not denounce Christ and then turn around and say I am saved by Christ. You can browse the link I gave; it explains that in great detail.
Try to look at it this way. We do not have Buddhist for Christ or Hindus for Jesus or Islamic Christians. Those doctrines clash with Christian's as much as Judaism does.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
And as a matter of information I have never encountered an anti-Trinitarian who can or will discuss what Trinitarians actually believe. Never! Not one! And so far you are no exception.

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[/B]

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Oh, that I did not know! When my fever is gone, I'll have a go at it

Hank, I'm not sure if you have read any of the ongoings between myself and edpobre... If you have... you have not addressed them, even though they are pertaining to the exact same subject as the one you are currently engaged in with OldShepherd. Here is another good one... read through, and see what you see!

Posted by edpobre: "[Isaiah 37:16 says the Lord God CREATED heavens and earth. Isaiah 46:9 says there is NO other God besid Him. Isaiah 63:16 identifies the Father as the oinly one God. Isaiah 64:8 identifies the Father as rhe "potter" meaning the CREATOR. Malachi 2:10 identifies the Father as the ONLY creator.]"

Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.

take care

Here are the verses that go along with it... take care!


1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

gunnysgt said:

Denial of the Trinity doctrine

The Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Trinity doctrine (that of God being three in one), saying that their Jehovah God is only one god, and that the Trinity doctrine is polytheism, belief in plural gods. Denial of the Trinity is essentially the basis of Arianism, which was a heresy condemned by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

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I see your opening proof for the validity of trinity is to call someone a heretic. typical.

gunny said:

The Bible teaches about the Father, Son and Spirit being separate entities but as one. The Jehovah's Witnesses' favourite scripture to try and disprove this is Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (KJV). In the original Hebrew text, the word used for 'one' (pronounced 'ehath') is the number one, and exactly the same word is used in Genesis 2:24 "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united with his wife, and they become one" (GNB) regarding marriage where the husband and wife are seen as 'one flesh'; in other words as a composite unity. Therefore Deuteronomy 6:4 does not exclude or disprove the Trinity, but in fact shows that more than one person in the form of a composite unity) is being referred to.

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you are teaching that 3 beings are one being. a contradiction. since god never contradicts himself your doctrine has to be wrong.

gunny said:

One example of how the Jehovah's Witnesses have changed the original Greek scriptures to support their beliefs is John 1:1 "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god" (NWT - capitalisation intended). God is not The Word; The Word is just 'a god'. Their use of A GOD rather than just GOD suggests the existence of more than one god - polytheism, the very thing they accuse the rest of Christianity of with the Trinity doctrine - therefore this suggests that their 'Jehovah' is not THE God but just one of the gods.

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3 possibilites, God is indefinite (JW) God is definite (Trinity) or God is qualitative (Moi) as in The car is red. red qualifys car and tells something about it, likewise "the word was God.' God qualitfys word and tells soemthing about it.

gunny said:

To again disprove their teaching with their own Bible, their favourite quote of Isaiah 43:10 in full in their translation says "'You are my witnesses' is the utterance of Jehovah, even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One" (NWT), refers to the "servant whom I have chosen", Jesus; and about Him, Jehovah (God) says that "I am the same One" - Jesus and Jehovah (God) are the same. Their own translation shows that Jesus and God are as one!

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well their translation is wrong t hen.

gunny said:

Matthew 28:19 says "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" [NIV]. The Bible clearly teaches 3 distinct persons in one and is most easily compared to water, which as we all know can come in three distinctly different forms (solid=ice, liquid=water, gas=steam), but still has the same chemical formula and therefore is the same substance, although it is in three totally different forms. To prove that these three different, but identical, items can coexist, drop an ice cube into a mug of boiling hot water - you will have ice, water and steam existing together (for a short while, at least!), and is one good demonstration of how the Trinity can exist - three different forms although the same substance coexisting together.

