Eph 1:1

Jim1 said:

Jeremiah contrasts the two covenants. He says that the New is not like the Old. One of the differences is that whereas in the Old, the participants constantly encouraged one another to know God, because none of them really knew Him, because they did not have His Spirit, but only His law, in the New, none of the participants have to encourage one another to know God, because all of the participants in the New Covenant have a personal knowledge of Him, because all of them, from the least to the greatest of them, have His Spirit. This is what we have seen ever since the cross. There is nothing in this prophecy that suggests that every Jew on the planet will accept this New Covenant with the house of Israel. The only thing that this prophecy requires is that all of the ones who do participate in this New Covenant have a personal knowledge of God, which is what has come to pass. This prophecy is being fulfilled. It began to be fulfilled at the cross, when Christ initiated this New Covenant, and it will continue to be fulfilled until the second advent of Christ. The partipants in this New Covenant are the ones who believe in the mediator of the New Covenant, namely, Christ.

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No, the principal difference between the new and the old is that under the old the people had to perform whereas under the new God does it all: He gives them a new heart, writes the law in their hearts, brings them back in the land, blesses them, etc...
And He does it to all: from the smallest to the greatest.
This happens when Christ comes back.

holdon said:

No, the principal difference between the new and the old is that under the old the people had to perform whereas under the new God does it all: He gives them a new heart, writes the law in their hearts, brings them back in the land, blesses them, etc...
And He does it to all: from the smallest to the greatest.
This happens when Christ comes back.

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That is not what the text of the Jeremiah prophecy says. You are imposing on the text your own ideas. The text does say that God writes His law in the hearts of the participants, and it does say that all of the participants know God, but it does not say the other things that you're saying. Those are you're ideas, not Jeremiah's. Further, all of the New Testament writers themselves apply the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, not to some future generation of Israel. Your application of the Jeremiah prophecy to a future generation of Israel instead of to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, like your other ideas, expresses your own thinking and does not agree with what the Biblical text itself says. You are reading into the Bible what you want it to say instead of accepting what it literally says. And now you're going to respond by repeating your own thinking, which you will yet again assert to be what the Bible says, even though the Biblical text itself doesn't say it. You have this dispensational filter in your mind through which you process whatever you read in the Bible, and you then present the result of this filtration as being what the Bible says. But it isn't what the Biblical text itself says; it's just dispensational filtrate, a dispensational distortion of what the Bible actually, literally says. Yes, I know that it's what you see when you read the Bible, but what you see and what the Biblical text says are two different things. Show me even one New Testament writer who expresses the idea that the Jeremiah prophecy is not being fulfilled now in us, the ones who now believe in Christ, but that it is going to be fulfilled later in a future generation of Israel. And I don't mean Romans 11:26-27, because I've already shown you how you've taken this passage out of its context and have given it the meaning that you want it to have. If your interpretation of this passage were correct, then what all of the other New Testament writers say about the Jeremiah prophecy would agree with your interpretation of this passage. So show me even one instance (other than your interpretation of Romans 11:26-27) of a New Testament writer waiting for a future generation of Israel to fulfill the Jeremiah prophecy.

Joel 3, Jere 30, Zech, 12-14, EZ 39, and myriads of other scriptures that foretell the regathering of these people before and after Christs coming to sit on His Earthly fathers throne pertaing to the what? FLESH! and who did Christ come to about things pertaining to the flesh?, and what was Christ ministery called while in the flesh? they are not the body of Christ that are complete in Him seated in heavenly places called before the foundations.


Replacement theology never gives up though.

Azeke.

Azeke said:

Joel 3, Jere 30, Zech, 12-14, EZ 39, and myriads of other scriptures that foretell the regathering of these people before and after Christs coming to sit on His Earthly fathers throne pertaing to the what? FLESH! and who did Christ come to about things pertaining to the flesh?, and what was Christ ministery called while in the flesh? they are not the body of Christ that are complete in Him seated in heavenly places called before the foundations.


Replacement theology never gives up though.

Azeke.

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Hi Azeke,

Maybe you could provide a statement from a New Testament writer that expresses the idea that he is expecting the Jeremiah prophecy regarding the New Covenant to be fulfilled, not in us, the ones who now believe in Christ, but in a future generation of Israel. That's what I'm requesting, because everything that I read in the New Testament expresses the idea that this prophecy is being fulfilled in us, the ones who now believe in Christ, and not in a future generation of Israel. The New Testament writers appear to disagree with the future-Israel interpretation of the prophecy. Anyone can cite from the Old Testament and impose his own interpretation on it. That's beside the point. The issue is what the New Testament writers themselves think and say about it.

Jim

Jim1 said:

That is not what the text of the Jeremiah prophecy says. You are imposing on the text your own ideas. The text does say that God writes His law in the hearts of the participants, and it does say that all of the participants know God, but it does not say the other things that you're saying.

