The Mark of the Beast

k2svpete · Jan 28, 2008

IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
I have not seen any substantiations of these outlandish claims. The dog ate my homework isn't an acceptable excuse.

Well, look what I found.....

Pope as the beast -

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

Infant baptism is not scriptural, we are commanded by Christ to 'repent and be baptised'. One needs to have gained some degree of responsibility for one's own actions to make this decision, it cannot be made for you as it is a personal decision.

There is a reason why the Jewish folk have bar and bat-mitzvahs. This signifies the coming of age. Full water baptism following repentance by the individual is scriptural.

UBERROGO · Jan 28, 2008

Seems more likely that Revelation is describe a symbolical liturgy.

BeforeTheFoundation · Jan 28, 2008

k2svpete said:
There is a reason why the Jewish folk have bar and bat-mitzvahs. This signifies the coming of age. Full water baptism following repentance by the individual is scriptural.

Baptism is nothing like Bar/Bat-Mitzvahs, it is more akin to circumcision in which the person is marked as being a part of the covenant community.

Jipsah · Jan 28, 2008

k2svpete said:
Except that the beast referred to in the prophecy does not represent Nero. This assertion is inconsistent with any prophetic language.

Which means that it doesn't agree with your doctrine. Imagine that!

The beast mentioned in this prophecy is symbolic of the Catholic church.

Codswallop.

In the dark ages people required to have the mark of the church on their forehead or right hand in order to trade.

Nope, never happened.

The 666 amounts to the title of the pope in latin, I cannot remember what it is though, my apologies.

No problem there, the "title" referred to was made up specifically to add up to 666, and is a title that the pope has never used.

Thekla · Jan 28, 2008

the danger of assuming one knows who the antichrist is,

is that if one is wrong, one will fail to recognize the real antichrist

Jipsah · Jan 28, 2008

BeforeTheFoundation said:
I agree, the Mark was a physical mark. And yes it was quite impossible for anyone to buy or sell without it. This is because the mark was on Roman coinage.

I don't think it was the coinage, that's too trivial. Just using a coin with Nero's face on it didn't make you a slave of Nero. There was, though, the legal (if not practical) necessity of making sacrifice to the emperor as a god, and receiving the chit that showed that you'd done so in the approved manner. If you didn't have it, you couldn't legally buy or sell.

MrSnow · Jan 28, 2008

UBERROGO said:
Seems more likely that Revelation is describe a symbolical liturgy.

I think that that aspect of Revelation is highly ignored in evangelical protestant circles and has a great deal of relevance.

Optimax · Jan 28, 2008

secretx said:
Does anyone believe that this will happen? I'm not sure myself, I've never really heard anyone speak about it, aside from reading about it on the internet. However it is discussed in the Bible, in the book of Revalations.

Thoughts?

Yes, it will happen.

Probably in the form of a barcode or insert under the skin which would effectively keep a person without to to trade, buy or sell in the market place.

k2svpete · Jan 29, 2008

BeforeTheFoundation said:
Baptism is nothing like Bar/Bat-Mitzvahs, it is more akin to circumcision in which the person is marked as being a part of the covenant community.

And we are told to be circumcised of the heart as part of the new covenant, aren't we?

k2svpete · Jan 29, 2008

Jipsah said:
Which means that it doesn't agree with your doctrine. Imagine that![/quote/]

Prophetic language has a key to it in order to gain some understanding of the symbolism. Ignore it at your peril.

Jipsah said:

No problem there, the "title" referred to was made up specifically to add up to 666, and is a title that the pope has never used.[/quote/]

So the pope was never referred to as the bishop of Rome? Really, I think you need to do better.

Click to expand...

johnd · Jan 29, 2008

by not only making humanity accountable to him, but it also tracks down the one people on earth who refuse to receive it... Christians.

Bear in mind that though the book of Revelation is by even it's own name a book of revealing / unveiling... there are certain elements about it that were not meant to be understood until the time of their occurrence. For example, the way that the entire world could view the dead bodies of the two prophets in Revelation 11 confounded people until satellite relayed television broadcasting was invented.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 speaks of the revealing of the man of lawlessness being delayed up to a certain point in history which ties in with the identity marker 666 in Revelation 13:18.

Keep in mind also that this would come at a time when the trial and testing of the entire world would take place. These things do not set well with the Preterist interpretations that relegate these events and 666 to the first century AD and localize it to Israel alone.

So applying gamatria to Nero Cesar is a bit of a stretch especially when you consider that Hebrew is a letter-number language. Many names could fit that mold.

The more accurate way to reveal a thing in scripture is to do a concordance study and compare all the places in the Bible where a prophetic subject or object is mentioned. This is how the Messiah himself was prophesied and validated. It's how the beast will be too.

