You can't be both.

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Jet_A_Jockey

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]God knows for sure, but sadly, he leaves it up to us to reason this out without his guidnce. Another flaw in the Bible
Holy Spirit 101.



OT I know, but I don't believe vilifying your homosexual neighbours or restricting their Godly ability to love is really very neighbourly either.
I'm not vilifying anyone, or restricting them from anything.

Just since you mention those 2 cmdts.Sure feels that way when you keep misrepresenting what I say, and saying I say stuff that isn't remotely near anything I ever said... what would you call it?
I don't intend to bear false witness against you, if I have I apologize.
Indeed. Does that mean I think the Bible is without value, is not inspired by God, or unable to teach us? No. No it doesn't.
But what good is a teacher that you only listen to sometimes and not others?

Agreed.Perhaps if you'd TRY to understand my position, rather than just writing it off without considering it? I'm doing my best to explain it, i don't know how to do it any better, and I'm sorry I'm failing.
I have difficulty because you choose a label that does not conform to your statements. This is my perception though, and I am prone to error.
I don't believe anything I have said contradicts any of his teachings?
abortion is not justified by biblical teachings in any way.

as for the rest of the Bible... hey, maybe you're right, maybe I cherry pick a bit and maybe I avoid some of the passages that are inconvenient to me personally, but, and heres the important bit... NO MORE THAN YOU DO! For any verse you want to accuse me of wrongly disregarding or falsley interpreting, I can find one that you do exactly the same for.
really? which ones? I admit that I fall into sin, and I admit what those sins are. What do I disregard out of convenience?
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I don't intend to bear false witness against you, if I have I apologize.
I accept. Please be mindful of it?
But what good is a teacher that you only listen to sometimes and not others?
The trick is working out the lessons that are really from the teacher...

I might conversely say "what good is listening to everything a teacher says when only half of it is wisdom, the other half giberish?"
abortion is not justified by biblical teachings in any way.
Yes it is... list follows
really? which ones? I admit that I fall into sin, and I admit what those sins are. What do I disregard out of convenience?
Bunch of OT stuff... how about sellign all you have, and giving the money to the poor so you can go follow Christ? Thats a BIG one...
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

Child abuse:
Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.
I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man. I look upon his suggestion with far more revulsion then I give accredit to Susan Smith.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.
Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)
Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.

In conclusion I shall end this list with a verse that should keep the pro lifers in check. It is Romans 13: 1-7
“Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which god has established. The authorities that exist have been established by god. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what god has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he shall commend you. For he is god’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is god’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. There fore it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are god’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes, if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”
Clearly it is the job of Christians to obey the laws, and the laws of this country clearly state that abortion is legal. So too should Christians respect and honor that law. God commands them to NOT disobey, which entails attempting to get the law overturned. If god wanted abortion to be illegal he wouldn’t have appointed authorities to make it legal.
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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I don't believe, objectively, that they are really any better than any other multi celled organism. Whta makes them special and sacred happens later.
Do you think its correct to make such a large assumption as that, especially when lives are involved?
Its true that not everyone born into a poverty stricken, abusive childhood has a miserable life and regrets being born.

A great many do though... and I don't think its fair to condemn someone to that when there is an alternative.
yes, death. Why not kill the abusive parents while we are at it, then the root stops. I still don't understand how your argument is justified.

I believe abortion is no more tragic than the millions of natural abortions that occur every day.
like i said before, people die everyday of natural causes, yet when someone kills someone else it is murder.

Sure, they MIGHT have gone on to be the next Einstein or whatever, but probably not. And hey, its not like they care, because they never had a concept of self.
probably not? is it right to terminate a life based on a probability? Life is worth so much more than that, money, and convenience.

Once again... its not a matter of God LIKING abortion, its a matter of him not thinking its the big deal you make it out to be...
God makes everything a big deal. He is God after all. All it takes is one sin to fall short of glory.


In your opinion thats what he says... although the Talmud also says that YHWH doesn't consider you a person until you draw a breath... and this is the teaching that Jesus grew up in, called the law and everything, right? Seems something pretty major thing for him not to mention if he wanted to update it.
So you think Jesus believes that a full-term abortion is ok?