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brings them back in the land,

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"I will build thee again, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel!"
"For there shall be a day, when the watchmen upon mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise, and let us go up to Zion, unto Jehovah our God. "
"Behold, I bring them from the north country, and gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth;"
"He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd his flock. "
"And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith Jehovah.

blesses them, etc...

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"He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd his flock. "
"for I will turn their mourning into gladness, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice after their sorrow. "

He does it to all: from the smallest to the greatest.

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"for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will pardon their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more."

This happens when Christ comes back.

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First there is a time of immense tribulation: Jacob's trouble.
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. " Compare Mt 24:21,22

Then the return of Christ: He is David that will sit on his throne again.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more reduce him to servitude. 30:9 But they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them." Compare Mt 24:29,30.

Then Israel will be restored in their land:
"O Israel: for behold, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and at ease, and none shall make him afraid." Compare Mt 24:31.

Those are you're ideas, not Jeremiah's. Further, all of the New Testament writers themselves apply the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ,

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Where?? I don't see the NT writers apply that prophecy to us.

holdon said:

"I will build thee again, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel!"
"For there shall be a day, when the watchmen upon mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise, and let us go up to Zion, unto Jehovah our God. "
"Behold, I bring them from the north country, and gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth;"
"He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd his flock. "
"And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith Jehovah.
"He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd his flock. "
"for I will turn their mourning into gladness, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice after their sorrow. "

"for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will pardon their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more." First there is a time of immense tribulation: Jacob's trouble.
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. " Compare Mt 24:21,22

Then the return of Christ: He is David that will sit on his throne again.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more reduce him to servitude. 30:9 But they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them." Compare Mt 24:29,30.

Then Israel will be restored in their land:
"O Israel: for behold, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and at ease, and none shall make him afraid." Compare Mt 24:31. Where?? I don't see the NT writers apply that prophecy to us.

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Hi holdon,

I'll simply repeat to you my message to Azeke, because you're doing the same thing that he's doing.

"Maybe you could provide a statement from a New Testament writer that expresses the idea that he is expecting the Jeremiah prophecy regarding the New Covenant to be fulfilled, not in us, the ones who now believe in Christ, but in a future generation of Israel. That's what I'm requesting, because everything that I read in the New Testament expresses the idea that this prophecy is being fulfilled in us, the ones who now believe in Christ, and not in a future generation of Israel. The New Testament writers appear to disagree with the future-Israel interpretation of the prophecy. Anyone can cite from the Old Testament and impose his own interpretation on it. That's beside the point. The issue is what the New Testament writers themselves think and say about it."

The truth is that you're always going to resort to your own interpretations of the Old Testament as a basis for your thinking, and you're never going to be able to provide what I've requested, because what I've requested doesn't exist, because all of the New Testament writers identify the Jeremiah prophecy regarding the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34 / 38:31-34 [LXX]) with us, the ones who now believe in Christ, not with a future generation of Israel. My conclusion is that the New Testament writers themselves correctly interpret the Jeremiah prophecy as applying to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, instead of applying it to a future generation of Israel, and that your interpretation of the Jeremiah prophecy as applying not to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, but to a future generation of Israel is incorrect. What I'm saying is that I think that the New Testament writers themselves are right about this and that you're wrong about it. You apparently think that you yourself are more enlightened about this than the New Testament writers themselves are, but I think that they are the enlightened ones and that you are just plain wrong. You can quote from the Old Testament and impose on those citations your own thinking as much as you wish, but none of that will ever change the fact that what you say and what the New Testament writers themselves say are two different things, and that between them and you, it is they, not you, who are enlightened.

This is everything that the New Testament writers say about God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel that is predicted by Jeremiah:

(ASV) Matthew 26:28 for this is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood, [even] that which is poured out for you.
1 Cor 11:25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
2 Cor 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remaineth, ... not being (unveiled), that it (the Old Covenant) is done away in Christ.
Galatians 4:24 Which things contain an allegory: for these ... are two Covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. ... 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him ... after the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman.
Ephesians 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, (excluded) from the (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the Covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Hebrews 7:22 by so much also hath Jesus become the surety of a better Covenant.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better Covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. 7 For if that first ... had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith ... I will make a New Covenant ... 9 Not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers ... For they continued not in my Covenant, And I regarded them not ... 10 For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ... I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people ...
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A New ... he hath made the first Old. But that which is (made old) and (becomes obsolete) is (near disappearance).
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a New Covenant, that, a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:18 Wherefore even the first ... hath not been dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to (concerning) us; for after he hath said, 16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them ... I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them ... 17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us ... 21 and ... a great priest over the house of God (whose house we are [3:6]), 22 let us draw near ... 23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope ...
Hebrews 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the Blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem ... 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven ... 24 and to Jesus the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.
Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the Blood of an eternal Covenant ... our Lord Jesus ...

All of the New Testament writers apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, not to a future generation of Israel. Your interpretations of the Old Testament will never change this fact. Never.

Jim

Jim1 said:

.

