We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Giver · Jan 19, 2008

Zecryphon said:
I'm not the one who is wrong here, you are. I've given you what is written in the scriptures and you either dodge what is presented or come back with things that aren't relevant. Face it, you don't have scriptural support for your position. You do not have scriptures where Jesus admonishes anyone for using a weapon against an advancing threat, you do not have scriptures where Jesus tells anyone who has a weapon to get rid of it. What do you have? Jesus telling people to arm themselves and keep their weapon at their sides. You lose.

Jesus didnt need to say any of the words you say he needed to say. At least the Holy Spirit didnt deem it necessary that they were placed in to the Word of God.

He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. I would think anyone interested in harming you or someone you know, and maybe someone you dont know, would be considered wicked.

(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

(Matthew 26:52) Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. I believe he was telling us that those who depend on violence to defend themselves and others would die that way.

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

You were worried about someone coming into your home. Jesus said, if a thief wants something give it to them and even give them more.

Jesus told us to love, bless, and pray for those who hate, curse, treat us badly, and hit us.

ToxicReboMan · Jan 20, 2008

ToxicReboMan said:
Let's look at that verse in a more literal translation.

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." Matt 26:52 NASB

It sounds to me that Jesus is saying that those who take up the sword as a means to fight for a cause (whether the cause be noble or wicked) will die by the sword. If Jesus does not condone self-defense then why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy a sword?

Zecryphon · Jan 20, 2008

Giver said:
Jesus didnt need to say any of the words you say he needed to say. At least the Holy Spirit didnt deem it necessary that they were placed in to the Word of God.

He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. I would think anyone interested in harming you or someone you know, and maybe someone you dont know, would be considered wicked.

(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

(Matthew 26:52) Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. I believe he was telling us that those who depend on violence to defend themselves and others would die that way.

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

You were worried about someone coming into your home. Jesus said, if a thief wants something give it to them and even give them more.

Jesus told us to love, bless, and pray for those who hate, curse, treat us badly, and hit us.

You're right Jesus would only say those words I say He needed to say if He had a problem with people using weapons to defend themselves against an advancing threat. He said nothing on the topic. Jesus is NOT the pacifist you want everyone to believe He is. Because a pacifist will not do the things Jesus will do when He comes back to earth at the Second Coming. Your pacifist Jesus is not supported by the scriptures. So keep repeating your mantra of three or four verses and let the rest of us consult the whole word of God on who Jesus is and we'll all be happy.

Giver · Jan 20, 2008

ToxicReboMan said:
It sounds to me that Jesus is saying that those who take up the sword as a means to fight for a cause (whether the cause be noble or wicked) will die by the sword. If Jesus does not condone self-defense then why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy a sword?

Jesus didnt tell his disciples to go buy swords. He was telling them that they were, from then on, going to have to struggle in the world in order to spread his Word. When they took him literally, as you have done, he said enough and stopped the conversation.

If would you have read my post on this thread you would have seen that your question had been answered many times.

Giver · Jan 20, 2008

Zecryphon said:
You're right Jesus would only say those words I say He needed to say if He had a problem with people using weapons to defend themselves against an advancing threat. He said nothing on the topic. Jesus is NOT the pacifist you want everyone to believe He is. Because a pacifist will not do the things Jesus will do when He comes back to earth at the Second Coming. Your pacifist Jesus is not supported by the scriptures. So keep repeating your mantra of three or four verses and let the rest of us consult the whole word of God on who Jesus is and we'll all be happy.

Some how I havent explained myself. Have I ever said that Jesus was a pacifist? I believe what you must have read from me was that Jesus is God. God is the Lawgiver and enforcer. Jesus told us what we should be, and what we are to do doesnt apply to him. Also in the last days God is going to use angles to enforce his laws not people.

UBERROGO · Jan 20, 2008

Giver said:
The danger of disobeying God is the loss of ones soul. You should see that a Christian isnt part of the world, and should never be in the worlds army or police force.

So what was with the Israelites killing people? Was that wrong also? Why did God command some people to be put to death? Did God change?

Catholic Christian · Jan 20, 2008

Giver said:
Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

The written Word of God tells us the same thing.

(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

Thats a pretty good post. I'm sure I could learn something from that. My combo Irish/Italian blood has a low boiling point.

Thank you for that.