I believe the Bible when its claims are logically supportable, with objective evidence. Have you got any logical, objective evidence that abortion is wrong? Who does it harm, that is AWARE of being harmed?I don't see a seperation... what is logical and right in a christian life should be logical and right in a secular one.
You are holding christian standards under that of secular standards. That statement implies secular humanist-christianity. Thou shalt not kill comes to mind, though. All that is right would lead me to believe that killing a human life is wrong, not right.

If you only care about the Godly standard, why are you so keen that other people share your POV? Isn't Godliness a private matter between you and him? If you think an abortion is wrong, then don't have one... its the way you expect your personal beliefs to extrapolate to others that I have a problem with, that I think you should have MORE than your personal interpretation of the Bible to back up.Its a can of worms isn't it?
Because God not only expects us to believe what is right, but also to do what is right. I'll go more on this later as I'm running short of time now.



Also... they are now farming transgenic pigs with, effectively, human hearts for precisely this purpose. Got a problem with that? Or is this another area that the Bible didn't quite adequately prepare us for?
I'm on the fence about that.

so don't have an abortion.

If you want to do more to stop abortion, you know what needs to be done. Campaign for improved sex ed and distribution of contraceptives, campaign for government subsidised health care and daycare, contribute time or money to your local illiteracy program... any or all of the above will lesson abortion rates.
Pro-choicer lecturing a Pro-lifer on how to go about their cause? Advocating something makes you just as guilty as actually doing it.
If everyone's standard of living goes up, and they aren't worried about their baby dying of early childhood diseases, abortion rates go down. Regardless of whether they are Christian with your views, Christian with my views, secular humanist, or neo-pagan with a twist of karmic chicken.

Right?
That is a good cause to be involved in, although I fear we may be heading into socialism by those in power in the days to come.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Do you think its correct to make such a large assumption as that, especially when lives are involved?
Someone's got to make it, and my assumption is based on all available objective evidence.
yes, death. Why not kill the abusive parents while we are at it, then the root stops. I still don't understand how your argument is justified.
Because they aren't an abusive parent until they're parents?

Seriously, if we had a sure fire method of identifying the abusers, I'd be for mandatory sterilisation... and then your potential human STILL doesn't get born, anymore than if they were aborted. So I'm not sure who wins, there...
like i said before, people die everyday of natural causes, yet when someone kills someone else it is murder.
murder victims care, aborted foetuses do not.
probably not? is it right to terminate a life based on a probability? Life is worth so much more than that, money, and convenience.
The universe runs on probability... everything we do or decide is based on probability... so yeah... because its all we've got to go on.
God makes everything a big deal. He is God after all. All it takes is one sin to fall short of glory.
Now you're doing that derailing thing again... the OT makes it clear that it considers some sins to be lesser than others... as do most mainstream churches. So is abortion equivalent to stealing a dollar from your mum's purse, or killing her?
So you think Jesus believes that a full-term abortion is ok?
Hey, I didn't write the Talmud, I'm just going off what it says. By all accounts, Jesus was down with it, and the Talmud says you aren't a person until you draw breath. I'm just saying... if you don't like it, I'm sorry, I don't know how to help you.

Personally, I'm happy to draw the line at 20 weeks, except in cases of medical risk to the mother or foetus.
You are holding christian standards under that of secular standards. That statement implies secular humanist-christianity. Thou shalt not kill comes to mind, though. All that is right would lead me to believe that killing a human life is wrong, not right.
I'm confused... how do you figure secular-humanist-Christianity endorses killing people?
Because God not only expects us to believe what is right, but also to do what is right. I'll go more on this later as I'm running short of time now.
Probably worth a new thread
I'm on the fence about that.
Its a doozy... next time I'll talk to you about the phenotypical human who is genotypically a chimp!
Pro-choicer lecturing a Pro-lifer on how to go about their cause? Advocating something makes you just as guilty as actually doing it.
I've told you before, I am both pro life AND pro choice. I believe in reducing abortion rates, sincerely, whole heartedly. But not by removing peoples choice to have one, rather, reducing their NEED/DESIRE to have one
That is a good cause to be involved in, although I fear we may be heading into socialism by those in power in the days to come.
And socialised health/child care is bad because...? (another thread for another time)
 