This is everything that the New Testament writers say about God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel that is predicted by Jeremiah:

(ASV) Matthew 26:28 for this is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood, [even] that which is poured out for you.
1 Cor 11:25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
2 Cor 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remaineth, ... not being (unveiled), that it (the Old Covenant) is done away in Christ.
Galatians 4:24 Which things contain an allegory: for these ... are two Covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. ... 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him ... after the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman.
Ephesians 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, (excluded) from the (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the Covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Hebrews 7:22 by so much also hath Jesus become the surety of a better Covenant.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better Covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. 7 For if that first ... had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith ... I will make a New Covenant ... 9 Not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers ... For they continued not in my Covenant, And I regarded them not ... 10 For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ... I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people ...
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A New ... he hath made the first Old. But that which is (made old) and (becomes obsolete) is (near disappearance).
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a New Covenant, that, a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:18 Wherefore even the first ... hath not been dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to (concerning) us; for after he hath said, 16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them ... I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them ... 17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us ... 21 and ... a great priest over the house of God (whose house we are [3:6]), 22 let us draw near ... 23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope ...
Hebrews 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the Blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem ... 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven ... 24 and to Jesus the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.
Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the Blood of an eternal Covenant ... our Lord Jesus ...

All of the New Testament writers apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, not to a future generation of Israel. Your interpretations of the Old Testament will never change this fact. Never.

Jim

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1. Well, you should perhaps look at what the Old Testament says about the New Covenant.
2. You say: "apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ". This is simply not true. I see no evidence of it. Are we the house of Israel and Judah? Are "our fathers" the fathers who made the old covenant"?
Are we living in the land of Israel? Have we been brought back to that country? Are we the seed of Israel? Does God not say that He will NOT cast off the people of Israel for "all they have done"??
3. Why don't you live in the country of Israel and be prosperous now?

Hi holdon,


Jim (previous):

This is everything that the New Testament writers say about God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel that is predicted by Jeremiah:

(ASV) Matthew 26:28 for this is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood, [even] that which is poured out for you.
1 Cor 11:25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
2 Cor 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.
2 Cor 3:14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remaineth, ... not being (unveiled), that it (the Old Covenant) is done away in Christ.
Galatians 4:24 Which things contain an allegory: for these ... are two Covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. ... 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him ... after the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman.
Ephesians 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, (excluded) from the (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the Covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Hebrews 7:22 by so much also hath Jesus become the surety of a better Covenant.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better Covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. 7 For if that first ... had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith ... I will make a New Covenant ... 9 Not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers ... For they continued not in my Covenant, And I regarded them not ... 10 For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ... I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people ...
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A New ... he hath made the first Old. But that which is (made old) and (becomes obsolete) is (near disappearance).
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a New Covenant, that, a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:18 Wherefore even the first ... hath not been dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to (concerning) us; for after he hath said, 16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them ... I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them ... 17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us ... 21 and ... a great priest over the house of God (whose house we are [3:6]), 22 let us draw near ... 23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope ...
Hebrews 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the Blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem ... 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven ... 24 and to Jesus the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.
Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the Blood of an eternal Covenant ... our Lord Jesus ...

All of the New Testament writers apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, not to a future generation of Israel. Your interpretations of the Old Testament will never change this fact. Never.


holdon (response):

Well, you should perhaps look at what the Old Testament says about the New Covenant.


Jim (this message):

You obviously don’t care what the New Testament says about the New Covenant.


holdon (response [continued]):

You say: "apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ.” This is simply not true. I see no evidence of it.


Jim (this message):

I see. So according to you, in Luke 22:20, where Jesus says, “This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood ... that which is poured out for you,” the referent of “you” is not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in 2 Corinthians 3:6, where Paul says, “who also made us sufficient as ministers of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life,” the ones to whom Paul is ministering the New Covenant and the Spirit are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in Galatians 4:24-31, where Paul says, “... these ... are two Covenants ... Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is ... But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman,” in which he analogizes the Old Covenant that is associated with the present Jerusalem as Hagar, the handmaid, and the New Covenant that is associated with the heavenly Jerusalem (compare Hebrews 12:22-24) as Sarah, the free-woman, that the referent of “we” is not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in Hebrews 3:1 and 9:15, where the author says, “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession ... Jesus ... he is the mediator of a New Covenant, that, a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance,” these “called” ones are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in Hebrews 10:14-23, where the author says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to (concerning) us; for after he hath said, ‘This is the Covenant that I will make with them ... I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them ... And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.’ Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us ... and ... a great priest over the house of God (whose house we are [3:6]), let us draw near ... let us hold fast the confession of our hope,” the “sanctified” ones, the ones who are the referent of “us,” are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel. So that’s what you think? I suppose that I shouldn’t be surprised.


holdon (response [continued]):

Are we the house of Israel and Judah?


