What "the Word WAS God" means.

I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


Ed... who is the Lord of Glory?

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1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

ed????

That's what John 8:40 and John 17:3 teach.

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Hmmm---is it really what they teach? You used the words, "common sense". God is infinite, you and I are not. So our "COMMON SENSE" is based on what we know. Thus you derive the doctrine from those Scriptures based on your own common sense. And so highly do you value your own common sense that it stands to you stronger than all of the other Scriptures with which you have been presented...

You simply AGREE with the Jews and say: "yeah, Jesus CLAIMED to be God because the Jews THOUGHT he did."

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Well, JESUS said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM". You say "He wasn't REALLY calling Himself God---but the Jews THERE thought He was---they wanted to KILL HIM!" (Jn8:58-59)

And, in John10:30, Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE." You say that Jesus was only saying one in PURPOSE---but in verse 33, the JEWS clearly understood HIM to be calling Himself GOD!

Tell me, Ed---whom shall I believe? You? Or the EYEWITNESSES THERE AT THE TIME???



(Awesome posts, Fields!)

Posted by edpobre: “The Lord of Glory is Jesus. Don't you know that God MADE Jesus LORD? Read Acts 2:36.”

Here ed… you are contradicting every part of: I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)

What does the LORD say ed? He says that He will NOT do what you are saying He did. Explain that one. Of course… that is unless they are one in the same (which they are)

Posted by edpobre: “If you THINK God the Father BECAME Jesus because of YOUR interpretation of these verses, then answer me HONESTLY fow, who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1”

Here ed… lets let everyone read this and see what they see… how about it?

“The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

You ask: “Who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1?” Your dimensional understanding does not limit the Father ed. He is the LORD of LORDS… He is the Alpha and the Omega… the Beginning and the End… the First and the Last… He is the Living God who says that there are no others but Him. He is the Savior… He is the Redeemer. All of these things Christ claims as well.

However… you say that God made Him these things… and that He gave all of this to Christ. Ah ha, but ed… that contradicts the very character of God… He says that He will NOT give these things to another… He says that there are no others but Him. Therefore Christ is God the Father who TOOK the nature of a man, out of His own Love… He says that He made HIMSELF a man… no one else did this to Him. God did not make… some sub-god a man… He made HIMSELF a man. This is the Father to whom the one who came from the Father prayed to during the time that He made Himself nothing.

Posted by edpobre: “While it is true that Jesus (the MAN into which the WORD that was God BECAME) is the WORD of God”

You say that the Word is God… and that it came into a man. However, God says that The “He” (the “He” that you refer to as a mere man) was with God in the Beginning. So, basically… the “Word was God” refers to this “He” who was with God in the Beginning.

(In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.)

Posted by edpobre: “show me a scripture which says that <I>Jesus WAS the WORD</I> that was God <I>BEFORE he WAS born.</I>”

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Posted by edpobre: “Apostle Paul SAID: there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)”

Here… I will post the verse for you ed: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and from whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

First of all… read the verse… tell me… do you think that this verse is saying that they are two different beings? It is not… Furthermore… this does explain exactly what we have been discussing here. God the Father had to fulfill His covenant. He had to become the ultimate sacrifice for man… you want to see this in the Bible? >>> Here you go: The Bible says, (Hebrews 9:16-17), In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Through what was man made (as the verse indicates)? I say that it was through Love that God created us. (Remember through Him all things were made that have been made: John 1) Also, 1 John 4:9—“This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him.” 1 John 4:19—“We love because He first loved us.” I also know that God is love (1 John 4:8 and 4:16) This “Love” whom He is… desired to become our sacrifice: (Remember… the greatest love is willing to lay down his own life for his friend)… Importance on “HIS OWN.” You may say… God will not make Himself nothing therefore being able to sacrifice Himself. Why ed? Is God unwilling to do this? Is He too self-seeking to allow Himself to become humble and submit Himself to death? How would this be if Love is not self-seeking, and God is Love? (1 Corinthians 13:5)

Therefore: From an earlier post---When God made Himself a man... it was love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. (Which is why you see Him in subservience to the Father) This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendable love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Posted by edpobre: “Sure, God and Jesus are BOTH Alpha and Omega. They BOTH said "I am the Alpha and the Omega." But that does NOT make them ONE God. Alpha and Omega does NOT mean the same to God as it means to Jesus.”