LLWHA · Jan 20, 2008

UBERROGO said:
So what was with the Israelites killing people? Was that wrong also? Why did God command some people to be put to death? Did God change?

God did (does) not change.

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of The Law [are] just before God, but the DOERS of The Law (The Torah) shall be justified.

Giver · Jan 20, 2008

UBERROGO said:
So what was with the Israelites killing people? Was that wrong also? Why did God command some people to be put to death? Did God change?

(Matthew 5:17) Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

Jesus didnt change but he did complete. He told us that it was eye for eye, but no longer. He now wants his people to truly trust in him.

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 20, 2008

Giver said:
Giving ones life is a lot different than taking someone elses life.

So a good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. How do I do that? After being struck down (since I'm not defending anyone or anything), hope that an intruder trips over my body and that the people I protect have time to run away?

You know how Jesus says when you do something for someone you are doing it for Him, defending them is a form of help.

LLWHA · Jan 20, 2008

Giver said:
Jesus didnt tell his disciples to go buy swords. He was telling them that they were, from then on, going to have to struggle in the world in order to spread his Word. When they took him literally, as you have done, he said enough and stopped the conversation.

If would you have read my post on this thread you would have seen that your question had been answered many times.

Trouble is your answer is not the Truth.

Luke 22:36 KJV
Then He said to them, But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Jesus in Matthew10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a "Sword".
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes [SHALL BE] they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter (or anyone or anything) more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

KJV Rev21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

rocklife · Jan 21, 2008

Giver said:
Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

The written Word of God tells us the same thing.

(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

I learned from the Christian Pastors we can give spankings to children as needed, not abuse, but discipline when they are being bad. That could be considered hurting someone. And before I became a Christian, I believed spanking was abusive, but now that I am a Christian, I have learned some different principles about sin and discipline, we need God's wisdom about that. But I do not believe in killing others, Christians should be more missionary minded in reaching out, jails are one thing which I support, but killing is another which I believe Jesus is going to assign later, at this time we should seek and save the lost. we are all sinners.

Jet_A_Jockey · Jan 21, 2008

Giver said:
Jesus didnt need to say any of the words you say he needed to say. At least the Holy Spirit didnt deem it necessary that they were placed in to the Word of God.

He said:(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. I would think anyone interested in harming you or someone you know, and maybe someone you dont know, would be considered wicked.

Try again, this passage is about retribution/vengeance. And more specifically because they were using the passage as a means to avenge crimes outside of the judicial system.

(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

(Matthew 26:52) Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. I believe he was telling us that those who depend on violence to defend themselves and others would die that way.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Live by violence, die by violence. That says absolutely nothing about defending yourself. (you can defend yourself with your bare hands too)

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

Click to expand...

You were worried about someone coming into your home. Jesus said, if a thief wants something give it to them and even give them more.

That applies to someone who steals from you, not someone who intends to kill you or others. The focus is more on that the things of this world are temporal, so we should not concern ourselves with them. Instead we should be more concerned about the treasures we build in heaven. (i.e. good deeds)

Jesus told us to love, bless, and pray for those who hate, curse, treat us badly, and hit us.

Click to expand...

Once again, nothing about defending people from harm. On another note, there are those who have to keep order in society. Could you imagine if there was no law enforcement? If you think it'd be some sort of utopian lets-hold-each-others-hands type world, you are thinking wrong.

Giver · Jan 21, 2008

LLWHA said:
Trouble is your answer is not the Truth.
You say it isnt the truth. Why do you think Jesus said enough when a disciple said they had two swords?

I will give you what some Bible scholars happened in that verse.

Jerusalem Bible: J. The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.

K. The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.

Luke 22:36 KJV
Then He said to them, But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Jesus in Matthew10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a "Sword".
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes [SHALL BE] they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter (or anyone or anything) more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

KJV Rev21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

You are trying to say Jesus didnt mean what he said here?

Zecryphon · Jan 21, 2008

Giver said:
Some how I haven’t explained myself. Have I ever said that Jesus was a pacifist? I believe what you must have read from me was that Jesus is God. God is the Lawgiver and enforcer. Jesus told us what we should be, and what we are to do doesn’t apply to him. Also in the last days God is going to use angles to enforce his laws not people.

"Some how I haven’t explained myself. Have I ever said that Jesus was a pacifist?"