Jim (this message):

The Jeremiah prophecy regarding the New Covenant says, “...this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ...,” referring to the house of Jacob, which includes both the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Peter cites Moses in Acts 3:22-23, saying, “...every soul that shall not hearken to that Prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.” Here, the “people” are the ones who now believe in Christ (the “Prophet”); they are Israel. In Romans 9:6, Paul says, “But ... not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel.” Here, “Israel” is the ones who now believe in Christ. In Romans 11:16-24, Paul says, “...some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the Root ... by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith ... Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity, but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness ... if they continue not in their unbelief, (they) shall be grafted in ... thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a (cultivated) olive tree ... these, which are the natural ... (shall) be grafted into their own olive tree ...,” the believing natural branches, from among which the unbelieving natural branches are “broken off” by their unbelief toward Christ, are the “people” from among whom the ones who do not listen to the “Prophet” (Christ) are “destroyed” in Acts 3:22-23; they are Israel. Here, in Romans 11:16-24, the Jewish unbelievers are removed by their unbelief toward Christ from the very same thing into which the Gentile believers are inserted by their belief in Christ, which is fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the “people” / Israel). Yes, the ones who now believe in Christ are Israel.


holdon (response [continued]):

Are "our fathers" the fathers who made the old covenant?” Are we living in the land of Israel? Have we been brought back to that country?


Jim (this message):

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (38:31-34 in the LXX) doesn’t say anything about land.


holdon (response [continued]):

Are we the seed of Israel?


Paul:

(ASV) Romans 4:16 For this cause ... of faith, that ... according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

(ASV) Romans 9:6 But ... not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel ... 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

(ASV) Galatians 3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.


Jim (this message):

Yes, the ones who now believe in Christ are the seed.


holdon (response [continued]):

Does God not say that He will NOT cast off the people of Israel for "all they have done?” Why don't you live in the country of Israel and be prosperous now?


Paul:

(ASV) Romans 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. ... 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Jim (this message):

God didn’t throw away the Jews. The ones who now believe in Christ are participating in God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel, as predicted by Jeremiah.


Jim

Jim1 said:

Jim (this message):

You obviously don’t care what the New Testament says about the New Covenant.


holdon (response [continued]):

You say: "apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ.” This is simply not true. I see no evidence of it.


Jim (this message):

I see. So according to you, in Luke 22:20, where Jesus says, “This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood ... that which is poured out for you,” the referent of “you” is not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel;

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No, the blood was poured out "for many", including the disciples and all believers or all ages. In the Lord's Supper we remember His death till He comes. His shed blood is the basis of all blessing. There will be no other. The New Covenant will be based on that blood. It is then no longer "if" like under the Old Covenant, but "I will": God does it all for Israel. Nowhere is it said that the New Covenant is made with the Church, or Christianity.

And it was available to and in 2 Corinthians 3:6, where Paul says, “who also made us sufficient as ministers of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life,” the ones to whom Paul is ministering the New Covenant and the Spirit are not the ones who now believe in Christ

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Yes, and as you can see from that passage clearly is that Paul is ministering the spiritual blessings of that New Covenant: the forgiveness of sins and changed hearts resulting in changed lives: like letters that could be read by all men. Not the Law written on our hearts but Christ: "Christ's epistle". Not the literally the New Covenant: that will be written on the hearts of the Israelites in a future day, with all the blessings in the land etc...

, but a future generation of Israel; and in Galatians 4:24-31, where Paul says, “... these ... are two Covenants ... Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is ... But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman,” in which he analogizes the Old Covenant that is associated with the present Jerusalem as Hagar, the handmaid, and the New Covenant that is associated with the heavenly Jerusalem (compare Hebrews 12:22-24) as Sarah, the free-woman, that the referent of “we” is not the ones who now believe in Christ,

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No again. We are of the free-woman, the covenant of promise, the heavenly Jerusalem. But I fail to see to how this replaces God's future acting with Israel under the New Covenant. ???

but a future generation of Israel; and in Hebrews 3:1 and 9:15, where the author says, “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession ... Jesus ... he is the mediator of a New Covenant, that, a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance,” these “called” ones are not the ones who now believe in Christ,

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No again. The efficacy of the blood of Christ (contrasted with the old covenant sacrifices for Israel) benefits both those (comp. Rom. 3:25) as well as all current and future believers.

but a future generation of Israel; and in Hebrews 10:14-23, where the author says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to (concerning) us; for after he hath said, ‘This is the Covenant that I will make with them ... I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them ... And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.’

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Which is by the way a clear reiteration of the Old Testament prophecy of the New Covenant, clearly indicating that it is NOT to be re-intepreted as the christians being Israel.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us ... and ... a great priest over the house of God (whose house we are [3:6]), let us draw near ... let us hold fast the confession of our hope,” the “sanctified” ones, the ones who are the referent of “us,” are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel. So that’s what you think? I suppose that I shouldn’t be surprised.

