Old Believers

If I'm ever in that area, I'll definitely check it out. I found some pictures of the church and it's beautiful. I have their prayer book also and I love it.

The Church of the Nativity are not in schism as jckstraw pointed out, they are in ROCOR.

Wow you actually got to go? I've always wanted to go there. I have a friend who is a co-believer and talks to Fr. Pimeon. Did you get to talk to him? I might just go for the co-believer event that they're having in the summer... i think it's in the summer.

I want to be in the presence of those lestovka, padrushnik and big headscarfed and znamenny singing peoples, lols.
In fact, my husband and I are waiting for our mail to come in from Erie,PA. After learning about Old Ritualism and participating in Old-rite prayers with our old-ritualist friend, we ordered padurshnik's and the Old-Rite prayer book.

Tell us more about your experience.

JustinHesychast said:

So the current Church is wrong in an essential form of worship - crossing oneself.

Why did it change?

And I thought it was just cause it was Russian, as opposed to Greek, til the Russian whoever adopted the original Greek ways.

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Actually, in the earlier Church, the Orthodox Christians crossed themselves the way Old-Ritualists do today. However, the three fingers joined together (the way we cross ourself) is a reform from Nikon in Russia. Therefore, they didn't change the sign on the cross, we did.

However, this doesn't mean that the way we cross ourself isn't blessed. There were many Saints in the New-Rite who reposed in the Lord, and were found to have died with their hands positioned in the way we cross ourselves today.

Well, being somewhat of an Old Believer nerd I know a decent bit about them, so I'll try to dispel a few misunderstandings.

The Old Believer Schism is a result of the reforms of Patriarch Nikon in the mid 17th century. They rejected the reforms because they were unnecessary. Due to political reasons, The Tsar of the time had all the people who wouldn't conform arrested, many were even killed.

The people then fled to different Slavic areas, Siberia, Poland, Carpatho-Rus...

After so long all of the priests that decided to schism died, and no bishops went along with the old believers, so they didn't have priests anymore. These priestless groups later split into different groups due to different beliefs on what was acceptable for laypeople to do in the church since there was no priesthood now.

After a while I think in the early 19th century, there were a few Bishops from other Churches that consecrated Bishops for the old believers, and these groups still exist. The main group that did this are the Belokrinitsky synod under Metropolitan KORNILY.

However there are also several Churches that are canonical. The MP has a dozen or so Old Rite Parishes, and even one Old Rite Village called Michaileskaya Sloboda.

The Church that Jckstraw72 and I visited for Nativity came into the ROCOR in 1983 when Fr. Pimen (The now rector, at the time he was the layleader of the parish) decided after an intense reading of the Church Fathers that he wanted his parish to have priesthood.

I've been to that parish 3 times now, and spent plenty of hours talking to Fr. Pimen and Fr. Theodore, It's a great parish in general. Very loving people, the services are beautiful and it's at least 90% english (they're headed toward 100% eventually, some of their hymns havn't been set in english yet since Fr. Pimen is so busy)

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask.

And so you know, that parish is having a conference this summer for a week at $275 with everything included, you really can't beat that. I'll be there working for Fr. Pimen, It'd be great to see a lot of people there. For more info http://www.churchofthenativity.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=13&Itemid=79

Really interesting information. Makes me want to start crossing the original way.

So... are they in Communion with the Church? If not, sounds like they should be. Maybe Coptics soon, too!

Well even the Old Believer way of crossing yourself isn't the oldest, the oldest was to cross yourself with your thumb, but the Old Rite way and the current way are more theological.

I actually prefer the Old Rite way though, mostly because I find it more comfortable for my hand, but there's nothing more Orthodox about it.

This Erie Church is in communion with the rest of the Church because they are in the ROCOR. They even have their own Bishop, Bisho DANIEL.

JustinHesychast said:

Really interesting information. Makes me want to start crossing the original way.

So... are they in Communion with the Church? If not, sounds like they should be. Maybe Coptics soon, too!

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They're some that are in communion with us, including the one we're talking about right now. In order not to get these Old-Ritualists who are in communion with us confused with the Old Believers who are not, we then call the ones in communion with us "co-believers" and the ones who are not "Old-Believers"... this just makes it easier to differentiate between the two.

Sometimes I cross myself the original way.. but I'm still getting used to it.

So... the "original way" (minus the weird thumb one... lol) is basically putting the middle finger down to your palm with the thumb and pointer connecting and the other 3 on the palm?

JustinHesychast said:

So... the "original way" (minus the weird thumb one... lol) is basically putting the middle finger down to your palm with the thumb and pointer connecting and the other 3 on the palm?

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To Old Rite way is to take the pinky and ring finger and join them with your thumb, then take your pointer and middle fingers and put them up with the middle finger slightly bent to represent Christ becoming man. Just like you see in Icons for example

jckstraw72 said:

ah ok, i was wondering what a co-believer is.

and after the services Fr. Pimen had us over to his house for Nativity dinner -- at 130 in the morning! We had delicious ham, sausage and keische (sp?). Bishop DANIEL was also at the dinner but he is rather old and was quite tired so he pretty quiet.

The next day Fr. Pimen and people from the parish went around to various homes singing Nativity carols and we were able to catch it at one house near the parish. Twas a grand time overall.

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What a wonderful time you must've had. Fr. Pimen is so sweet, its so kind of him to invite you guys over, and at such a time! So you got to met Bsp. Daniel as well, that's wonderful!

Ya.... I really want to visit his parish!

Tsarina said:

What a wonderful time you must've had. Fr. Pimen is so sweet, its so kind of him to invite you guys over, and at such a time! So you got to met Bsp. Daniel as well, that's wonderful!

Ya.... I really want to visit his parish!

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Fr. Pimen always treats me very well whenever I'm there. I've been there the last two years for thanksgiving weekend with some others from St. Tikhon's. He puts us up in the Parishes community center for free and feeds us. (which is quite awesome of him since that's the Nativity fast for us, and he and his wife go out of their way to make sure we get fasting food, he even eats it with us when we go over his house).

Vladyka DANIEL was pretty out of it this time, his health has been severley declining the fast few years. Keep him in your prayers.

Nickolai said:

Fr. Pimen always treats me very well whenever I'm there. I've been there the last two years for thanksgiving weekend with some others from St. Tikhon's. He puts us up in the Parishes community center for free and feeds us. (which is quite awesome of Him since that's the Nativity fast for us, and he and his wife goes out of her way to make sure we get fasting food, he even eats it with us when we go over his house).

Vladyka DANIEL was pretty out of it this time, his health has been severley declining the fast few years. Keep him in your prayers.

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I've heard many wonderful things about Fr. Pimen. God willing, I will meet him one day when we come to St. T's. I don't know much about his wife though, do tell me her name.

Its sad to hear this about Vladyka Daniel, we'll pray for him.

That way is very uncomfortable.

Nickolai said:

To Old Rite way is to take the pinky and ring finger and join them with your thumb, then take your pointer and middle fingers and put them up with the middle finger slightly bent to represent Christ becoming man. Just like you see in Icons for example

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Okay, just have to say I cannot hold my hand like that long. Get uncomfortable.

Nikolai, is that you with Fr. Pimen in this picture? I found this pic on OC.

Tsarina said:

Nikolai, is that you with Fr. Pimen in this picture? I found this pic on OC.

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Yup, that's me looking over Fr. Pimen's shoulder. And yes I am proud to be 100% Geek Orthodork