Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

parousia70 · Nov 4, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
JUSTIFICATION comes AFTER one is redeemed through the blood of Christ, forgiven of his sins and receives adoption as son of God (Gal. 4:4-6; cf. Titus 3:4-7).

Those who are JUSTIFIED are SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise who is the GUARANTEE of inheritance until the REDEMPTION of the purchased possession (Eph. 1:14).

SALVATION is eternal life in the new Jerusalem when children of God meet Jesus in the air when he COMES the SECOND time (Heb. 9:28) to be with him for ever. They will be SAVED from God's WRATH on judgment day (2 Peter 3:7),.

Ed

 

So Ed,
Just so I'm clear about what you are saying,

You aren't actually "saved" yet, you just have been promised salvation at some future date?

You are not actually "redeemed" yet, you just have been promised "redemption" at some future date?

You do not actually have "eternal life" yet, but are only in posession of a promise that "eternal life" will be bestowed upon you at some future date?

Thanks,
P70

Athanasius · Nov 4, 2002

Originally posted by PreteristArchive
In other words, the believers (whether alive or "asleep") were waiting to be redeemed from spiritual death (cf. Gen 2:17) and the grave, which victory was not yet given at the cross, or at Pentecost (cf. I Cor. 15:54-57) - and that it was going to be given only at the return of Christ.

I agree that prior to the coming of Christ, believers still wait to be redeemed from the grave. Of course, I believe that the dead in Christ are still waiting for that. But I strongly disagree with your contention that the believers prior to 70 AD were still waiting to be redeemed from spiritual death. Consider the past tense of the following verses written or spoken prior to 70 AD:

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Scripture plainly teaches that the gift of spiritual rebirth, spiritual resurrection, spiritual adoption, and eternal spiritual life was received upon one coming to faith in Christ. The adoption, salvation, and redemption of our bodies, however, awaits the first resurrection, at Christ's return. 

 

Hoonbaba · Nov 4, 2002

Hi Athanasius

I just thought I'd share a few thoughts.

Originally posted by Athanasius
Scripture teaches that the saints will come with the clouds with Jesus when He returns:  "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" Jude 1:14

Honestly I never noticed that word 'saints' in Jude 1:14.  Other translations say it refers to 'holy ones' as in holy angels, and Jesus' coming with his holy angels seem to be a direct parallel (Matt 25:31).  I think I'll be thinking about the word 'saints' for a while

In anycase, I noticed how you made a reference to Jude quoting Enoch.  That quote is directly from a nonbiblical text, the Book of Enoch.  I thought I'd mention the following, even though it's somewhat irrelevant:

(I posted the following somewhere else a while ago)

If (and this is a BIG if) 1 Enoch is indeed scripture, then we can understand why 1 Enoch was directly quoted by Jude (see 1 Enoch 1:9 and Jude 1:14-15). Also keep in mind that, the Bible also quotes other nonbiblical texts. Anyway, let's consider something:

1 Enoch makes a VERY strange claim:

"And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, Till the day of their judgment and of their consummation" (1 Enoch 10:11-12)

So basically 1 Enoch is saying that the judgment is seventy generations from Enoch. Again, note that preterists hold that the judgment happened in 70AD (about a jewish-40-year-generation from when Jesus died). Now, Luke claims to have "traced the course of all things accurately from the first" (Luke 1:1-4).

Here's that 'freaky' part:

There are exactly seventy generations from the generation of Enoch to the generation of Jesus Christ (Luke 3:23-37)

Let's check:

01 Jesus
02 Joseph
03 Heli
04 Matthat
05 Levi
06 Melki
07 Jannai
08 Joseph
09 Mattathias
10 Amos
11 Nahum
12 Esli
13 Naggai
14 Maath
15 Mattathias
16 Semein
17 Josech
18 Joda
19 Joanan
20 Rhesa
21 Zerubbabel
22 Shealtiel
23 Neri
24 Melki
25 Addi
26 Cosam
27 Elmadam
28 Er
29 Joshua
30 Eliezer
31 Jorim
32 Matthat
33 Levi
34 Simeon
35 Judah
36 Joseph
37 Jonam
38 Eliakim
39 Melea
40 Menna
41 Mattatha
42 Nathan
43 David
44 Jesse
45 Obed
46 Boaz
47 Salmon
48 Nahshon
49 Amminadab
50 Ram
51 Hezron
52 Perez
53 Judah
54 Jacob
55 Isaac
56 Abraham
57 Terah
58 Nahor
59 Serug
60 Reu
61 Peleg
62 Eber
63 Shelah
64 Cainan
65 Arphaxad
66 Shem
67 Noah
68 Lamech
69 Methuselah
70 Enoch