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Like I said: Christ's sacrifice, His shed blood, His whole work, is for the benefit of all believers: those from Adam to the last one of the millenium. This in no wise does make any of them into Israelites. All believers of all ages, before, under or after the old covenant are saved based on Christ.
But of all these believers, some belong to Israel, some to the Church, some to neither. The New Covenant will be established literally with Israelites in a future day. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, His blood is the blood of the New Covenant, the spiritual aspects of the New Covenant can be freely ministered to, etc.....
But all these things don't make of Gentile christian believers: Israelites.....

Nor has God cast away the Israelites forever. All Israel SHALL (=future) be saved.... That is not all Israelites who have ever lived: but the totality of a people that will be restored in their land with Christ as David on the throne in Zion.....

Hi holdon,


Jim (previous):

This is everything that the New Testament writers say about God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel that is predicted by Jeremiah ... All of the New Testament writers apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ, not to a future generation of Israel. Your interpretations of the Old Testament will never change this fact. Never.


holdon (response):

Well, you should perhaps look at what the Old Testament says about the New Covenant.


Jim (response):

You obviously don’t care what the New Testament says about the New Covenant.


holdon (response [continued]):

You say: "apply the New Covenant of the Jeremiah prophecy to us, the ones who now believe in Christ.” This is simply not true. I see no evidence of it.


Jim (response):

I see. So according to you, in Luke 22:20, where Jesus says, “This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood ... that which is poured out for you,” the referent of “you” is not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in 2 Corinthians 3:6, where Paul says, “who also made us sufficient as ministers of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life,” the ones to whom Paul is ministering the New Covenant and the Spirit are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in Galatians 4:24-31, where Paul says, “... these ... are two Covenants ... Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is ... But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman,” in which he analogizes the Old Covenant that is associated with the present Jerusalem as Hagar, the handmaid, and the New Covenant that is associated with the heavenly Jerusalem (compare Hebrews 12:22-24) as Sarah, the free-woman, that the referent of “we” is not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in Hebrews 3:1 and 9:15, where the author says, “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession ... Jesus ... he is the mediator of a New Covenant, that, a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance,” these “called” ones are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel; and in Hebrews 10:14-23, where the author says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to (concerning) us; for after he hath said, ‘This is the Covenant that I will make with them ... I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them ... And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.’ Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us ... and ... a great priest over the house of God (whose house we are [3:6]), let us draw near ... let us hold fast the confession of our hope,” the “sanctified” ones, the ones who are the referent of “us,” are not the ones who now believe in Christ, but a future generation of Israel. So that’s what you think? I suppose that I shouldn’t be surprised.


holdon (response):

No, the blood was poured out "for many", including the disciples and all believers or all ages. In the Lord's Supper we remember His death till He comes. His shed blood is the basis of all blessing. There will be no other. The New Covenant will be based on that blood. It is then no longer "if" like under the Old Covenant, but "I will": God does it all for Israel. Nowhere is it said that the New Covenant is made with the Church, or Christianity. ... Yes, and as you can see from that passage clearly is that Paul is ministering the spiritual blessings of that New Covenant: the forgiveness of sins and changed hearts resulting in changed lives: like letters that could be read by all men. Not the Law written on our hearts but Christ: "Christ's epistle". Not the literally the New Covenant: that will be written on the hearts of the Israelites in a future day, with all the blessings in the land etc. ... No again. We are of the free-woman, the covenant of promise, the heavenly Jerusalem. But I fail to see to how this replaces God's future acting with Israel under the New Covenant. ... No again. The efficacy of the blood of Christ (contrasted with the old covenant sacrifices for Israel) benefits both those (comp. Rom. 3:25) as well as all current and future believers. ... Which is by the way a clear reiteration of the Old Testament prophecy of the New Covenant, clearly indicating that it is NOT to be re-interpreted as the Christians being Israel. ... Like I said: Christ's sacrifice, His shed blood, His whole work, is for the benefit of all believers: those from Adam to the last one of the millennium. This in no wise does make any of them into Israelites. All believers of all ages, before, under or after the old covenant are saved based on Christ. But of all these believers, some belong to Israel, some to the Church, some to neither. The New Covenant will be established literally with Israelites in a future day. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, His blood is the blood of the New Covenant, the spiritual aspects of the New Covenant can be freely ministered to, etc. ... But all these things don't make of Gentile Christian believers: Israelites.


Jim (this message):

You haven’t said anything here, nothing, to counter the fact that ALL of the New Testament writers apply WHATEVER is said about the NEW COVENANT to US, to the ones who now believe in Christ, instead of to a future generation of Israel, a fact which you had claimed to be untrue and to be lacking evidence.

The free-woman (Sarah) in Galatians 4:21-31 is the New Covenant, the handmaid (Hagar) being the Old Covenant.

The two covenants being contrasted here in Galatians 4 are the Old and New Covenants, just as they are contrasted in 2 Corinthians 3 and in Hebrews 8, 9, 10 and 12. The New Covenant is OUR (the saints’) covenant, whereas the Old Covenant is THEIR (the Jews’ [non-saints]) covenant.