Really… according to whom ed? Are you now speaking for Christ… saying what He is and is not? I simply believe what He says. I believe what He says to me through His Spirit. And I believe what He says in His word. I do not try to twist things around as you do. And if you say you haven’t, then answer all of the questions pertaining to Isaiah 42:8

Posted by edpobre: “Show me the verse that says "God MADE Himself a MAN.”

Well ed… Christ, in the word of God, says that He made HIMSELF nothing. The word does not say some separate being made Him nothing… it says He made Himself nothing. You seem to indicate that God gave some other being everything indicated in the above posts (coming with info straight out of the word)… The problem is that God HIMSELF says that He will NOT do exactly what you say He did. Here-- The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Posted by edpobre: “Earlier, you said that God the Father BECAME Jesus Christ. Now you are saying that Christ BECAME subject to God the Father.”
Well ed… the Bible says that the Word (who was God) became flesh. It is the flesh (who was God) that became subservient to the very God (the only God) from whom He came.

Posted by edpobre: “ Christ will SUBJECT himself to HIM (meaning God) who placed ALL things under his feet (1 Cor. 15:28). Finally, God will again become "Lord of Lords."

You say “again” meaning that there was time when He was not… a time where it was Christ. However, this again contradicts the nature of God. He says that HE WILL NOT give His glory to another. Yet Christ is the Lord of Glory. This can only mean that Christ is the same as the one who spoke this: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

The fact is ed, that you are indeed wrong. You have allowed darkness to pervert what God says. Believe Him ed!

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe

Think of water: in a glass, you have water, ice, and vapor---three distinct and different forms, yet all is water. This is a good analogy of the Trinity in one sense, but poor in the sense that ice-can-become-water-can-become-steam, but the Son cannot become the Spirit cannot become the Father etc...

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It's a poor analogy. Here is another analogy that fits better.

I want you to meet my wife; Cindy, Mary and Emily.

Cindy is the boss. Mary is a teacher. When needed, Cindy sends Mary out to teach. Emily is really the daughter of Cindy, she does nothing on her own, everything Emily says and does comes from Cindy... but Cindy allows Emily to speak on her behalf. Yet they are all equal, they are my one wife.


If you buy the trinity idea, you should have no problem with the above.

Your posts are excellent, Fields---I hope Ed is not put off by the length, and actually reads them. BTW, do you know how to do a "QUOTE"? Type it exactly like this:

&#091quote&#093text that you want quoted&#091/quote&#093

AND, if you want ITALLICS, then use an "i" in place of the "quote", or "b" for bold, "u" for underline, and "color=___" for different colors (I just used a "&#091color=red&#093" followed by "&#091/color&#093"... (The "<i>" is HTML, and doesn't work on the vBulletin message board...)

Okay then Ben, tell me what John 8:40 and John 17:3 teach regarding the "state of being" of Jesus and the IDENTITY of the ONLY true God.

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Ed, is this (the two verses combined), the foundation of your JESUS-ISN'T-GOD belief? John 8:40 says "Jesus is a MAN"---on that we all agree. And 17:3 says "that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus whom Thou hast sent". Now, IF Jesus was fully man AND fully God, both-at-the-same-time, there is no contradiction with Jn8:40; for Jesus is indeed a man. And in the same consideration, GOD is the ONLY GOD, Jesus desires they know GOD; and that they know JESUS whom God has SENT. If Jesus is a separate and distinct PERSON, yet a part of the one BEING known as GOD, Jesus being ETERNAL and EQUAL to the Father, then there is also no contradiction.