Weird isn't it!?!? I think this would actually confirm the preterist interpretation.  Also, keep in mind 1 Enoch was supposedly written long before the time of Jesus. I personally don't know what to think about 1 Enoch, even with the 70 generations phenomena fitting my eschatological position. I haven't read it yet =P

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Nov 4, 2002

Originally posted by Athanasius
I agree that prior to the coming of Christ, believers still wait to be redeemed from the grave. Of course, I believe that the dead in Christ are still waiting for that. But I strongly disagree with your contention that the believers prior to 70 AD were still waiting to be redeemed from spiritual death. Consider the past tense of the following verses written or spoken prior to 70 AD:

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Scripture plainly teaches that the gift of spiritual rebirth, spiritual resurrection, spiritual adoption, and eternal spiritual life was received upon one coming to faith in Christ. The adoption, salvation, and redemption of our bodies, however, awaits the first resurrection, at Christ's return. 

 

Hi Athanasius,

Scripture also reveals that believers are not only saved (Eph 2:8), but that they are being saved (1 Cor 1:18), and that they will be saved (Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13).  This explains why Catholics emphasize the need to 'work out one's salvation' (Phil 2:18) seeing how they look at salvation as a process rather than a one time faith professing deal.

What are your thoughts on this?

God bless!

-Jason

Athanasius · Nov 4, 2002

Hi Jason,

I've got a copy of 1 Enoch, and have done a good deal of reading in it. There are many good reasons why it did not make it into the canon. While parts of it seem scriptural and are devotionally valuable, it has some blatant errors in it, especially when the writer attempts to explain some of the mysteries of nature that have since been explained by science.

However, the portion of it that we also find in Jude must be inspired. There is disagreement among scholars as to when 1 Enoch was written. It may have been written after the book of Jude was written, and use Jude as the source of this verse. Or 1 Enoch may in fact borrow from a source document that both it and Jude use as a common source. Lastly, Jude may simply be quoting from a book that is only partly inspired.

But if the 70 generations part of it is also inspired, did not Jesus judge sin by his death on the cross?

Romans 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Athanasius · Nov 4, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hi Athanasius,

Scripture also reveals that believers are not only saved (Eph 2:8), but that they are being saved (1 Cor 1:18), and that they will be saved (Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13).  This explains why Catholics emphasize the need to 'work out one's salvation' (Phil 2:18) seeing how they look at salvation as a process rather than a one time faith professing deal.

What are your thoughts on this?

God bless!

-Jason

Great observation! I agree with that, although Futurists and Full Preterists will disagree on the details of how this takes place. I think that all true believers are being transformed into His Image, and that is part of the salvation process:

2 Corinthians 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

If you are drowning, in a sense, you are saved as soon as the Lifeguard grabs you, even though he still has to get you to the shore, at which point your salvation from drowning is complete.

 

Hoonbaba · Nov 4, 2002

Originally posted by Athanasius
Hi Jason,

I've got a copy of 1 Enoch, and have done a good deal of reading in it. There are many good reasons why it did not make it into the canon. While parts of it seem scriptural and are devotionally valuable, it has some blatant errors in it, especially when the writer attempts to explain some of the mysteries of nature that have since been explained by science.

However, the portion of it that we also find in Jude must be inspired. There is disagreement among scholars as to when 1 Enoch was written. It may have been written after the book of Jude was written, and use Jude as the source of this verse. Or 1 Enoch may in fact borrow from a source document that both it and Jude use as a common source. Lastly, Jude may simply be quoting from a book that is only partly inspired.

But if the 70 generations part of it is also inspired, did not Jesus judge sin by his death on the cross?

Romans 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hi Athanasius,

Thanks for sharing about Enoch =)

Anyway, the problem I see with already/not yet is that very question you asked.  Scripture tells us emphatically that we are saved and that sin is judged by Christ's death, yet redemption was something of the future (Heb 9:23-27), which confuses me

The author of Hebrews seems to point back to Lev 16 which describes the 'day of atonement', and makes a typological connection with Jesus and how he would 'come a second time' to bring righteousness, much like how the Old testament high priest would come out and the high priest's 'coming' would be a great time of rejoicing, since it meant the people's sins were not only atoned for, but accepted by God.  It makes sense from that perspective, but to say that salvation was available and somehow still future really confuses my mind

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Nov 4, 2002

Originally posted by Athanasius
Great observation! I agree with that, although Futurists and Full Preterists will disagree on the details of how this takes place. I think that all true believers are being transformed into His Image, and that is part of the salvation process:

2 Corinthians 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

If you are drowning, in a sense, you are saved as soon as the Lifeguard grabs you, even though he still has to get you to the shore, at which point your salvation from drowning is complete.