The heavenly Jerusalem is identified with the New Covenant:

(ASV) Galatians 4:22 ... Abraham had two sons ... 23 ... the [son] by the handmaid is born after the flesh, but the [son] by the freewoman ... through promise. 24 ... these ... are two covenants ... 25 ... Hagar is mount Sinai ... and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is ... 26 ... the Jerusalem that is above ... is our mother. ... 28 ... as Isaac was, (we) are children of promise. ... 30 ... the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 31 ... we are not children of a handmaid (the Old Covenant, whose city is earthly Jerusalem), but of the freewoman (the New Covenant, whose city is heavenly Jerusalem).

(ASV) Hebrews 12:18 ... ye are not come unto ... that might be touched ... 20 ... If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned ... 21 ... Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake ... 22 But ye are come unto ... the heavenly Jerusalem ... 24 and to Jesus the mediator of a New Covenant ...


holdon:

Nor has God cast away the Israelites forever.



Jim:

The Jews who have thus far been saved are the house of Israel with whom the New Covenant is made in fulfillment of the Jeremiah prophecy.


holdon:

All Israel SHALL (= future) be saved.


Paul:

(ASV) Romans 10:9 ... if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For, WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.

(ASV) Romans 11:25 ... hardening in part hath befallen Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles (enters). 26 And (in this manner) all Israel (both parts of Israel [both the part that has been saved and the part that will be saved]) SHALL BE SAVED.


Jim:

The “all Israel” (both parts of Israel) is everyone who will have ever believed in Christ (US). All of them (US) WILL BE SAVED through belief in Christ. WE are the New Covenant people, as ALL of the New Testament writers confirm. Whatever Jews are saved in the future must join with US as fellow citizens, because WE are the New Covenant people. WE are the part of Israel this has been saved thus far. The other part of Israel must likewise believe in Christ and become US (the New Covenant people) in order to be saved. Once this has occurred, once THEY have become US, then all Israel (both parts of Israel [WE]) shall have been saved through belief in Christ.


Jim

Jim1 said:

Jim:

The Jews who have thus far been saved are the house of Israel with whom the New Covenant is made in fulfillment of the Jeremiah prophecy.

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I don't see it at all. It is expressly said the New Covenant will be made with the houses of Israel and Judah and "their fathers" cannot apply to gentiles in any way.
And I don't see that the New Covenant is fully established with the Jews, because then ALL, from the smallest to the greatest would have God's law written on their hearts, which is clearly not the case as long as there is "blindness in part".


Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. 31:28 And it shall come to pass, as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to overthrow, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them to build, and to plant, saith Jehovah. 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge: 31:30 for every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man that eateth the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. 31:31 Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of my taking them by the hand, to lead them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and will write it in their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will pardon their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. 31:35 Thus saith Jehovah, who giveth the sun for light by day, the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for light by night, who stirreth up the sea so that the waves thereof roar, -- Jehovah of hosts is his name: 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 31:37 Thus saith Jehovah: If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off the whole seed of Israel, for all that they have done, saith Jehovah. 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that the city shall be built to Jehovah, from the tower of Hananeel unto the corner-gate. 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth before it unto the hill Gareb, and shall turn toward Goath. 31:40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the torrent Kidron, unto the corner of the horse-gate toward the east, shall be holy unto Jehovah: it shall not be plucked up, nor overthrown any more for ever.

Hi holdon,


holdon:

I don't see it at all. It is expressly said the New Covenant will be made with the houses of Israel and Judah and "their fathers" cannot apply to gentiles in any way.


Jim:

What you’re saying here is not what the New Testament writers say. They apply it to US. None of them expresses the idea that he’s waiting for some future generation of Israel. The author Hebrews is explicit in identifying the Jeremiah prophecy as being the thing that is applied to US here and now; he’s not waiting for a future generation of Israel.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites are Israel. But in Romans 9:6-8, most Israelites are NOT the Israel of God’s word, and in Romans 11:1-2, most Israelites are not the people of God, the people of God being the ones who believe in Christ in Paul’s own day. No one is waiting for a future generation of Israel. NO ONE!

And yet here you are claiming that the New Covenant applies to a future generation of Israel in direct contradiction to everything that all of the New Testament writers say about it.

For whatever reason, you can’t accept what the New Testament says. You run to the Old Testament in an attempt to prove that what is said in the New Testament doesn’t exist. Instead of allowing the New Testament to explain the Old Testament, you use the Old Testament to deny the New Testament. That’s what Jewish unbelievers do. You’re behaving like a Jewish unbeliever. Most believers prefer to behave like believers.


Jim

Jim1 said:

Hi holdon,


holdon:

I don't see it at all. It is expressly said the New Covenant will be made with the houses of Israel and Judah and "their fathers" cannot apply to gentiles in any way.


Jim:

What you’re saying here is not what the New Testament writers say. They apply it to US.

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No, I don't see that either.

None of them expresses the idea that he’s waiting for some future generation of Israel.

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Paul clearly refers to that in Romans 11:26 (compare the quote in Is. 59:20,21.

