PastorFreud and Dave, I'd love to continue this but I have to go. I'll try to respond to you, PastorFreud, when I get home. Thanks for joining in.
God bless,
Don
God bless,
Don
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Well, we've already discussed this---He does it all, but it is founded on our belief. And our disagreement is that you say "belief is bestowed by God", and I say "belief comes from our own hearts".Do you believe that God does all the work of salvation in a general sense, or do you mean that in a sense specific to you? Does God do ALL the work of salvation in you or did God, through the work of Christ, just do all the work of creating an opportunity for your salvation? Because to me, "all" means every bit, all of it, start to finish.
Okay, so you don't believe we are his children before we are saved but you believe anyone can be saved, right? How am I doing so far? And, what makes us his child is that we receive His Son, right? What does that mean to be His child? Is that an indicator of someone's salvation?
Okay, acknowledging your belief in man's ability to make any moral decision, free will, you believe that, conceivably, all men could have been saved, or even absolutely none because it is up to the person making the choice, right?
Gentleman?? Can't say I've ever heard that one before. LOL!
I don't know if you're married but let's assume you are not. Let's say we were close enough friends where I could conceivably set you up on a date. Let's say I came to you and said, "Okay Dave, Cindy or Sue, which one?" What would you say? Wouldn't you kinda need to know something about both of the perspective dates?
So what was God's basis for saving you, God's decision to save you or your decision to be saved? God standing at the door and knocking or you opening the door? God's offer of grace or you receiving it?
No offense but this is where I seriously think you drive a spike in God's sovereignty. God needed you to do something for His plan to be made manifest? What if God's plan for you was your salvation as you say is God's plan for everyone, but you said, "Naaah. I'll pass." Does the will of the Father hinge on the will of the creation?
So because you see someone say, "That whole religion bit isn't my bag baby" means that at that point they are rejecting God? Where is God in all that, sitting around waiting and hoping that man will choose Him? Don't you feel that makes the plan of the Creator subject to the will of the creation?
I don't mean to discount it. I just acknowledge that until God regenerated me I had no faith. I was fallen. Our faith in God is not something that was a remnant within us after the Fall. We were fallen. God put the faith there.
So God's grace comes when we have faith? You sure about that?
Matthew 5:45
He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
God's gives His grace to all mankind. We are alive only because of His grace. We shall not perish only because of His grace. He just limits His saving grace to His elect.
Cool, but check out 3 verses later:
Romans 5:5
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Where did our love for God come from?
1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.
And you take this to mean your action of believing is why you are justified, and your action of confessing is why you are saved?
Why did you quote a verse that says that faith is not from yourself but rather a gift of God, which by the way, is what I said? By the way, look at verse 5
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
Okay, we were dead and God saved us by His grace. Do you believe you loved God before He saved you?
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins
Well if God did the same thing to draw you, me and Joe Nobody to him what was it that made you and I choose Him then? You say there was nothing special about us, but it sounds to me like you think there was something special about us. Maybe less pride? More intellect? More humility? Something made us different, right? If our difference resulted in our everlasting life wouldn't you say that was a pretty special, even spectacular, difference?
Originally posted by DaveKerwin
You are doing fine so far. When we believe we are given the right to become children of God. While we were always belonging to him because he made us, we were without the spirit of sonship before our belief in Jesus.
I do believe all men have the option to be saved. Some end up having Christ, and some do not, but it was available to those who passed it by.
I think he is.
Ok, sure, I would want to know something. But if we were close enough friends, you would know if her and I would do well together or not. Show me where you are going with this.
I don't believe we can say it was just one of those. It was not my decision all by itself, not God's decision all by itself.
Let's look back to the garden. God gave them rules, but he did not force them. He offered them paradise, they liked it, but they chose to disobey and screw everything up. Please note that God did not stop them from sinning, also note he could have done so.
God is only interested in our genuine love.
Originally posted by DaveKerwin
He loves on us and asks for our love back.
Only in our choosing him do we show we truely love him. If God made us robots, he could have made us love him, but it would not be real love. What saved me was neither him knocking or me opening the door. Neither the offer of grace or the acceptance of it. It is multifaceted as far as I can see it. The offer was always on the table, but I accepted. It takes two to tango. It was the offer and the acceptance together, I think.
If I pray for a dodge viper srt10, he is likely not to make one magically appear in my driveway. If I pray for humility and a servant's heart, he is most likely to respond. If I do not pray for a servant's heart, I may not ever be much of a servant (not that this is some magical prayer of jabez type of formula, this is just an example.) I also believe that God will withhold certain things from us based on what we decide to do.
God does not sit around and twiddle his thumbs. See the above explanation.
