The 2300 Days Are Wrong

RC_NewProtestants said:

So the little horn is still trampling the temple in heaven even after the end of your 2300 years and interestingly enough was also trampling the temple by saying that man had to confess to a man not through Christ from the beginning of your 2300 years which is 400 years before Christ's incarnation.

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No that is not my contention. In the beginning of this time period the trampling of the temple was going on thru the paganistic forces of Babylon. I think the little horn and satan are synomymous in action as one gives the other power according to Revelations. So the work of defiling the temple was going on before the little hor actually existed. The trampling didn't start in 457 and it didn't have to end in 1844. Just like sinning didn't stop after the earthly DOA was done , so it is with the heavenly one. If the IJ is an investigation of some kind and that investigation is cleansing the heavenly sanctuary then it makes sense. The time element, I think, was given for us to have a reference to go by to know when the time of the end was here prophetically.
Some think the IJ started then, some think otherwise. I'm not sure , but I am convinced the 2300 days ends in 1844.

So ultimately nothing in your view works with history or reality. The 2300 years does not end anything (as you say the trampling continues), the beginning is a trampling of something that know one had any knowledge of for over 400 years and it is attributed to a Papal organization about 600 years before that organization began.

Yet you don't think AE works well enough. Interesting indeed.

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Nothing historically works with 2300 literal days from 457 B.C. . Nothing works with 2300 literal days from Daniel's time. It doesn't even work from the time the temple was restored in a literal sense. The day for a year principle is solid and thousands of Bible scholars came to the 1843/44 time period for this back then that were totally unrelated studies determined separately and individually.
We as a church need to research this more and we need to lay all of our cards on the table for all to see no matter what the results are. If our case for the IJ is weak Biblically we need to be forth coming and admit it as a church. Official silence on this account leads to dissention.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

icedragon101 said:

Jim

Either you don't understand the argument or you are purposefully avoiding the problem.

the vision is

Ram (Perisia) sda theology start 2300 day here 457
Goat(Greece)
Big horn (alexander the great)
4 horns (divided greek empire)
Little horn -trampling of temple (bible says to start 2300 days here) daniel 8:9-12
cleasnsing of the temple (end 2300 days here) Daniel 8:14

One of the problems the SDA theroy encounters is the fact that there was no temple to be trampled at the beginning of the 2300 days. and not for 50 years later. There has to be a temple to trample and the temple was ruined at the time of SDA view of the 2300 days. Also during the 2300 days the temple is trampled the WHOLE entire time, that is not so with the SDA view of the 2300 days

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I do indeed understand completely the arguement that is being presented. I am just willing to allow a more expanded interpretation of the players and the parameters in this vision than you and others seem to be. When you say there was no temple to be trampled in 457 you are correct in a literal sense, but in a spiritual sense we know that the temple was still very much intact and on the minds of the faithful. It existed in their minds or those like Daniel wouldn't have knelt down and prayed three times a day facing the direction of Jerusalem and the temple.

The "trampling of the temple" in my mind could involve much more than a literal/physical desecration of the building itself and it's ceremonies. In addition it could entail a time line that was prior to the rise of the literal nation of Rome and go beyond it's world wide rule.

The whole situation of Israel going into captivity ( symbolic of falling under the influence of sin ) to Babylon is trampling on the temple of God nation wise. Since we know from God's word that individually we are a temple for the Holy Spirit then "trampling on the temple" could involve forced servitude on the people of God where they couldn't worship Yahweh as they had previously.

The little horn is contextually the one that is doing the trampling in Daniel 8 but to say he is the only one is forcing a limited perspective on the entire context sense the ram and goat are also contextual to this verse. There is nothing in Daniel 8 that makes the little horn the exclusive trampler in verse 14. The continued context of this verse shows us a scene of Gabriel trying to explain the evenings and morning ( 2300 days ) but Daniel fainted before he could do that. Then in chapter 9 Daniel offering a prayer for himself and his people with Gabriel showing up at the end of the prayer to "give him understanding". IOW, to continue to show him the understanding of the last vision. The only thing is Gabriel also gives him the messianic prophecy with it and a start time for the whole thing.

That is the way I see it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

The trampling didn't start in 457 and it didn't have to end in 1844. Just like sinning didn't stop after the earthly DOA was done , so it is with the heavenly one. ..

Some think the IJ started then, some think otherwise. I'm not sure , but I am convinced the 2300 days ends in 1844.



Nothing historically works with 2300 literal days from 457 B.C. .

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That first quote is so funny. the 2300 years didn't start in 457 and didn't end in 1844 it is just a time element for reference to know the end is here prophetically. Right? that makes sense...in some alternate universe perhaps. So anyway you hold the 2300 years as solid though it did not begin when we say and it does not end when we say. it just tells us we are in the prophetic end even though we have been in the prophetic end since the New Testament times.