I would like to ask you to find other verses that clearly, uncontradictably, place Jesus as "NON-GOD"; either speaking of Jesus' beginning, and/or speaking of Him being unequal to God (or being a man ONLY and not additionally divine). Can you?

Cindy is the boss. Mary is a teacher. When needed, Cindy sends Mary out to teach. Emily is really the daughter of Cindy, she does nothing on her own, everything Emily says and does comes from Cindy... but Cindy allows Emily to speak on her behalf. Yet they are all equal, they are my one wife.

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But your wife is one PERSON.

Consider Genesis1. After the "GREAT BASEBALL GAME" (in the "big inning"), actually on the Sixth Day, are written these words (vs26):

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ...and God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him."

Do you see the glaring contradiction? God is both SINGULAR ("God", "His", "He"), AND PLURAL! ("us", "our")

But it's not a contradiction if you understand that God is one ENTITY, existing as THREE PERSONS. In your analogy of your thrice-named-wife, there is no difference between the person named Cindy, the person named Mary, and the person named Emily---THEY ARE THE SAME. Each name refers to the same person, each name knows exactly the same as the other two, because all names are the same person.

Yet, if Jesus is GOD, and if the Spirit is GOD, and if the Father is GOD, they do not all know the same things.

BTW, can you deny that Peter refers to the Holy Spirit as GOD, in Acts 5:3 & 4? To whom did they lie---GOD or the HOLY SPIRIT?

posted by ed to ben: "You are TWISTING John 17:3. Does it say "God is the ONLY God?" No Ben, that's NOT what the verse is saying. It says, "that they may know YOU (referring to the Father), the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU (again, referring to the Father) have SENT." The verse is CLEARLY and unequivocbly SAYING that the Father ALONE is the ONLY true God.

Ed... the Father is the only True God... yes... and Christ is that very same God who through His love for us took the nature of a man. God... obviously can not become sin... but this was necessary to become the sacrifice as explained in Hebrews. Therefore He took the nature of a man... made Himself nothing... became subservient to death... in reality becoming subservient to Himself being the Father. This is why Christ prayed as He did... because His sacrifice (on the cross/taking man's nature/taking off the 'position' of being God) for us was out of PERFECT LOVE= (GOD) and necessary. The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

posted by ed to ben: "Your premise that Jesus is PART of that ONE being known as God is FALSE. That ONE being known as God is the Father. And Jesus is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from the Father. He is NOT part of the Father, the ONLY true God."

well ed... then explain the most recent reply to your most recent 'responce':



Posted by edpobre: “The Lord of Glory is Jesus. Don't you know that God MADE Jesus LORD? Read Acts 2:36.”

Here ed… you are contradicting every part of: I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)

What does the LORD say ed? He says that He will NOT do what you are saying He did. Explain that one. Of course… that is unless they are one in the same (which they are)

Posted by edpobre: “If you THINK God the Father BECAME Jesus because of YOUR interpretation of these verses, then answer me HONESTLY fow, who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1”

Here ed… lets let everyone read this and see what they see… how about it?

“The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

You ask: “Who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1?” Your dimensional understanding does not limit the Father ed. He is the LORD of LORDS… He is the Alpha and the Omega… the Beginning and the End… the First and the Last… He is the Living God who says that there are no others but Him. He is the Savior… He is the Redeemer. All of these things Christ claims as well.

However… you say that God made Him these things… and that He gave all of this to Christ. Ah ha, but ed… that contradicts the very character of God… He says that He will NOT give these things to another… He says that there are no others but Him. Therefore Christ is God the Father who TOOK the nature of a man, out of His own Love… He says that He made HIMSELF a man… no one else did this to Him. God did not make… some sub-god a man… He made HIMSELF a man. This is the Father to whom the one who came from the Father prayed to during the time that He made Himself nothing.