 

Hi Athanasius,

Even though I'm a full preterist, I still find it necessary for us to continually remain in Him.  And thanks for sharing 2 Cor 3:18

Somehow I overlooked the part that says, "from glory to glory"!  Wow.....that's incredible! =)

God bless!

-Jason

edpobre · Nov 5, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
So Ed,
Just so I'm clear about what you are saying,

You aren't actually "saved" yet, you just have been promised salvation at some future date?

You are not actually "redeemed" yet, you just have been promised "redemption" at some future date?

You do not actually have "eternal life" yet, but are only in posession of a promise that "eternal life" will be bestowed upon you at some future date?

Thanks,
P70

I have been REDEEMED through the blood of Christ and have received FORGIVENESS of my sins (Col. 1:13-14), thereby making me an adopted son of God (Gal. 4:4-6).

However, Jesus said that only those who ENDURE until the END will be saved (Matt. 24:13). I have to REMAIN a BRANCH of the VINE (John 15:1, 5-6) UNTIL the end of my natural life or the END of the world whichever comes first.

As an adopted son of God, I am an heir and co-heir with Christ in God's promise according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7). 

SALVATION means to be saved from God's WRATH on judgment day when God will destroy UNGODLY men (2 Peter 3:7).

ETERNAL LIFE means "there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, and there shll be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

These will be fulfilled on Christ's SECOND coming or JUDGMENT day or END of the world when the heavens and the earth that now exist will pass away, UNGODLY men will burn, and those who are DEAD "IN Christ" will RISE first, and TOGETHER with those who are ALIVE and remain, will meet Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Don't Preterists feel any more pain nor sorrow? The more IMPORTANT question, however is, how sure are they of their salvation? Are they WORTHY of salvation? Have they been REDEEMED through the blood of Christ? Have they received adoption as children of God?

Ed

davo · Nov 5, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Don't Preterists feel any more pain nor sorrow? The more IMPORTANT question, however is, how sure are they of their salvation? Are they WORTHY of salvation? Have they been REDEEMED through the blood of Christ? Have they received adoption as children of God?

G'day Ed

lots of good questions there mate.

Folk who hold to "covenant eschatology" most definitely, like your self and everybody else, have moments where we experience the pains tears and sorrows of this earthly life - that's normal. What the apostle John refers to in Rev has to do with "no more sorrow" etc of the continual unforgiveness of sin under the Old Covenant. This "in Christ" however is now no longer a problem as he has redeemed us from the curse of the Law.

We are most definitely assured of our salvation by virtue of the fact that Christ DID return on time as he promised. The believers in that generation had the "promise" or hope of salvation [read Gal 5:5] - they were "waiting" for it. Paul says elsewhere that we don't hope for what we have - clear evidence that salvation was NOT a completed reality at that time, but would be when Christ returned - and if he is still yet to return as per your theory, then your salvation is still yet incomplete and so you must still be lost in your sins. The good news is, salvation is complete as Jesus is here - he returned.

Jesus came not to condemn the world, but that through him the world might be saved - Christ's sacrifice makes all worthy of salvation.

Originally posted by edpobre
However, Jesus said that only those who ENDURE until the END will be saved (Matt. 24:13). I have to REMAIN a BRANCH of the VINE (John 15:1, 5-6) UNTIL the end of my natural life or the END of the world whichever comes first.

So Ed, how comfortable and assured are you in your salvation? Seeing as you have to endure to the end, you have to remain in the vine etc, sounds like a lot of hard work - yet works don't work, grace does. Not only that, you have to keep this going all your life till the end, cause if you slip up, well bummer, you've done your dash, you've missed it, you're on the slippery slope down down down - what a lot of heart ache, head ache and sorrow - that sounds just like the "sorrow, pain and tears" of the Old Covenant world of works that Jesus came to set us free from - go figure

davo

parousia70 · Nov 5, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
These will be fulfilled on Christ's SECOND coming or JUDGMENT day or END of the world when the heavens and the earth that now exist will pass away, UNGODLY men will burn, and those who are DEAD "IN Christ" will RISE first, and TOGETHER with those who are ALIVE and remain, will meet Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Ed

Actually Ed, that verse says the dead in Christ rise first, followed, at a later time, by those who are alive and remain.

Nothing in that verse says anything about it all happening at the same moment.

edpobre · Nov 5, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70

Originally posted by edpobre
These will be fulfilled on Christ's SECOND coming or JUDGMENT day or END of the world when the heavens and the earth that now exist will pass away, UNGODLY men will burn, and those who are DEAD "IN Christ" will RISE first, and TOGETHER with those who are ALIVE and remain, will meet Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Ed

Click to expand...