Actually AE does work pretty well with the 2300 evening and mornings which is not days but the number of sacrifices so the days work out to 1150 days which is pretty close to the amount of time that AE desecrated the temple.

ii. However, if we take it to mean 1,150 days it can refer to the time the temple was actually desecrated. Philip Newell makes this case: "For a duration of time during which 2300 daily sacrifices would ordinarily have been offered, one at evening and one in the morning, as specified in Exodus 29:38-43. Since there are two of these daily, the actual time period involved is 1150 days, or slightly over three years. This, in fact, was the time of the Maccabean tribulation, 168-165 b.c., at the end of which the sanctuary was 'cleansed' by Judas Maccabeus in his restoration of the evening and morning sacrifices (2 Maccabees 10:1-5)."
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/2708.htm

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By the way there is nothing in the day of atonement ceremony about stopping sinning, so there is no reason to apply it the way you do.

Why is it that within the Bible, we are told quote ‘2300 ereb boqer’ unquote, yet some change that time to mean ‘2300 years?’
After all the words are 6153 ereb/evening and 1242 boqer/morning which means a day doesn’t it?
When used in Geneses chapter 1: to Geneses 2: 1. the same two words are used for each day.
Geneses 1: 5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the 6153evening and the 1242morning were the first day.

So why don’t the same folk say it took ‘7 years for the creation span?’
Could it be that we have forgotten first primary usage ruling of the words ereb boqer?

Another question.

Ezekiel 4: 5. For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, THREE HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 4: 6. “And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah FORTY DAYS. I have laid on you A DAY FOR EACH YEAR.”
So we have a DAY of punishment FOR A YEAR do we not?

However don’t we have A YEAR punishment FOR A DAY in the next verses?
Numbers 14: 33. “And your children shall wander in the wilderness FORTY YEARS, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.”

Numbers 14; 34. “AFTER THE NUMBER OF THE DAYS in which ye searched the land, even FORTY DAYS, each day for a YEAR, shall ye bear your iniquities, even FORTY YEARS, and ye shall know my breach of promise.”
Aren’t they two opposite time applications within those specific events?
So what relationship do they have to the 2300 ereb boqer other than an application?

Did you know that when they found the Ancient Sea Scrolls that the word sacrifice in Daniel 8: was not in these following verses?

Daniel 8: 11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Does anyone understand that these verses are speaking of the place of the daily and not the sacrifice?
And that the word ‘sacrifice’ was added by the translators that is why it is in italics?
So I have deleted that word.
Daniel 8: 12. “And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.”
Daniel 8: 13. “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?”

Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
That surely means six and a part years?

The time of the chezev/vision/s.
Daniel 8: 17. So HE CAME NEAR where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND O SON OF MAN: FOR THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Why is it that the angel Gabriel, came very close to Daniel, to make the specific point concerning the TIME of the vision yet Christians ignore him, why?

How important was the specific point about the TIME of the vision that would make the angel Gabriel repeat it?

Daniel 8: 19. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END of the indignation: FOR THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.
Is there anyone that thinks there is an end after the ‘LAST END?’

Why do Christians ID the Ram as the ancient power of The Medo/Persian empire of 539 BC 331 BC which lasted for 281 years?
Surely the timing is way too early considering verses 17 and 19 of Daniel 8 stipulated by Gabriel?

Daniel 8: 20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of 3120Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The word 3120Yavan, from which the Translators adapted the word ‘Grecia’ means something different.
In fact would you believe it means Gentile nations or can mean Westerners?

Geneses 10: 3. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
Geneses 10: 4.And the sons of JAVAN; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
Geneses 10: 5. BY THESES WERE THE ISLES OF THE GENTILES DIVIDED IN THEIR LANDS; EVERY ONE AFTER HIS TONGUE, after their families, IN THEIR NATIONS.

Geographical location of the vision.
Daniel 8: 2. “And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.”

Daniel 8: 3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood BEFORE THE RIVER a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Daniel 8: 4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
Daniel 8: 5. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came FROM THE WEST on the face of the whole earth, and TOUCHED NOT THE GROUND: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8: 6. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Here is my question. How is it that the rough goat meets the ram in battle at the river Ulai, which is now called the river Karun, in Iran, that geographical location is clearly stipulated by Gabriel yet the Greeks fought the Medo/Persians on the plains of Arbella over 1000 miles away?
Surely the time factor and geographical location must at least fit the chezev/vision/s?

Daniel 9: 25. “Know therefore and understand, from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times”

Above verse. “A commandment to restore and TO BUILD JERUSALEM”
Below verse. “a decree TO BUILD THIS HOUSE OF GOD.”