Try it with 666 and dig for clues.

zeke37 · Jan 29, 2008

zeke37 said:
if here is only one world currency, that would explain it...

and if all but the elect, join this world system, so they can eat and buy stuff, then all but the elect shall be marked of the beast.

the elect know that God provides and that 100% protection is guaranteed to them in that end time tribulation...that is how they are able to live with out taking the mark...under the protection and care of God, just like the Israelites who left Egypt....just like the three Hebrew young men who were thrown in the fiery furnace....pure protection guaranteed....

And I agree the Ez goes into the marking...with the man dressed in fine linen with an inkhorn....taking fire fro the thrown of God and marking the elect.

in His service
c

BeforeTheFoundation said:
Wow, I step out for a day and this thread took off.

First off, and this is a side note:

I just wanted to point out that this is a major problem in the thought process of the so-called 'free world' The idea that God provides for the physical needs of all of his people is really quite ridiculous and is not the intent of the Bible.

Jesus actually promises the exact opposite, that his people will be persecuted. Incidentally this prediction came true in the Roman Empire where his people's needs were not met and is still coming true in places like... say China where Christians are put in boxes and only being given food once in a while or being beheaded in Pakistan or subject to genocide in Sudan. Anyway, God does not always provide for his people and I don't think that the so-called Tribulation is the time that he would start.

Hello....

in response I would say that the elect are not every Christian...just a certain number of them, and as scripture teaches in many places, that they were chosen by God before the foundations of the world...so God can use them to help others in what ever way He sees fit....because they are already favorably judged. He can interfere with their lives, as He did with Saul/Paul, or Jonah, or many others in the Word of God.

a little different than every one else, who have complete free will, and must ask God for assistance when needed. They are here to overcome....but the elect already have overcome and are here as helpers of His plan, even if they themselves do not completely know it.

These elect are 100% protected in the end time hour of Jacob's trouble....they are the two candlesticks of Rev2-3...one of the two witnesses of Rev11...that must witness against the beast. They have a job to do, and are Sealed with God' mark and nothing can touch them, not a hair on their head...they are the ones that are going to be Gathered to Christ as He arrives at the 7th trump.....those that will bypass death and go strait to Him as 1Cor15 teaches.

Although I certainly agree that many have been killed for their faith in Him....they are the dead in Christ, which return with Him as the cloud of witnesses....His heavenly army....and if it is to be that we are kill for Him, so be it...but in that time, the elect are 100% protected and Satan(Apollyon/Abaddon) and his locust army(fallen angels) can only fool people, not kill them....as Rev9 teaches.

so no one is specifically going to be killed in that time...except for the other end time witness, called the 2 olive trees-the two individuals who die 3 1/2 days before the 7th trump.

many people are right now, and more will become, kinda spiritually dead inside....

and Satan has led many to what will ultimately be their second death, that of the soul in the lake of Fire at Judgement...by his evil spirit....

but Satan's physical angelic form will be cast from heaven to earth(Rev12)...not just his spirit, but his body...and many shall think he is Christ(Rev13)....many Christians shall worship him in ignorance

the elect know that Satan comes first to deceive the world by his flood of lies(Amos8) pretending to be Jesus Christ returned....that's the very first seal(Rev6)...and part of the mark of the beast...the other part of the mark is to become part of his system (NWO-Babylon), a world system that has it's own currency....

does not have to be a chip, just currency...one world currency.

so
worship him as Messiah returned,
or
go about your life in his system,

is to have his mark....

only the very elect will not have the mark and will witness against Satan in the very end of that trib...at that witness, the Holy Spirit of God actually speaks through all of the elect, as Joel prophesies about and what Acts2 is a type for...

God speaking.....witnessed world wide.....then some that hear His words will come out of their confusion....and accept the truth and be considered spiritual virgins, but most will not and will remain spiritual harlots.....and have to be refined in the Millennium

then Christ will Arrive/Appear/Come and defeat the antiChrist and ..... well you know.

and this was supposed to be a short response...

in His service
c

johnd · Jan 29, 2008

The only verses in the Bible that have 666 in them are:

1 Kings 10:14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,

2 Chronicles 9:13 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,

Ezra 2:13 of Adonikam 666

Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is mans number. His number is 666.

Solomon and Adonikam are mentioned by name. But the clan of Adonikam in the very next census has an addition:

Nehemiah 7:18 of Adonikam 667

Thus taking away from it any clandestine lineage through that vein. But we can gain from it a prophetic hint since the name adonai qum means "risen lord."