Actually Ed, that verse says the dead in Christ rise first, followed, at a later time, by those who are alive and remain.

Nothing in that verse says anything about it all happening at the same moment.

What you are saying is CONTRARY to what is written in 1 Thes. 4:16-17::

"(16)For the Lord himself will DESCEND from HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the DEAD "IN" Christ will RISE first (meaning those who are dead but NOT "in" Christ will NOT rise).

(17)Then we who are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

There is NOTHING in these verses which indicate that those who are ALIVE and remain will meet Jesus at a later date. Anyone can readily SEE that the phrase "caught TOGETHERwith them" indicates the event happening at the SAME time.

Ed

 

Hoonbaba · Nov 5, 2002

I'm sure someone could easily interpret 'Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up' to be referring to immediately after the dead are raised, or long after the dead are raised.

The verse doesn't seem to indicate exactly when.  It just says, 'Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up' and nothing about it happening around the same time or way later.

-Jason

edpobre · Nov 5, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
I'm sure someone could easily interpret 'Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up' to be referring to immediately after the dead are raised, or long after the dead are raised.

The verse doesn't seem to indicate exactly when.  It just says, 'Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up' and nothing about it happening around the same time or way later.

-Jason

Let's have an objective  look at 1 Thes. 4:16-17 again: 

"(16)For the Lord himself will DESCEND from HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the DEAD "IN" Christ will RISE first (meaning those who are dead but NOT "in" Christ will NOT rise).

(17)Then we who are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Two questions have to be resolved here:

1. Do these verses teach that those who are ALIVE and REMAIN will die first BEFORE they are caught up to meet Jesus in the air?; and

2. Will those who are ALIVE and REMAIN be CAUGHT up at the SAME time with the DEAD "IN" Christ or later?

The phrase "caught up TOGETHER with them (NKJV)" or "gathered ALONG with them (TEV)" to MEET Jesus in the air provides the answer to these questions.

One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know what "TOGETHER" means.  For example, one says, "Mary and I will go to the movies." Another says Mary and I will go to the movies TOGETHER."

The first statement does NOT imply that Mary and I will go to the movies at the same time. It does NOT imply that Mary and I will accompany each other either. We may even be going with DIFFERENT partners.

The second statement DEFINITELY says the Mary and I will go to the movies at the SAME time. Not only that, the second statement IMPLIES that Mary and I will accompany each other and will probably sit side by side.

Ed

Hoonbaba · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Let's have an objective  look at 1 Thes. 4:16-17 again: 

"(16)For the Lord himself will DESCEND from HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the DEAD "IN" Christ will RISE first (meaning those who are dead but NOT "in" Christ will NOT rise).

(17)Then we who are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Two questions have to be resolved here:

1. Do these verses teach that those who are ALIVE and REMAIN will die first BEFORE they are caught up to meet Jesus in the air?; and

2. Will those who are ALIVE and REMAIN be CAUGHT up at the SAME time with the DEAD "IN" Christ or later?

The phrase "caught up TOGETHER with them (NKJV)" or "gathered ALONG with them (TEV)" to MEET Jesus in the air provides the answer to these questions.

One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know what "TOGETHER" means.  For example, one says, "Mary and I will go to the movies." Another says Mary and I will go to the movies TOGETHER."

The first statement does NOT imply that Mary and I will go to the movies at the same time. It does NOT imply that Mary and I will accompany each other either. We may even be going with DIFFERENT partners.

The second statement DEFINITELY says the Mary and I will go to the movies at the SAME time. Not only that, the second statement IMPLIES that Mary and I will accompany each other and will probably sit side by side.

Ed

I think your example doesn't exactly fit with:

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

I still don't see how it can't mean, "they'll be caught up together with them at a later time".  The verse leaves it ambiguous.

-Jason

edpobre · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

Originally posted by edpobre
Let's have an objective  look at 1 Thes. 4:16-17 again: 

"(16)For the Lord himself will DESCEND from HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the DEAD "IN" Christ will RISE first (meaning those who are dead but NOT "in" Christ will NOT rise).

(17Then we who are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Two questions have to be resolved here:

1. Do these verses teach that those who are ALIVE and REMAIN will die first BEFORE they are caught up to meet Jesus in the air?; and

2. Will those who are ALIVE and REMAIN be CAUGHT up at the SAME time with the DEAD "IN" Christ or later?

The phrase "caught up TOGETHER with them (NKJV)" or "gathered ALONG with them (TEV)" to MEET Jesus in the air provides the answer to these questions.