Posted by edpobre: “While it is true that Jesus (the MAN into which the WORD that was God BECAME) is the WORD of God”

You say that the Word is God… and that it came into a man. However, God says that The “He” (the “He” that you refer to as a mere man) was with God in the Beginning. So, basically… the “Word was God” refers to this “He” who was with God in the Beginning.

(In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.)

Posted by edpobre: “show me a scripture which says that <I>Jesus WAS the WORD</I> that was God <I>BEFORE he WAS born.</I>”

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Posted by edpobre: “Apostle Paul SAID: there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)”

Here… I will post the verse for you ed: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and from whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

First of all… read the verse… tell me… do you think that this verse is saying that they are two different beings? It is not… Furthermore… this does explain exactly what we have been discussing here. God the Father had to fulfill His covenant. He had to become the ultimate sacrifice for man… you want to see this in the Bible? >>> Here you go: The Bible says, (Hebrews 9:16-17), In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Through what was man made (as the verse indicates)? I say that it was through Love that God created us. (Remember through Him all things were made that have been made: John 1) Also, 1 John 4:9—“This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him.” 1 John 4:19—“We love because He first loved us.” I also know that God is love (1 John 4:8 and 4:16) This “Love” whom He is… desired to become our sacrifice: (Remember… the greatest love is willing to lay down his own life for his friend)… Importance on “HIS OWN.” You may say… God will not make Himself nothing therefore being able to sacrifice Himself. Why ed? Is God unwilling to do this? Is He too self-seeking to allow Himself to become humble and submit Himself to death? How would this be if Love is not self-seeking, and God is Love? (1 Corinthians 13:5)

Therefore: From an earlier post---When God made Himself a man... it was love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. (Which is why you see Him in subservience to the Father) This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendable love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Posted by edpobre: “Sure, God and Jesus are BOTH Alpha and Omega. They BOTH said "I am the Alpha and the Omega." But that does NOT make them ONE God. Alpha and Omega does NOT mean the same to God as it means to Jesus.”

Really… according to whom ed? Are you now speaking for Christ… saying what He is and is not? I simply believe what He says. I believe what He says to me through His Spirit. And I believe what He says in His word. I do not try to twist things around as you do. And if you say you haven’t, then answer all of the questions pertaining to Isaiah 42:8

Posted by edpobre: “Show me the verse that says "God MADE Himself a MAN.”

Well ed… Christ, in the word of God, says that He made HIMSELF nothing. The word does not say some separate being made Him nothing… it says He made Himself nothing. You seem to indicate that God gave some other being everything indicated in the above posts (coming with info straight out of the word)… The problem is that God HIMSELF says that He will NOT do exactly what you say He did. Here-- The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Posted by edpobre: “Earlier, you said that God the Father BECAME Jesus Christ. Now you are saying that Christ BECAME subject to God the Father.”

Well ed… the Bible says that the Word (who was God) became flesh. It is the flesh (who was God) that became subservient to the very God (the only God) from whom He came.

Posted by edpobre: “ Christ will SUBJECT himself to HIM (meaning God) who placed ALL things under his feet (1 Cor. 15:28). Finally, God will again become "Lord of Lords."

You say “again” meaning that there was time when He was not… a time where it was Christ. However, this again contradicts the nature of God. He says that HE WILL NOT give His glory to another. Yet Christ is the Lord of Glory. This can only mean that Christ is the same as the one who spoke this: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

The fact is ed, that you are indeed wrong. You have allowed darkness to pervert what God says. Believe Him ed!

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe

hello edward... I find it somewhat humerous that you did not address the post ed... are they things that you did not want to attempt to twist because you knew it would be an obvious effort on your part?

Posted by edpobre: "You are saying that Christ is God the Father who BECAME Christ and Christ BECAME subservient to HIMSELF being the Father, right? Thus, when Christ lifted his eyes to heaven and SAID, "Father, the hour has come..." (John 17:1), he was ACTUALLY praying to himself, he being the Father, right? And he was also crying out to himself on the cross when he said, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Your belief is FALSE fow. Christ CAME as a HUMAN being and anyone that says he CAME as God the Father who BECAME a MAN has the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ (1 John 4:1-3)."