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JoabAnias

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Foetus
(Science: biology, embryology, obstetrics) a developing unborn offspring of an animal that gives birth to its young (as opposed to laying eggs).
From approximately three months after conception the offspring take on a recognisable form (all parts in Place, etc.). In human development, the period after the seventh or eighth week of pregnancy is the foetal period. An unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature animal.A developed embryo that appears to have similar structural characteristics to that of its adult form. http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Foetus

It would seem by this definition that it says after approximately 3 months all parts are in place. Would not you have to conceed then that a feotus is then a complete human being?

I appreciate your efforts yet I asked for some pictures. Could you not find any? I understand you are providing what supports your opinion so I would then ask, have you understood the opposing one? The one all Christians hold to?


Dr. Jerome Lejeune, "Father of Modern Genetics" and discoverer of the cause of Down's Syndrome, stated, "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion . . . it is plain experimental evidence."​

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."​

Sir William Liley, a key pioneer of fetal therapy, wrote a famous article in 1972, The Foetus as a Personality, in which he shows us why we have moved away from the view of the fetus as an inert, unformed passenger awaiting arrival at the destination of life, and have seen that the fetus is a splendidly functioning human, full of vigor and very much in command of the pregnancy.
Men and women of science might often approve of abortion, but that is a judgment about the value of human life, not about the scientific fact that human life exists. We present to you below some of the visual evidence that, indeed, we have a brother, a sister, in the womb.​
Click here for pictures of the developing baby.

and yes, the Bible justifies abortion, Jesus never mentioned it. What Jesus says and what the Bible says are not interchangeable concepts.

Ah but they are interchangeable concepts sister.

In so much as Jesus fulfilled and aborgated much of the Old Law. To the New.

Jesus may not have explicitly mentioned abortion as far as we know is recorded in scripture but do you not think that He fulfilled the Old laws?

The Apostles who Jesus left in charge to carry on did on the other hand specifically mention abortion in the Didache as I have already shown you in a previous post. How do you dismiss the guidance of the Didiache?

Now lets say for the sake of argument you can provide scirptures that in your mind justify killing a feotus.

How can you be so sure? In light of the following scriptures? Please read them if you wish to understand your oppositions point of view:

Psalm 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Jeremiah 1:4-6 The word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Galatians 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me . . .

Psalm 127:3 Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him.

Leviticus 20:1-5 The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: Any Israelite or alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech."

Matthew 18:10 See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my father in heaven.

Isaiah 45:9-10 Woe to him who quarrels with the Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Do the clay say to the potter, "What are you making?" Do your works say, "He has no hands?" Woe to him who says to his father, "What have you begotten?" Or to his mother, "What have you brought to birth?"

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I Corinthians 6:19-20 Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Peace.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I appreciate your efforts yet I asked for some pictures. Could you not find any? I understand you are providing what supports your opinion so I would then ask, have you understood the opposing one? The one all Christians hold to?
Sorry. I thought the descriptions were adequate.

You are mistaken... not all Christians oppose my view, as I am a Christian.

I know what a developing foetus looks like... second year nursing student here... but what it LOOKS LIKE and what it IS are not necesarily the same.

Yes, all the parts are basically in place, but no, they are not yet developed enough to be considered a human BEING... they are certainly human, don't get me wrong, but a foetus isn't a person.
 
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JoabAnias

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Sorry. I thought the descriptions were adequate.

You are mistaken... not all Christians oppose my view, as I am a Christian.

I know what a developing foetus looks like... second year nursing student here... but what it LOOKS LIKE and what it IS are not necesarily the same.

Yes, all the parts are basically in place, but no, they are not yet developed enough to be considered a human BEING... they are certainly human, don't get me wrong, but a foetus isn't a person.

Do you think this is a personal value judgement on what life is. I know God said if we eat of the fruit we will be like Him but it doesn't appear that He is ever saying its not life. So it illogical for me to come to the same conclusion as you. Not that I hold anything against you for yours of course. I simply cannot of good conscience agree. Thats all.