One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know what "TOGETHER" means.  For example, one says, "Mary and I will go to the movies." Another says Mary and I will go to the movies TOGETHER."

The first statement does NOT imply that Mary and I will go to the movies at the same time. It does NOT imply that Mary and I will accompany each other either. We may even be going with DIFFERENT partners.

The second statement DEFINITELY says the Mary and I will go to the movies at the SAME time. Not only that, the second statement IMPLIES that Mary and I will accompany each other and will probably sit side by side.

Ed

Click to expand...



I think your example doesn't exactly fit with:

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

I still don't see how it can't mean, "they'll be caught up together with them at a later time".  The verse leaves it ambiguous.

-Jason

Of course you still can't see because you are blinded by the false belief that those who are ALIVE and remain MUST die first BEFORE they are caught up and meet Jesus in the air. Even in everyday life, TOGETHER always means at the same time.

Even if the verse says "they'll be caught up together with them at a later time," they will still be caught up TOGETHER at the SAME time. But it does NOT make sense. What "later time" are we talking about?

There CANNOT be a later time for those who are ALIVE and remain to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.  The Bible has NO provisions for that.

What happens next is that those who meet Jesus in the air will always be with the Lord. And they will reign with the Lord 1000 years.

The next resurrection i(AFTER the 1000 years is finished - Rev. 20:5) is for those who were left out during the first resurrection and those who DIE (because they do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ - 2 Thes. 1:8-9) during the passing away of the old heavens and the melting of the earth and every work that is in it (2 Peter 3:10).

Ed

 

Hoonbaba · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre


I think your example doesn't exactly fit with:

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

I still don't see how it can't mean, "they'll be caught up together with them at a later time".  The verse leaves it ambiguous.

-Jason

Of course you still can't see because you are blinded by the false belief that those who are ALIVE and remain MUST die first BEFORE they are caught up and meet Jesus in the air. Even in everyday life, TOGETHER always means at the same time.

  [/QUOTE]

Hi Ed,

Honestly I think that comment was completely unnecessary. Sure I may be wrong, I'm willing to accept that. I'm willing to discuss these things. There's also 3 other major interpretations of Revelation other than the preterist view. I'm not claiming to be hundred percent right on everything. Nevertheless, accusing me of being blinded is unnecessary. I'm here to discuss, not to prove right or wrong.

http://www.christianforums.com/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=4#28

God bless!

-Jason

davo · Nov 6, 2002

1Thess 4:16-17

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Greek word "then" is -epeita- and means "after that or afterwards" - it does not necessitate an immediate chronological sequence of events eg.,

1Cor 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Gal 1:18, 21; 2:21
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.

1Cor 15:6-7
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

As can be seen by studying and comparing the Greek "then," they which were alive and remaining [till the end ie AD70] later followed in death and were thus joined together with then with Christ forever.

davo

parousia70 · Nov 6, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre


The next resurrection i(AFTER the 1000 years is finished - Rev. 20:5) is for those who were left out during the first resurrection and those who DIE (because they do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ - 2 Thes. 1:8-9) during the passing away of the old heavens and the melting of the earth and every work that is in it (2 Peter 3:10).

Ed

 

Uh, Ed?...

Better check the timeline on your supplied "proof texts" or they will come back to bite ya:

2 Peter 3:10 describes an event that ocourrs prior to the millennium in your particular eschatology.

According to Peter, the Heavens and earth "melt" on the "Day of the Lord" which "Comes as a Theif."

Now, we know from Paul that the "Day of the Lord which comes as a theif" is simultaineous with the resurrection of the Dead and the catching away of the Living.

Now if I'm not mistaken, you hold that "that Day" happens before the Millennium.

Just exactly how many "Theif comings" and"earth meltings" does your theology support?

edpobre · Nov 9, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

Of course you still can't see because you are blinded by the false belief that those who are ALIVE and remain MUST die first BEFORE they are caught up and meet Jesus in the air. Even in everyday life, TOGETHER always means at the same time.

 

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Hi Ed,

Honestly I think that comment was completely unnecessary. Sure I may be wrong, I'm willing to accept that. I'm willing to discuss these things. There's also 3 other major interpretations of Revelation other than the preterist view. I'm not claiming to be hundred percent right on everything. Nevertheless, accusing me of being blinded is unnecessary. I'm here to discuss, not to prove right or wrong.

http://www.christianforums.com/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=4#28

God bless!

-Jason [/B]

Ok then, I apologize for calling you blind. But are your eyes OPEN to the TRUTH that "together" ALWAYS mean "at the same time?"

Ed 

Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

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