Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Posted by edpobre: "You are saying that Christ is God the Father who BECAME Christ and Christ BECAME subservient to HIMSELF being the Father, right? Thus, when Christ lifted his eyes to heaven and SAID, "Father, the hour has come..." (John 17:1), he was ACTUALLY praying to himself, he being the Father, right? And he was also crying out to himself on the cross when he said, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Your belief is FALSE fow. Christ CAME as a HUMAN being and anyone that says he CAME as God the Father who BECAME a MAN has the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ (1 John 4:1-3)."
According to you. You have no way of proving how it is 'false', and acctually... I have proven that your's is. You seem to think it impossible for God to take the nature of man... and come to earth in the flesh as He did indeed do. I notice that you conveniently never address a certain aspect of Hebrews... but we will get to that later.
With God nothing is impossible (Luke 1:37). However, God did NOT want to become a man. In Numbers 23:19, God says He is NOT a MAN. In Hosea 11:9, God says He is God, NOT man. You CANNOT make God do something He does NOT want to do.
The Bible SAYS, "But when the fullness of the time had come, God SENT forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal. 4:4). God SAYS, "...This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. LISTEN to him" (Matt. 17:5; Matt. 3:17). Jesus SAYS, "...I proceeded forth and CAME from God; nor have I come of myself, but He SENT me" (John 8:42).
The above verses PROVE that Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father who BECAME man. Thus, your belief that Jesus Christ is God the Father who BECAME Jesus, the MAN is FALSE!
Posted by edpobre: "Look at Hebrews 9:14 fow. It says, "Christ offered HIMSELF unblemished TO God. If Christ were God, there would be TWO Gods which is NOT what the Bible teaches."
Once again... only in your view does it mean there are two of anything. Christ obviously took off the 'robe' of being God to take on the 'robe' of sin. He submitted Himself to God, from whom He came (get it... whom He was, from whom He came), to be able to sacrifice Himself for us.
Jesus Christ SAYS he CAME from God. He SAYS he did NOT come by himself but that God SENT him (John 8:40). Your understanding that Jesus is a PART of God the Father because he said "he CAME from God" is FALSE. Jesus is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from God the Father. Hebrews 9:14 CLEARLY shows that "Christ offered himself unblemished to God."
Here is the Hebrews aspect ed... In Hebrews... the verse is posted in the other posts... it says that the sacrifice was necessary because the covenant could not go into effect until the ONE WHO MADE IT was still living. I ask you ed!!! WHO MADE THE COVENANT!!!???
Again, your understanding of Hebrews 9:16-17 is FALSE. God MADE the covenant but because God CANNOT die, He being IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17), even the FIRST
Covenant went into effect ONLY with the use of blood (Hebrews 9:18
TEV).
Thus, Moses sprinkled blood of animals on the book and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you' (Hebrews 9:19-20).
The New Covenant which was made by God who CANNOT die, went into effect only THROUGH the blood of Christ (a man instead of animals) who was offered once for the sins of many (Hebrews 9:28).
Posted by edpobre: "Did you read Acts 2:36? Doesn't it say that God MADE Jesus both "LORD and Christ?"
Ed... you are not grasping what took place. Do you think that God... once He took the nature of man... made Himself nothing... now being the Christ... could He do anything on His own??? No... The Father... (remember...from whom He came)... did indeed make Him Lord. The Christ... was nothing, remember? (Made HIMSELF nothing phil 2) And furhermore... this again contrasts Isaiah 42:8...
God did NOT take the nature of MAN. Christ is NOT a part of the Father. God the Father is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from the SON. God SENT Jesus into the world.
God had said that He will NOT give His glory to another. Therefore, the FACT that God the Father MADE Jesus the SON both Lord and Christ PROVES that God was NOT giving His glory to another. What He DID was FOR His glory.
Posted by edpobre: "How can God and Jesus be the SAME"
Simple... they must be according to God's word: (Hebrews 9:14,16-17) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Did God not Make the covenant ed?
As I said earlier in this post, it was God who MADE the covenant. Now, if you go to Hebrews 9:18
TEV, you will read that the FIRST
Covenant was put into effect by the USE of blood of ANIMALS. The SECOND
Covenant was likewise put into effect by the blood of Christ, a MAN.
Posted by ed: "John 14:5-10 does NOT tell us that Jesus is God the Father"
According to you ed... but lets see what others see if they read it huh?
The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
If you believe John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus IDENTIFIES the Father alone as the ONLY true God, you would understand that Jesus was speaking FIGURATIVELY. In verse 14, Jesus SAYS, "I go to my Father." Would Jesus be saying this if it is TRUE that he is the Father and the Father is him? Where was the Father? Of course, in heaven. And where was Christ? Of course, on earth.
When Jesus said, "the words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing the work," he was only repeating what he said in John 12:49, that whatever he says or speaks is a command from God, what to say and what to speak.
Posted by ed: "The "HE" refers to the MAN that the WORD of God turned into. The WORD has NO gender fow, just to let you know. Rev. 19:13 refers to Jesus. Jesus is the MAN that the WORD turned into (the WORD became Jesus, remember?). Thus, Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. This is NOT what I am asking for."
Really... well this 'man' was with God in the beginning... through this 'man' all things were made... and without Him NOTHING was made that has been made. This 'man' was given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Would this not be an example of God giving His glory to 'another'. Do you not claim that Christ is 'another' If He is not God (as you claim), then He would be 'another'... and this would not be 'glory'... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS??? HE IS GOD who became like a man... took our nature.
The FACT that God MADE the MAN Jesus "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" is PROOF that God did NOT give His glory to another. He MADE Jesus "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" FOR His OWN glory. Do you think God would fall back on His word? Definitely NOT! God said, "have I SAID it and NOT do it? or have I SPOKEN and NOT make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).
God SAID He will NOT give His glory to another. HE didn't.
This 'man' is described here ed... lets let others see what it says... they should be able to tell since God is not the author of confusion: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
In what way was the 'man' in the beginning with God? The 'man' was part of God's wisdom or 'logos' for the redemption of the world. The 'man' was foreordained or chosen in advance or anointed before the creation of the world (1 Peter 1:20) as Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel, the forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).
Posted by ed: "But anyone can see that everything you have posted so far are TWISTED interpretation of Isaiah 48:2."
Really ed??? Well lets get a post of that verse on down here... here we go: I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another
now you state they are two different things... yet... God makes Christ... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the Lord of Glory... Thomas cries out to Him 'my Lord and my God'... the Prince of Peace... the Redeemer... the Holy One of Israel... In Hebrews the Father says about the Son... "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever."
If they are two different beings as YOU state... then God is indeed giving His glory to another... those titles are diety are they not? But this would contradict God's own words.
These titles are NOT deity. That's only your interpretation. God did NOT give His glory to the MAN Jesus by making him Lord and Christ, by making him savior or by giving him a name which is above every name. God would NOT break His word. God did all these in accordance with His PLAN of Salvation. And the implementation of this PLAN is FOR His glory.
In FACT, confessing that Jesus is Lord is TO the glory OF God the Father (Phil. 2:11).
The fact is that Christ is indeed God who became like man... making Himself nothing... God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God... Yet Christ is also called God by God.
Let's make this clear fow:
1. Christ is God who BECAME like man. That's ONE God.
2. God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God. This is ANOTHER God. Who is this God who ALONE is God, who is the Beginning and the End?
3. Christ is called God by God. Is this yet ANOTHER God who called Christ God?
I expect clear answers fow.
Ed