The author Hebrews is explicit in identifying the Jeremiah prophecy as being the thing that is applied to US here and now; he’s not waiting for a future generation of Israel.

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No, he is NOT applying it to us gentiles. He is warning the "Hebrews" (jewish believers) that the old system is replaced by a new order: better things, etc... He contrasts Christ's work with the works under the old covenant. Sticking to the old disposition would deprive them from the new blessings in Christ. Nor is there any hint whatsoever that even these jewish christians were to be brought back into the land and that all (from the smallest to the greatest) would know the Lord, so that even for them the literal fulfillment of the New Covenant had not taken place.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites are Israel. But in Romans 9:6-8, most Israelites are NOT the Israel of God’s word, and in Romans 11:1-2, most Israelites are not the people of God, the people of God being the ones who believe in Christ in Paul’s own day. No one is waiting for a future generation of Israel. NO ONE!

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Yes, Paul is. And it is utterly illogic and bad hermeutics to think that the Israel of Romans 11:25 is a different one from the one in the next verse: 11:26

Hi holdon,


holdon:

... it is utterly illogic and bad hermeneutics to think that the Israel of Romans 11:25 is a different one from the one in the next verse: 11:26


Jim:

And yet that is exactly what you’re doing. In the context of Romans 11:25, in which Israel consists of two parts, a part that already believes and a part that does not yet believe, the phrase “all Israel” in 11:26 has to refer to both parts of Israel in 11:25, that is, everyone who believes in Christ from the cross until the second advent. As Paul says, it is in this manner (in this stated sequence)—part of Israel does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have entered (into the believing part of Israel), after which the part of Israel that had not yet believed will likewise believe and will likewise enter into the believing part of Israel—that all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved. You’re the one who is changing the definition of Israel between verses 11:25 and 11:26.


Jim

Jim1 said:

Jim:

And yet that is exactly what you’re doing. In the context of Romans 11:25, in which Israel consists of two parts, a part that already believes and a part that does not yet believe, the phrase “all Israel” in 11:26 has to refer to both parts of Israel in 11:25, that is, everyone who believes in Christ from the cross until the second advent. As Paul says, it is in this manner (in this stated sequence)—part of Israel does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have entered (into the believing part of Israel), after which the part of Israel that had not yet believed will likewise believe and will likewise enter into the believing part of Israel—that all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved. You’re the one who is changing the definition of Israel between verses 11:25 and 11:26.

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I am not the one who, like as you demonstrate hereabove once again, interprets the Israel of vs 25 to be a different one from vs 26.

The "so shall all Israel be saved" is clearly AFTER the fulness of the gentiles shall have come in. And in these verse those gentiles are clearly distinguished to be different from Israel: they are NOT Israel at all. And the covenant is clearly to be made with Israel/Jacob. There is no word about gentiles being part of that.

For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in; 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved. According as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 11:27 And this is the covenant from me to them, when I shall have taken away their sins.

Hi holdon,


There doesn’t seem to be much point in talking to you. I say that ALL of the New Testament writers/speakers apply the NEW COVENANT of the Jeremiah prophecy to US, to the ones who now believe in Christ, and I prove it by citing ALL of the New Testament references to the New Covenant, which proves that the New Testament writers/speakers were NOT waiting for a future generation of Israel to fulfill the New Covenant prophecy, yet you say no for no reason other than that you want to say no.

Then I say, in response to YOUR assertion that I’m not treating the phrase “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 in the context of what is said about “Israel” in 11:25, that “Israel” in 11:25 consists of TWO parts, a believing part and a not-yet-believing part, and that “ALL Israel” in 11:26 MUST therefore, in order to keep “ALL Israel” in 11:26 in the context of “Israel” (BOTH parts of Israel) in 11:25, refer to BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25, BOTH the believing part and the not-yet-believing part, yet you say no for no reason other than that you want to say no.

Ultimately, you revert to your own preferred conclusions no matter what facts and what proof is shown to you.

It’s an objective fact that if “Israel” in Romans 11:25 is a reference to BOTH parts of Israel, which it is, and that if a person then interprets “ALL Israel” in 11:26 to be a reference, NOT to BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25, but to only ONE of those two parts of “Israel” in 11:25, then this person has CHANGED the definition of “Israel” from BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25 to only ONE of those two parts of “Israel” in 11:26. This is a fact. And yet you say no.

Therefore, since you won’t acknowledge the obvious facts and proofs that are shown to you, there doesn’t seem to be much point in talking to you, because talking to you amounts to:

“The sky is blue. NO, IT ISN’T! ... Two plus two equals four. NO, IT DOESN’T! ... ALL the New Testament writers/speakers apply the New Covenant to US, to the ones who now believe in Christ, NOT to a future generation of Israel. NO, THEY DON’T! ... The phrase “ALL Israel” in Romans 11:26, IF it is to be kept contextual with what is said about “Israel” in 11:25, HAS TO refer to BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25, NOT to just ONE of those two parts. NO, IT DOESN’T!”

There simply is no point in talking to you.