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Matthew 28.19 is bogus scripture, not the word of God, it was put in the bible after the council of nicea so they would have some scriptural support for trinity. actually it doesn't support trinity, but they probablly didn't think about it to clearly when they stuck it in.

"Denying the Trinity doctrine denies the deity of Jesus Christ, one of the central beliefs of the Christian religion. "

I do not see this as true. UPCI deny the trinity but accept the diety of Jesus.
They must therefore be Christian.

Hank said:

You mentioned before you don't wish to argue with me.
Thus my only statement - Trinity is illogical

See Matthew 3:16-17 (NIV)
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.

Are we to believe God spoke from the heavens and is pleased with himself?

John 1:1 (NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God. The Word was God. To put an a does not alter the meaning! It means in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. You can not be one and be with one as one and the same. Even without the a to interpret a trinity out of John 1:1 make no sense.


There is much more. If you like I will put my JW hat on and argue against Trinity. I will also give comparable Egyptian and Eastern trinity gods. I will quote Historical facts when and how Trinity came about into Christianity. We will compare Hebrew Bibles with King James and JW Bible. When I'm done, I may not have anyone converted to be a JW, but shown that if anything they try to resolve illogical doctrines from within the framework of Christianity. They have ways to go yet, but they themselves admit, their light shines brighter every day, i.e they try to actually progress in understanding. Their doctrines are not stagnant!

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Hello brother.

very right, illogical and pagan origin

I call these two verses my trinity busters.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Not at any time. Never. No one has ever seen God. Lots of people looked at Jesus though, even touched him.

Either that or John was lying. I know he didn't lie. So we must have never seen God.

Plus lets look at Revelations 1

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

In this scripture Jesus has already ascended to heaven. He is with the father Jehovah.
According to the trinity, him and Jehovah are one in body. Than why did Jehovah have to tell Jesus to tell the angels to tell John.

If Jesus was God. He would not have to get the revelation from God, He would have already had it, to pass on to the angels to give to John.

Now lets look at revelation 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Why would Jesus have to confess names before the father if he and the father are one?

There are many more versus that prove they are individuals. And when read correctly, with cross references in scripture, all scripture gives Jehovah glory through his son.

The key to finding false religion is easy. If the religion contradicts the bible, in any way. It is a false religion. It is that simple to find the truth.

Here is an example.
Worshiping and venerating Mary the mother of Jesus

This is not in the bible. In fact the bible is against her veneration. Lets look at Luke.

Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus himself said don't do it. Yet false religions do it.

The religion that doesn't follow their own doctrine is the same one that thought up the trinity. Things that make you go Hmm.

God Bless
LT

didaskalos said:

"Denying the Trinity doctrine denies the deity of Jesus Christ, one of the central beliefs of the Christian religion. "

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it may be cetnral to most peoples christian religon, but it is not in the bible. Trinity ain't there, Jesus is God ain't there, yet you require it for salvation. that's adding to the biblical requirements for salvation.

didaskalos said:

I do not see this as true. UPCI deny the trinity but accept the diety of Jesus.
They must therefore be Christian.

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You say 'the diety of Jesus" as if some scripture actually said that. what scripture says 'he the believes the diety of Jesus is a christian, or is saved or is passed from death unto life, or words to that effect? NONE. Why not say he that is born again, and believes in God the Father and in the one he sent Jesus, and believes that Jesus is the son of God is a christian? That's what scripture says. so why do you make up your own requirements for salvation found nowhere in the bible? cause everybody else does? I think so.

So ironic that the 2 of the most important doctrines in the Christian church, one of which is eternal torment, the other which is the trinity doctrine, and neither of those words even appear in the scriptures.

I mean these are apparently make or break doctrines and neither the word "Trinity" or the word "Hell" never even make one appearance in the all the Scriptures.

NOT ONCE!

Oh the lenghts that men will go to to defend rank heresy!

martymonster said:

So ironic that the 2 of the most important doctrines in the Christian church, one of which is eternal torment, the other which is the trinity doctrine, and neither of those words even appear in the scriptures.