According to you. You have no way of proving how it is 'false', and acctually... I have proven that your's is. You seem to think it impossible for God to take the nature of man... and come to earth in the flesh as He did indeed do. I notice that you conveniently never address a certain aspect of Hebrews... but we will get to that later.


Posted by edpobre: "Look at Hebrews 9:14 fow. It says, "Christ offered HIMSELF unblemished TO God. If Christ were God, there would be TWO Gods which is NOT what the Bible teaches."

Once again... only in your view does it mean there are two of anything. Christ obviously took off the 'robe' of being God to take on the 'robe' of sin. He submitted Himself to God, from whom He came (get it... whom He was, from whom He came), to be able to sacrifice Himself for us. Here is the Hebrews aspect ed... In Hebrews... the verse is posted in the other posts... it says that the sacrifice was necessary because the covenant could not go into effect until the ONE WHO MADE IT was still living. I ask you ed!!! WHO MADE THE COVENANT!!!???

Posted by edpobre: "Did you read Acts 2:36? Doesn't it say that God MADE Jesus both "LORD and Christ?"

Ed... you are not grasping what took place. Do you think that God... once He took the nature of man... made Himself nothing... now being the Christ... could He do anything on His own??? No... The Father... (remember...from whom He came)... did indeed make Him Lord. The Christ... was nothing, remember? (Made HIMSELF nothing phil 2) And furhermore... this again contrasts Isaiah 42:8...

Posted by edpobre: "How can God and Jesus be the SAME"

Simple... they must be according to God's word: (Hebrews 9:14,16-17) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Did God not Make the covenant ed?

Posted by ed: "John 14:5-10 does NOT tell us that Jesus is God the Father"

According to you ed... but lets see what others see if they read it huh?
The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."


Posted by ed: "The "HE" refers to the MAN that the WORD of God turned into. The WORD has NO gender fow, just to let you know.
Rev. 19:13 refers to Jesus. Jesus is the MAN that the WORD turned into (the WORD became Jesus, remember?). Thus, Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. This is NOT what I am asking for."

Really... well this 'man' was with God in the beginning... through this 'man' all things were made... and without Him NOTHING was made that has been made. This 'man' was given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Would this not be an example of God giving His glory to 'another'. Do you not claim that Christ is 'another' If He is not God (as you claim), then He would be 'another'... and this would not be 'glory'... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS??? HE IS GOD who became like a man... took our nature.

This 'man' is described here ed... lets let others see what it says... they should be able to tell since God is not the author of confusion: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Posted by ed: "But anyone can see that everything you have posted so far are TWISTED interpretation of Isaiah 48:2."

Really ed??? Well lets get a post of that verse on down here... here we go: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

now you state they are two different things... yet... God makes Christ... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the Lord of Glory... Thomas cries out to Him 'my Lord and my God'... the Prince of Peace... the Redeemer... the Holy One of Israel... In Hebrews the Father says about the Son... "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever."

If they are two different beings as YOU state... then God is indeed giving His glory to another... those titles are diety are they not? But this would contradict God's own words.

The fact is that Christ is indeed God who became like man... making Himself nothing... God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God... Yet Christ is also called God by God.

So, since you were not able to pick the earlier post apart and show how anything that was said, was false... Here is another chance:

Posted by edpobre: “The Lord of Glory is Jesus. Don't you know that God MADE Jesus LORD? Read Acts 2:36.”

Here ed… you are contradicting every part of: I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)

What does the LORD say ed? He says that He will NOT do what you are saying He did. Explain that one. Of course… that is unless they are one in the same (which they are)

Posted by edpobre: “If you THINK God the Father BECAME Jesus because of YOUR interpretation of these verses, then answer me HONESTLY fow, who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1”

Here ed… lets let everyone read this and see what they see… how about it?