Not outright, but the Jesus you describe, the one who never told His disciples to buy a sword, the one who said we are not to defend ourselves or our homes or our loved ones from an advancing threat, that Jesus is a pacifist and that Jesus exists only in your mind. The Jesus found in the scriptures, did tell His disciples to buy a sword and He Himself, beat people out of the temple with a whip. So He apparently is not against violence as you'd like everyone to believe. He also said that He did not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword and cause division.

"I believe what you must have read from me was that Jesus is God. God is the Lawgiver and enforcer. Jesus told us what we should be, and what we are to do doesn’t apply to him."

That doesn't even make sense. If Jesus told us what to be, then what we are is beacuse of Him, it definitely applies to Him, as it came from Him.

"Also in the last days God is going to use angles to enforce his laws not people."

The word you're looking for is angels, not angles.

Zecryphon · Jan 21, 2008

Giver said:
(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

You are trying to say Jesus didnt mean what he said here?

Dude, he just exposed you as a liar, and you're too blind to see it, because you're too busy posting your mantra verses again.

chestertonrules · Jan 21, 2008

Giver said:
Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

The written Word of God tells us the same thing.

(Matthew 5:44) But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

Would you stop a man from killing an innocent child by killing him, or would you let him kill the child?

Zecryphon · Jan 21, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Would you stop a man from killing an innocent child by killing him, or would you let him kill the child?

Haven't you been reading the thread? Giver, doesn't believe that will ever happen, because God will never put a Christian in that situation. From what I've read I think Giver will "offer the wicked man no resistance." Sucks to be that child.

Tendril · Jan 21, 2008

Giver said:
(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

(Matthew 26:52) Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

(Luke 6:27-29) But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.

Hnmm, I think that we are missing a few things here. Sometimes doing good to someone can involve hurting them. For example, if a child is sitting on the tracks about to be run down by a train, I might have to body slam them off the tracks to save their life. This will hurt, but would certainly be the right thing to do, right?

Jesus said, " to the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too" . He does not say, "to the man who slaps your first child, present to him your second child too".

Basically, while I think it can be argued from these passages that Christians have a responsibility to be non-violent in regards to their own person, I think the tables are changed when others are involved.
If someone breaks into your house to rape your wife, sitting by while the terrible deed is done is akin to giving the intruder permission to rape your wife.

It is neither loving to your wife or to the intruder. The intruder is attempting to commit sin, and if you can physically restrain or incapacitate him by a fast knee to the crotch, you are probably doing him a favor. Then, call the police so he can be carted away. He will likely be treated by mental workers who will help him try to sort out his live, and your dear wife will escape being traumatized for the rest of her life. After the incident, it would very Christian of you to pray for the intruder.

The illustrations are meant to show that violence, whether it be body slamming a child off of train tracks, or kneeing an intruder bent on raping your wife can sometimes be done out of love. Violence is not inherently evil, nor is it blanketly condemned in the Bible.

Do you agree?
Tendril

chestertonrules · Jan 21, 2008

Tendril said:
Hnmm, I think that we are missing a few things here. Sometimes doing good to someone can involve hurting them. For example, if a child is sitting on the tracks about to be run down by a train, I might have to body slam them off the tracks to save their life. This will hurt, but would certainly be the right thing to do, right?

Jesus said, " to the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too" . He does not say, "to the man who slaps your first child, present to him your second child too".

Basically, while I think it can be argued from these passages that Christians have a responsibility to be non-violent in regards to their own person, I think the tables are changed when others are involved.
If someone breaks into your house to rape your wife, sitting by while the terrible deed is done is akin to giving the intruder permission to rape your wife.

It is neither loving to your wife or to the intruder. The intruder is attempting to commit sin, and if you can physically restrain or incapacitate him by a fast knee to the crotch, you are probably doing him a favor. Then, call the police so he can be carted away. He will likely be treated by mental workers who will help him try to sort out his live, and your dear wife will escape being traumatized for the rest of her life. After the incident, it would very Christian of you to pray for the intruder.

The illustrations are meant to show that violence, whether it be body slamming a child off of train tracks, or kneeing an intruder bent on raping your wife can sometimes be done out of love. Violence is not inherently evil, nor is it blanketly condemned in the Bible.

Do you agree?
Tendril

In the hypothetical I layed out above, would you let a man kill an innocent child or would you kill him if those were your only two choices.

Remember, this is a hypothetical.

What would you do?

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

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