Peace sister.
 
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JoabAnias

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Sorry. I thought the descriptions were adequate.

You are mistaken... not all Christians oppose my view, as I am a Christian.

I know what a developing foetus looks like... second year nursing student here... but what it LOOKS LIKE and what it IS are not necesarily the same.

Yes, all the parts are basically in place, but no, they are not yet developed enough to be considered a human BEING... they are certainly human, don't get me wrong, but a foetus isn't a person.

I have to reply to this same post again because it got me thinking of something else;

What do you think Jesus meant when He told the Apostles not to suffer the little children to come to Him?

It seems to me in your reasoning that to abort the feotus is to do this, especially since the rational is that they aren't developed enough to know Jesus. If that is truly the case then what hope have they of salvation without being granted the right to develope? Or is it you also believe they have no souls either?

Peace.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Do you think this is a personal value judgement on what life is. I know God said if we eat of the fruit we will be like Him but it doesn't appear that He is ever saying its not life. So it illogical for me to come to the same conclusion as you. Not that I hold anything against you for yours of course. I simply cannot of good conscience agree. Thats all.

Peace sister.
you are welcome to disagree. I enjoy frank and friendly discussion.
What do you think Jesus meant when He told the Apostles not to suffer the little children to come to Him?
He meant let the children come to him.

The thing you have to remember is, Jesus was raised according to Talmudic customs, and the Talmud says you aren't a person until you draw breath. If Jesus had meant foetuses, he would have specified, because in Talmudic tradition, there is a clear distinction between the born and the unborn.
It seems to me in your reasoning that to abort the feotus is to do this, especially since the rational is that they aren't developed enough to know Jesus. If that is truly the case then what hope have they of salvation without being granted the right to develope? Or is it you also believe they have no souls either?
Souls are tricky. The Bible never clearly defines what a soul is, or when we get one. Does it arrive as a fully formed entity, or does it grow and develop as we do?

I'm of the (purely personal) opinion, that the soul grows and develops along with our sentience. I genuinely don't think a foetus has a soul. I don't think you have a soul until you demonstrate some level of sentience (in most cases) It just doesn't make sense to me that an unsentient being, like a foetus, can have a sentient, spiritual being driving it, if you see what I mean?
 
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JoabAnias

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I'm of the (purely personal) opinion, that the soul grows and develops along with our sentience. I genuinely don't think a foetus has a soul. I don't think you have a soul until you demonstrate some level of sentience (in most cases) It just doesn't make sense to me that an unsentient being, like a foetus, can have a sentient, spiritual being driving it, if you see what I mean?

Yes I see what you mean but to me it doesn't make sense to me as I agree with:

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, who stated, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception" thus making life from God and any human life from God must be with soul and sentient from that instance. Creation theology also proves it for me.

Peace.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Yes I see what you mean but to me it doesn't make sense to me as I agree with:

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, who stated, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception" thus making life from God and any human life from God must be with soul and sentient from that instance. Creation theology also proves it for me.

Peace.
I'm not disputing that a foetus is ALIVE, there I agree wholeheartedly... but so what? Just because its alive doesn't make it sentient, does it?
 
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anonymous1515

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I'm not disputing that a foetus is ALIVE, there I agree wholeheartedly... but so what? Just because its alive doesn't make it sentient, does it?
If you've said it once, you've said it a million times (and I agree with you by the way). Is it just me, or do these debates seem to go on forever with nobody making any real ground? Neither side is going to submit..
 
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EnemyPartyII

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If you've said it once, you've said it a million times (and I agree with you by the way). Is it just me, or do these debates seem to go on forever with nobody making any real ground? Neither side is going to submit..
Well, I like to think I don't ask people the same question over and over again...
 
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anonymous1515

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Well, I like to think I don't ask people the same question over and over again...
Haha, maybe you dont. But I know I've seen you answer that same question a bunch of times in other threads (and maybe this thread too).

I've only been around here on CF for a little while, but I've already gotten tired of repeating my same arguments over and over.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Haha, maybe you dont. But I know I've seen you answer that same question a bunch of times in other threads (and maybe this thread too).