“The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

You ask: “Who is the Father to whom Jesus was praying in John 17:1?” Your dimensional understanding does not limit the Father ed. He is the LORD of LORDS… He is the Alpha and the Omega… the Beginning and the End… the First and the Last… He is the Living God who says that there are no others but Him. He is the Savior… He is the Redeemer. All of these things Christ claims as well.

However… you say that God made Him these things… and that He gave all of this to Christ. Ah ha, but ed… that contradicts the very character of God… He says that He will NOT give these things to another… He says that there are no others but Him. Therefore Christ is God the Father who TOOK the nature of a man, out of His own Love… He says that He made HIMSELF a man… no one else did this to Him. God did not make… some sub-god a man… He made HIMSELF a man. This is the Father to whom the one who came from the Father prayed to during the time that He made Himself nothing.

Posted by edpobre: “While it is true that Jesus (the MAN into which the WORD that was God BECAME) is the WORD of God”

You say that the Word is God… and that it came into a man. However, God says that The “He” (the “He” that you refer to as a mere man) was with God in the Beginning. So, basically… the “Word was God” refers to this “He” who was with God in the Beginning.

(In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.)

Posted by edpobre: “show me a scripture which says that <I>Jesus WAS the WORD</I> that was God <I>BEFORE he WAS born.</I>”

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Posted by edpobre: “Apostle Paul SAID: there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)”

Here… I will post the verse for you ed: “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and from whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

First of all… read the verse… tell me… do you think that this verse is saying that they are two different beings? It is not… Furthermore… this does explain exactly what we have been discussing here. God the Father had to fulfill His covenant. He had to become the ultimate sacrifice for man… you want to see this in the Bible? >>> Here you go: The Bible says, (Hebrews 9:16-17), In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Through what was man made (as the verse indicates)? I say that it was through Love that God created us. (Remember through Him all things were made that have been made: John 1) Also, 1 John 4:9—“This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him.” 1 John 4:19—“We love because He first loved us.” I also know that God is love (1 John 4:8 and 4:16) This “Love” whom He is… desired to become our sacrifice: (Remember… the greatest love is willing to lay down his own life for his friend)… Importance on “HIS OWN.” You may say… God will not make Himself nothing therefore being able to sacrifice Himself. Why ed? Is God unwilling to do this? Is He too self-seeking to allow Himself to become humble and submit Himself to death? How would this be if Love is not self-seeking, and God is Love? (1 Corinthians 13:5)

Therefore: From an earlier post---When God made Himself a man... it was love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. (Which is why you see Him in subservience to the Father) This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendable love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Posted by edpobre: “Sure, God and Jesus are BOTH Alpha and Omega. They BOTH said "I am the Alpha and the Omega." But that does NOT make them ONE God. Alpha and Omega does NOT mean the same to God as it means to Jesus.”

Really… according to whom ed? Are you now speaking for Christ… saying what He is and is not? I simply believe what He says. I believe what He says to me through His Spirit. And I believe what He says in His word. I do not try to twist things around as you do. And if you say you haven’t, then answer all of the questions pertaining to Isaiah 42:8

Posted by edpobre: “Show me the verse that says "God MADE Himself a MAN.”

Well ed… Christ, in the word of God, says that He made HIMSELF nothing. The word does not say some separate being made Him nothing… it says He made Himself nothing. You seem to indicate that God gave some other being everything indicated in the above posts (coming with info straight out of the word)… The problem is that God HIMSELF says that He will NOT do exactly what you say He did. Here-- The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Posted by edpobre: “Earlier, you said that God the Father BECAME Jesus Christ. Now you are saying that Christ BECAME subject to God the Father.”

Well ed… the Bible says that the Word (who was God) became flesh. It is the flesh (who was God) that became subservient to the very God (the only God) from whom He came.