Jim

Jim1 said:

Hi holdon,


There doesn’t seem to be much point in talking to you. I say that ALL of the New Testament writers/speakers apply the NEW COVENANT of the Jeremiah prophecy to US, to the ones who now believe in Christ, and I prove it by citing ALL of the New Testament references to the New Covenant, which proves that the New Testament writers/speakers were NOT waiting for a future generation of Israel to fulfill the New Covenant prophecy, yet you say no for no reason other than that you want to say no.

Then I say, in response to YOUR assertion that I’m not treating the phrase “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 in the context of what is said about “Israel” in 11:25, that “Israel” in 11:25 consists of TWO parts, a believing part and a not-yet-believing part, and that “ALL Israel” in 11:26 MUST therefore, in order to keep “ALL Israel” in 11:26 in the context of “Israel” (BOTH parts of Israel) in 11:25, refer to BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25, BOTH the believing part and the not-yet-believing part, yet you say no for no reason other than that you want to say no.

Ultimately, you revert to your own preferred conclusions no matter what facts and what proof is shown to you.

It’s an objective fact that if “Israel” in Romans 11:25 is a reference to BOTH parts of Israel, which it is, and that if a person then interprets “ALL Israel” in 11:26 to be a reference, NOT to BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25, but to only ONE of those two parts of “Israel” in 11:25, then this person has CHANGED the definition of “Israel” from BOTH parts of “Israel” in 11:25 to only ONE of those two parts of “Israel” in 11:26. This is a fact. And yet you say no.

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Instead of loosing myself in your complicated reasonings, here is what I think: the Israel of 11:25 is exactly the same as the Israel in 11:26. And it does not include any gentiles. It is beyond me how anyone can interpret this passage any differently.

As regards the New Covenant citations in the New Testament: I agree that the spiritual aspects of that do apply to us. I have said so before. But in your view you want to force another meaning on those passages saying the gentile believers are therefore now part of Israel, which is completely unfounded. I have challenged you time and again that in no wise can the literal provisions of the New Covenant apply to gentile believers. Nor do these physical provisions apply now to any jewish believers.

You mix up different ideas such as the olive tree and Israel; the Church and Israel; all believers and the Church; etc, etc... where it is clear that these are different and distiguishable throughout Scripture. To put the all together is ignoring what Scripture teaches and not seeing God's dealings with mankind in different ways. People such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, never belonged to Israel, nor the Church, yet they were believers and saved. In a future day there will again be believers out of the great tribulation that will not belong to Israel nor the Church.
There is a common feature though: all believers from all ages are saved through Christ.

holdon said:

Instead of loosing myself in your complicated reasonings, here is what I think: the Israel of 11:25 is exactly the same as the Israel in 11:26. And it does not include any gentiles. It is beyond me how anyone can interpret this passage any differently.

As regards the New Covenant citations in the New Testament: I agree that the spiritual aspects of that do apply to us. I have said so before. But in your view you want to force another meaning on those passages saying the gentile believers are therefore now part of Israel, which is completely unfounded. I have challenged you time and again that in no wise can the literal provisions of the New Covenant apply to gentile believers. Nor do these physical provisions apply now to any jewish believers.

You mix up different ideas such as the olive tree and Israel; the Church and Israel; all believers and the Church; etc, etc... where it is clear that these are different and distiguishable throughout Scripture. To put the all together is ignoring what Scripture teaches and not seeing God's dealings with mankind in different ways. People such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, never belonged to Israel, nor the Church, yet they were believers and saved. In a future day there will again be believers out of the great tribulation that will not belong to Israel nor the Church.
There is a common feature though: all believers from all ages are saved through Christ.

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As I said, no point. I'm done.

Notrash said:

Been thinking about JdS's emphasis on pronoun usage in Eph and to try to see if there is any basis for focusing on their use.

In Eph 1:1 we read,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to thesaints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

I guess I'm wondering if some dispy's would see this as a the saints being jewish converts and the faithful in Jesus Christ as being 'gentile' converts. ? Or is Paul using the word "and to" to modify and describe the "saints at Ephesus"??? Wondering about what Dispy's have been taught?

Not rash

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The saints referred to here are the holy ones, the holy ones are those with holy spirit, the first century Christians were made up of both jew and gentile and Ephesians was written to the Faithful out of both groups who were now one in Christ, the faithful meaning faithful to live the doctrine they were taught by Paul who was a follower of Jesus Christ. Ephesians lays out someof the basics truths about that doctrine in Ephe 4:4 One-body...the body of Christ... One spirit...holy spirit which they were given and they were all made to drink from...One Hope...the hope of Christs return and the gathering together and the ressurections...One Lord ...meaning Jesus Christ, there master who was given all things all power nd authority to guide the body, One baptism...baptized in holy spirit not water...One Father...Talking about God not Jesus Christ, being the Father of us all...

These truths are all part of what they were to be faithful to in there believing and practice, theyre are more but these are pivitol, and at this point in time most Christians disagree on all these points........