I've only been around here on CF for a little while, but I've already gotten tired of repeating my same arguments over and over.
It does get tiring... but what can I tell you? I'm a pedant... knoiwing there are people out there who are wrong bugs me on a visceral level
 
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anonymous1515

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It does get tiring... but what can I tell you? I'm a pedant... knoiwing there are people out there who are wrong bugs me on a visceral level
Haha, I hear ya. And who knows...maybe you'll change the mind of some guest who happened to stumble across this thread.
 
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isabella1

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Sorry. I thought the descriptions were adequate.

You are mistaken... not all Christians oppose my view, as I am a Christian.

I know what a developing foetus looks like... second year nursing student here... but what it LOOKS LIKE and what it IS are not necesarily the same.

Yes, all the parts are basically in place, but no, they are not yet developed enough to be considered a human BEING... they are certainly human, don't get me wrong, but a foetus isn't a person.
Second year of nursing school, congrats to you, keep it up your half way there. Please, don't let the medical institution mold you into their numbness.

So tell me, have you ever witnessed an abortion yet? Have you been in the presence of, or held a precious little life that has been aborted? Have you been struck with grief and wept uncontrollably, for a little lamb that you did not even have the slightest connection to?

If you had your soul might be in so much grief and utter turmoil, that you would have to drop to your knees before God with this precious little one before you, begging God for his Mercy and forgiveness for the sins of its mother.

I wonder...... I wonder if then, you would re-think your opinion of what "Thou Shalt Not Kill" really means, as you are standing before God Almighty, with HIS beautiful creation. I am sure God considers his creation, "the foetus" a real baby, a real human being.

In my 13 years of working in OB/Labor and Delivery, abortion has never been the right thing to do. Not for the Mother (who is always grief stricken about the act of killing her baby, and suffers much emotional trauma for years after), or the baby.

Just something for you to think about, as you enter your career. Peace and Blessings
 
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NoDoubt

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If you had your soul might be in so much grief and utter turmoil, that you would have to drop to your knees before God with this precious little one before you, begging God for his Mercy and forgiveness for the sins of its mother.

I wonder...... I wonder if then, you would re-think your opinion of what "Thou Shalt Not Kill" really means, as you are standing before God Almighty, with HIS beautiful creation. I am sure God considers his creation, "the foetus" a real baby, a real human being.

In my 13 years of working in OB/Labor and Delivery, abortion has never been the right thing to do. Not for the Mother (who is always grief stricken about the act of killing her baby, and suffers much emotional trauma for years after), or the baby.

Just something for you to think about, as you enter your career. Peace and Blessings
Amen and Peace to you and everyone also. Why think of an unborn baby as a blob or a mass of cells --sentient/non-sentient -- or something to be discarded. It breaks my heart.

Artist hanged herself after aborting her twins

An artist killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant, leaving a note saying: "I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum."

Emma Beck was found hanging at her home in Helston, Cornwall, on Feb 1 2007. She was declared dead early the following day - her 31st birthday.
Her suicide note read: "I told everyone I didn't want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies: they need me, no-one else does."

The inquest at Truro City Hall heard that Miss Beck had split up with her boyfriend, referred to as "Ben" after he "reacted badly" to the pregnancy.

She saw her GP before the termination, but missed an appointment at a hospital in Penzance. She then cancelled, but later turned up to an appointment at a clinic at Royal Cornwall Hospital in Treliske. The counsellor was on holiday so a doctor referred Miss Beck to a pregnancy counselling telephone service eight days before carrying out the abortion when she was eight weeks pregnant, the inquest heard.

The coroner, Dr Emma Carlyon, ordered that the identities of the doctor who performed the abortion and her lead consultant be kept secret.

The inquest heard that Sylvia Beck, the victim's mother, wrote to the hospital after her daughter's death, saying: "I want to know why she was not given the opportunity to see a counsellor.

"She was only going ahead with the abortion because her boyfriend did not want the twins."
"She was pleased when she became pregnant, but Ben reacted badly to the news."

Recording a verdict of suicide, Dr Carlyon said: "It is clear that a termination can have a profound effect on a woman's life."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/22/nartist122.xml
 
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