Posted by edpobre: “ Christ will SUBJECT himself to HIM (meaning God) who placed ALL things under his feet (1 Cor. 15:28). Finally, God will again become "Lord of Lords."

You say “again” meaning that there was time when He was not… a time where it was Christ. However, this again contradicts the nature of God. He says that HE WILL NOT give His glory to another. Yet Christ is the Lord of Glory. This can only mean that Christ is the same as the one who spoke this: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

The fact is ed, that you are indeed wrong. You have allowed darkness to pervert what God says. Believe Him ed!

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe

Oh... I thought that this was the latest reply to your latest post... and the reason that the 'earlier' post was included afterwards... was because you didn't really address it... you just put up some new(old) info

here ya go.

hello edward... I find it somewhat humerous that you did not address the post ed... are they things that you did not want to attempt to twist because you knew it would be an obvious effort on your part?

Posted by edpobre: "You are saying that Christ is God the Father who BECAME Christ and Christ BECAME subservient to HIMSELF being the Father, right? Thus, when Christ lifted his eyes to heaven and SAID, "Father, the hour has come..." (John 17:1), he was ACTUALLY praying to himself, he being the Father, right? And he was also crying out to himself on the cross when he said, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Your belief is FALSE fow. Christ CAME as a HUMAN being and anyone that says he CAME as God the Father who BECAME a MAN has the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ (1 John 4:1-3)."


According to you. You have no way of proving how it is 'false', and acctually... I have proven that your's is. You seem to think it impossible for God to take the nature of man... and come to earth in the flesh as He did indeed do. I notice that you conveniently never address a certain aspect of Hebrews... but we will get to that later.


Posted by edpobre: "Look at Hebrews 9:14 fow. It says, "Christ offered HIMSELF unblemished TO God. If Christ were God, there would be TWO Gods which is NOT what the Bible teaches."

Once again... only in your view does it mean there are two of anything. Christ obviously took off the 'robe' of being God to take on the 'robe' of sin. He submitted Himself to God, from whom He came (get it... whom He was, from whom He came), to be able to sacrifice Himself for us. Here is the Hebrews aspect ed... In Hebrews... the verse is posted in the other posts... it says that the sacrifice was necessary because the covenant could not go into effect until the ONE WHO MADE IT was still living. I ask you ed!!! WHO MADE THE COVENANT!!!???

Posted by edpobre: "Did you read Acts 2:36? Doesn't it say that God MADE Jesus both "LORD and Christ?"

Ed... you are not grasping what took place. Do you think that God... once He took the nature of man... made Himself nothing... now being the Christ... could He do anything on His own??? No... The Father... (remember...from whom He came)... did indeed make Him Lord. The Christ... was nothing, remember? (Made HIMSELF nothing phil 2) And furhermore... this again contrasts Isaiah 42:8...

Posted by edpobre: "How can God and Jesus be the SAME"

Simple... they must be according to God's word: (Hebrews 9:14,16-17) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Did God not Make the covenant ed?

Posted by ed: "John 14:5-10 does NOT tell us that Jesus is God the Father"

According to you ed... but lets see what others see if they read it huh?
The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."


Posted by ed: "The "HE" refers to the MAN that the WORD of God turned into. The WORD has NO gender fow, just to let you know.
Rev. 19:13 refers to Jesus. Jesus is the MAN that the WORD turned into (the WORD became Jesus, remember?). Thus, Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. This is NOT what I am asking for."

Really... well this 'man' was with God in the beginning... through this 'man' all things were made... and without Him NOTHING was made that has been made. This 'man' was given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Would this not be an example of God giving His glory to 'another'. Do you not claim that Christ is 'another' If He is not God (as you claim), then He would be 'another'... and this would not be 'glory'... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS??? HE IS GOD who became like a man... took our nature.

This 'man' is described here ed... lets let others see what it says... they should be able to tell since God is not the author of confusion: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Posted by ed: "But anyone can see that everything you have posted so far are TWISTED interpretation of Isaiah 48:2."