Revelation 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

And even though that leaves Solomon who is mentioned twice in the four verses containing 666, his line is not necessarily the one in question... however it would make an interesting thesis / counter thesis in that the lineage of Solomon is found in the Bible up to the birth of Joseph (Matthew 1) the stepfather of Jesus as opposed to the lineage of Solomon's brother Nathan through that of Jesus mother and in fact Jesus himself (Luke 3).

Setting that aside for now...

Solomon is an interesting character filled with many prophetic clues about the false messiah. And by the way, our translational concept of "anti-christ" clouds the very Jewish notion that this will be a false Jewish messiah. How else would the Jewish people follow him?

John 5:43 I have come in my Fathers name, and you do not accept me; but if {Gk: if / when} someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

Jesus also gave another clue that the beast will be a false messiah in his statement:

Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Bear in mind that keeping Sabbath in all Jewish history has never taken preference over fight or flight. So what's he warning about? Unless the Jews are in power over Judea and enforcing Sabbath laws... which means they see no problem in the beast approaching the temple that will stand in that day... which means he has to be Jewish... claiming to be the messiah they have sought all these centuries.

Solomon was a messiah. He was also builder of the first temple. The Jews to this day look for one who will build their temple who they believe will be the long awaited messiah. Even th name Solomon (Shlomo = Peace) figures in prophetically:

Jeremiah 6:14 (and 8:11) They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

MrSnow · Jan 29, 2008

I read in a post from this thread the term "prophetic language". There is no such thing. There is, however, apocalyptic language. The two are not one and the same thing. Nevertheless, some have prophesied apocalyptically.

zeke37 · Jan 29, 2008

the mark of the beast and Satan's number are not the same thing at all...

k2svpete · Jan 30, 2008

MrSnow said:
I read in a post from this thread the term "prophetic language". There is no such thing. There is, however, apocalyptic language. The two are not one and the same thing. Nevertheless, some have prophesied apocalyptically.

Oh absolute rubbish.

Prophecy is not literal. ie. you don't go looking for statues made of mixed materials or beasts with multiple heads etc.

Everything is symbology, therefore there must be a key to that symbology. The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are the same, just written many years apart and with different descriptions but the guidlines for prophetic language (symbolism) hold true.

MrSnow · Jan 30, 2008

Daniel and Revelation are both prophetic, and both are apocalyptic. Malachi, on the other hand, is prophetic, but not apocalyptic. Isaiah wasn't apocalyptic. If you read Jeremiah and Revelation, you won't find the same kind of stuff, but both are prophetic. And not just in that they tell the future. Prophecy isn't about telling the future (although it can include that). Prophecy is merely God speaking through someone, and that person speaks to people the word that God gave him/her. Jeremiah said many a "thus says the LORD". Most of that was for Judah to repent, submit to the king of Babylon, for he is coming soon to take them into captivity. There were things that were about the even more distant future (in particular about Christ and the new covenant).

I agree that apocalyptic works have much symbolism. But that is not true of prophecy across the board.

johnd · Jan 30, 2008

Did any of you consider looking up in your Bibles all the places 666 appears?

zeke37 · Jan 30, 2008

personally, I have....

I find fault with your line of reasoning that he will be human, or from Judah....but I like the obvious connections to Solomon and Adonikam

he is going to be Satan himself, cast physically from heaven.....pretending to be the Messiah returned. That is one reason that pre trib rapture belief is so dangerous. A supernatural fallen angel who looks like a man as all angels do, and is referred to as a man is some instances, and his types are that of men....but he himself is not a man of flesh, but an angelic man.
in His service
c

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 30, 2008

johnd said:
Did any of you consider looking up in your Bibles all the places 666 appears?

Hi. I would think this beast from the Land represents one "circumcised in Flesh" and not in "Spirit". The beast from the Sea appears to maybe be the Destroyer and the Beast from the Land a Religious System gone corrupt.
However, as shown in Reve 13:18, we are to have a "mind", and I would guess that would be the Mind of Christ. Still working on this though and I would ask the Orthodox Jews for their view but alas, they do not read it LOL.

Reve 13:18 Here the wisdom is, the one having mind/noun <3563>, let him calculate! the number of the wild beast number. For a-man it is, and the number of it six hundred sixty six.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath come to know the mind/noun <3563> of the Lord, that shall instruct him? But, we, have, the mind/noun <3563> of Christ.

Notice the use of all "flesh" in Genesis 6:

Genesis 6:13 And Elohiym is saying to Noah an-end of All Flesh come before Me, that the land, she is full of wrong/violence/02555 chamac from presences of them and behold Me! ruining/07843 shachath them with the land.

Luke 3:6 And shall-be-seeing All Flesh the Salvation of the God/YHWH.'

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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