I mean these are apparently make or break doctrines and neither the word "Trinity" or the word "Hell" never even make one appearance in the all the Scriptures.

NOT ONCE!

Oh the lenghts that men will go to to defend rank heresy!

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actually heresy is not a word found in the bible. The number of people believing or not believeing something has no bearing on whether it is true or not. For some strange reason people believe that since most people today believe a doctrine concocted in the dark ages, that it must be true. I mean most christians believe it so it's gotta be true, never mind it was formulated int he dark ages.
I suspect that heresy is a word trinitarians invented, but I could be wrong. certainly they use it to extremes.

martymonster said:

So ironic that the 2 of the most important doctrines in the Christian church, one of which is eternal torment, the other which is the trinity doctrine, and neither of those words even appear in the scriptures.

I mean these are apparently make or break doctrines and neither the word "Trinity" or the word "Hell" never even make one appearance in the all the Scriptures.

NOT ONCE!

Oh the lengths that men will go to to defend rank heresy!

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Hello,
Just like the doctrine of the trinity, the belief in hell is a false religious teaching with pagan origin.

The funny thing is, most Christians know the right answers but don't put 2 and 2 together.

God is love.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
God is merciful
We see lots of scriptures that show this.

How is hell loving and merciful?

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. doesn't say from dust to eternal torment or heaven. From the earth we came to the earth we return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Freed of sin when we die. But false religion teaches that you pay for your sins with eternal punishment.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice that a sinful person pays with death. done, no more. It does not say the wages of sin is eternal torment.


false religions have taught that Satan lives in hell with his demons. They punish and burn the wicked for eternity.

Does God and Satan work together for a common purpose?

Not what the bible says.

Plus we know that Jesus is going to kill Satan. It is in the bible.

Well, when Satan and his demons are gone, who is running hell and tormenting people for all eternity. Does God himself take over the job?

That would not be loving or merciful.

Plus lets look at Jeremiah.

7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

It has never come to his heart to burn people. Never.
False religions say that he does send people to be burned forever.

Now the same false religion that created the trinity is the same one that says God is an extortioner.
Love me, or I will burn you for eternity.
God hates extortion. He would not do something he is against.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God would not even be allowed in his own kingdom if he extorted people. He gave us free will to want to draw close to him. Not because we have to. Because we want to.

These false doctrines all come from the same false religion that created the doctrine of the trinity. Things that make you go hmm.

God Bless
LT

Logicalthinker said:

Hello,
Just like the doctrine of the trinity, the belief in hell is a false religious teaching with pagan origin.

The funny thing is, most Christians know the right answers but don't put 2 and 2 together.

God is love.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
God is merciful
We see lots of scriptures that show this.

How is hell loving and merciful?

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. doesn't say from dust to eternal torment or heaven. From the earth we came to the earth we return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Freed of sin when we die. But false religion teaches that you pay for your sins with eternal punishment.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice that a sinful person pays with death. done, no more. It does not say the wages of sin is eternal torment.


false religions have taught that Satan lives in hell with his demons. They punish and burn the wicked for eternity.

Does God and Satan work together for a common purpose?

Not what the bible says.

Plus we know that Jesus is going to kill Satan. It is in the bible.

Well, when Satan and his demons are gone, who is running hell and tormenting people for all eternity. Does God himself take over the job?

That would not be loving or merciful.

Plus lets look at Jeremiah.

7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

It has never come to his heart to burn people. Never.
False religions say that he does send people to be burned forever.

Now the same false religion that created the trinity is the same one that says God is an extortioner.
Love me, or I will burn you for eternity.
God hates extortion. He would not do something he is against.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God would not even be allowed in his own kingdom if he extorted people. He gave us free will to want to draw close to him. Not because we have to. Because we want to.

These false doctrines all come from the same false religion that created the doctrine of the trinity. Things that make you go hmm.

God Bless
LT

Click to expand...

how do you interpret these verses then?

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.