Really ed??? Well lets get a post of that verse on down here... here we go: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

now you state they are two different things... yet... God makes Christ... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the Lord of Glory... Thomas cries out to Him 'my Lord and my God'... the Prince of Peace... the Redeemer... the Holy One of Israel... In Hebrews the Father says about the Son... "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever."

If they are two different beings as YOU state... then God is indeed giving His glory to another... those titles are diety are they not? But this would contradict God's own words.

The fact is that Christ is indeed God who became like man... making Himself nothing... God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God... Yet Christ is also called God by God.

I believe

Hey, Fieldsofwind. I don't suppose you'd mind if I jumped in here to fight alongside you, would ya?

Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus=God.

Jesus himself claimed to be Yahweh. He prayed, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the Old Testament said, “I will not give my glory to another” (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus also declared “I am the first and the last” (Revelation 1:17)—precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 42:8. Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11), but the Old Testament said, “Yahweh is my shepherd” (Psalms 23:1). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people (Matthew 25:31f; John 5:27), but Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, “for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side” (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of himself as the “bridegroom” (Matthew 25:1) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, “The Lord is my light” (Psalms 27:1), Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8:12).

Another claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58, and 10:31-33). The same claim is made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Exodus 20:1-4; Deuteronomy 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that humans refused worship (Acts 14:15), as did angels (Revelation 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, showing he claimed to be God. A healed leper worshiped him (Matthew 8:2), a group of Canaanite women (Matthew 15:25), the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20), the Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6), all worshiped Jesus without a word of rebuke. The disciples worshiped him after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17). This could only be allowed by a person who seriously considered himself to be God. Not only did Jesus accept this worship due to God alone without rebuking those who gave it, but he even commended those who acknowledged his deity (John 20:29, Matthew 16:17).

This is also not to mention very clear verses where Jesus is flat out addressed as God in such examples as Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8.

ed hasn't gotten the point yet... Every verse he puts out there agrees with Christ being God who became like a man to become our sin. He submitted Himself to death. He, of course, had to be made Lord after this... and indeed He was... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS whose claims the title of the Word of God as spoken of in John 1. These things would represent God giving His glory to another for edpobre's opinions to be true. However, God says Himself that He will not do that at all! Or course He didn't give His glory to 'ANOTHER' anyways... because Christ is God who took the nature of a man to sacrifice Himself to the Father (from whom He came) for us. SIMPLE!!! PERFECT!!!

Ed cannot explain these things away... he simply states His ideas... and backs them up with zero scripture. He says... "hey look... Christ called God the Only True God." And, of course this is true... and Christ is also that same Only True God who took off the title of being the Only True God and put on the title of nothingness... like a man. This is why He prayed to the Father as He did. It was His sacrifice to submit Himself as He did. Ed will say... but God cannot do that... thats obsurd. But God says that He did... He became like man...in the Son... while still being the Father in Heaven.

That is why the bible tells of the Son as it does. It is perfect

I believe

take care

FOW

Originally posted by OldShepherd
These persons are not omnipotent, and there is no record of all the same characterisics being ascribed to them so this asinine drivel falls apart at the very beginning.

Click to expand...

Temper, temper, Shepherd. I know that, you as a 'trinitarian' Christian are exempt from the general guidelines on these forums but you should limit your insults. It's not very Christian of you.

While on the topic of 'asinine drivel' let me bring up a couple points for your enjoyment.

Jesus was not omnipotent. All things he did was by the authority given to him by the Father.

Jesus was also not omniscient. There were things hidden from him that only the Father knows.

The 'holy spirit' is not a separte person-god. It's just a description of the one God's activity.


So you see, by applying your own standard, the trinity falls apart at the very beginning.

and dear kain... refer to the countless posts to ed by some field guy... all your questions are addressed... thanks...

have a nice day

FOW