Ezra 5: 13. “But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God.”



They are both different and not connected in word or deed or the TIME allocated to Daniel chapters 8: and 9:

Daniel 9: is the expansion in more detail of Daniel 8: because the angel Gabriel, said I have come to give you understanding of the matter for you to consider the chezev/vision/s.
Daniel 9: 22. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth TO GIVE THEE SKILL IN UNDERSTANDING.
To understand what?
Daniel 9: 23. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore UNDERSTAND THE MATTER, AND CONSIDER THE VISION.

Is there anyone that would like to tell me who the LION with eagles wings represents and the bear with the leopard and fourth beast power?
Then I would like to ask some more questions if I may?

These are just a few questions to stimulate thoughts I have lots more if anyone is interested in pulling Daniel together please let me know?
PC

Hi Prophecy Countdown,


At the moment that is just exactly what I'm doing, working on the book of Daniel. However I'm not to the points of your questions just yet. Let me look over your post and see if I can answer at least some your questions sooner.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever ask anyone these questions before? And did you get answers if you did?


Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Hello Sir, I am pleased to be able to speak with you.

How interesting that you are studying Daniel, it is such an interesting book.
After 30 years of studying it I still find the book of Daniel more informative with each passing day.
Please take your time in answering any of my questions it is not urgent.

I placed those questions there to make my Brothers and Sisters in Jesus, look deeply into the fine detail of Daniel, it is within the minute detail that makes Daniel, relevant to our time.

I have had no satisfactory biblical answers to any of those and other questions.

I do claim that I have the right to be wrong in some of these matters and do not have all the answers by a long shot for the following biblical reason.
Daniel 12: 4. “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

I am watching intently the lion and yavan along with the bear at the moment and what they are doing in the Middle East and yes the higher horn on the ram is starting to come up in Daniel 8: 3. Yes it sounds like a riddle but it is not for those that understand.

Dear Brother Doc, if I can be of service to you please do not hesitate to ask me either here, by Email or by private message.

Your humble servant in our Lord Jesus.

PC

Jimlarmore said:

Textually for the IJ , the main biblical texts quoted by Seventh-day Adventists in support of the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement are Daniel 7:9-10, 1 Peter 4:17 and Revelation 20:12....For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (NIV)

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In what way do you feel this shows the Adventist IJ beginning in 1844? The context suggests it was speaking of something in Peter's own day, already going on.

1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

When quoting the passage in Great Controversy, chapter 28 on the Investigative Judgment Ellen White omitted the first part that dealt with the timing element:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17.


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A simple and straight forward question to anyone that may have the answer.

Who is the 'harlot' of Revelation 17?

Ice, Prophecy Countdown ask the question first. If you don't have a straight forward answer to give then please don't try to derail the intent of the question.

Respectfully,
Doc

icedragon101 said:

please tell us what is your view

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Dear icedragon101, I have had the greatest of fortune in meeting Brother Doc and he has the same interest as myself in studying the book of Daniel.
He was the only person kind enough to respond to my questions.

I want to work with Brother Doc so that he can see if I have made any errors in my thinking.
I believe him to be discerning in biblical study matters.

I don’t want a confrontation with anyone, I just want a gentle and respectful biblical discussion of the facts.
It may be that we do not agree but that’s OK at least we can look at the patterns and parallels of Daniel and bring other parts of the Bible, together to seek greater understanding.
See 2 Tim 2: 15.
So without causing you any offence and with the greatest of respect to you, I would prefer to discuss these matters firstly with Brother Doc.


Maranatha.

Your servant in Jesus. PC

tall73 said:

In what way do you feel this shows the Adventist IJ beginning in 1844? The context suggests it was speaking of something in Peter's own day, already going on.

1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

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The context of 1Peter 4:17 does not invalidate the truth or impact of the way sda's take's this verse. The verse states that judgement must begin with the house of God and His people. Indeed this may have been directed primarily at the church at Peter's time when he wrote it but this does not mean that God would only apply His practice of Judging His people first to this time only. God's practices are very predictable and we can trace them in the Bible. For instance God makes it a practice to "investigate" before He makes a major action. This investigation is not for Him who is all knowing but for His other onlooking intelligent creation.

When quoting the passage in Great Controversy, chapter 28 on the Investigative Judgment Ellen White omitted the first part that dealt with the timing element:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17.

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If she omitted the context it is because it does not change the truth of the verse as I have stated above.

I have looked at the rejection of E.G. White a little more deeply lately and the more I look the more I realize for the most part that it stems from a negative nit picking view of all she wrote. Finding small mistakes and magnifying them beyond reasonable consideration. I also have found that essetially no prophet of God was accepted by His people. Many of them were killed for telling the people what God commanded them to say.

God Bless
Jim Larmore