I had no faith until he saved me, and faith was not in us when we were born. So far so good. I think God matures the faith we give him. If we give him just a mustard seed, he will accept it and make it grow.
Do you think we are unable to present any faith at all ??
When I said that, I meant this : The grace of God (forgiveness of sins) comes at the moment we believe. Before we accept Christ, we are unforgiven. If we are unforgiven, we have not grace.
I have not seen this statement true in scripture. Do you have a verse to show two different types of grace ?
What are you trying to prove with this ? The holy spirit is in us, yes, he indwells us. Yes, we love knowing God's love for us. The bible also says that he who has been forgiven much, loves much. I can say for myself that when I recognize how God has loved me, and how he has forgiven me, I love him so much more.
I don't see it necessarily as an action.
What do you see Romans 10: 9-10 to say ??
I quoted it because it says we are saved through faith. And you seem to disagree with that notion.
But it's right there in Ephesians. I see verse 5 to say that God saved us while we were yet sinners and while we were dead because of our transgressions. We have always been unable to not sin, and always unable to save ourselves. God has united us with Christ because we are unable to save ourselves. What else can it be saying ?
I do not believe I loved God before he saved me.
What made you and I choose him was the reality of our sin.
The difference between us and non believers is that we know of God's love and decided to love him back.
There are many people who you know that are unaware of the love of Christ, and would love God back if they only knew. Same for me.
All the law and the prophets depend on these two. Matt22:40Could you please share with me where you read that God "asks" us to love Him?
"With the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, AND with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation." Rm10:10 Belief preceeds salvation. The horse comes before the cart, not vice-versa."Believing" in your heart (seat of reason, inner man, intellect) and confessing (agreeing) with your mouth that Jesus is your Savior are fruits of being saved, not the means by which we attain our salvation.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
All the law and the prophets depend on these two. Matt22:40
Which commandments of God are "inviolable"?
Semantics. "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" are two of the commandments---but apparently many have the ability to violate those every day, don't they? Apparently there IS free will in that. So, when we say, "commandment", it is not speaking of something God DECREED ("for who can resist the BOULEMA-WILL of God?"), but it is more akin to a REQUEST---is it not? A request doesn't necesarrily mean the person MUST DO THE DEED (or "not" do the deed), it recognizes free will---of course there are consequences for disobeying, but this discussion is about "SALVATION"---and the place of "free will" IN that salvation, isn't it?Sounds a wee bit like a command, not a request. The fact that we don't keep that command has nothing to do with whether it's a command. If it was God "asking" us to keep His commandments that seriously implies that He is subject to whatever decision we make. Once again, we're back to the Creator being subject to the creation.
Actually, each and EVERY commandment of God is breakable. By choice. So too the GREAT commandment, "to LOVE GOD"---each man chooses whether to love the Light (Jesus, and God), or to love the darkness...I could only guess at this because I don't know every single one of God's commandments. I would say none.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
Semantics. "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" are two of the commandments---but apparently many have the ability to violate those every day, don't they? Apparently there IS free will in that. So, when we say, "commandment", it is not speaking of something God DECREED ("for who can resist the BOULEMA-WILL of God?"), but it is more akin to a REQUEST---is it not? A request doesn't necesarrily mean the person MUST DO THE DEED (or "not" do the deed), it recognizes free will---of course there are consequences for disobeying, but this discussion is about "SALVATION"---and the place of "free will" IN that salvation, isn't it?
...and, yes, He IS subject to the decision we make. If we receive Him, then we reign with Him, FOREVER! But if we reject Him, then we perish---but it is all by choice, all by our own belief...
Originally posted by Ben johnson
How interesting---God gave the "Ten Commandments", KNOWING that His elect had no choice BUT to follow them! (And His UNELECT of course will not follow them...)
If it is GOD who irresistibly saves or condemns, then most everything is reduced to pageantry---for the outcome has already been decided, we are just acting in a play.
I guess I cannot reach you, with Scripture.
You view God's "potency" and "sovereignty" as "all-encompassing"
---rejecting the premise that God can sovereignly choose to allow us free will in receiving grace or rejecting it---you lament, "I'm sorry you serve a God so impotent and unsovereign to be subject to the will of man".
I can demonstrate verse after verse that shows "salvation is caused by belief", yet you remain resolute in believing "belief is caused by salvation".
I do not know how to convince you---the Scriptures I have shared do not. If you had any Scripture in support of your position, I would understand better.
Whoahhhh.... Missed the "mark". Help me to understand, how, IF salvation is "provided for all who WILL believe", how that "places the work of salvation on OUR shoulders"? All I'm sayin' is that we choose to receive Him---and it is Christ-in-our-hearts that does the work of salvation IN and THROUGH us.If you, by your decision, catapaulted yourself into the arena of "worthy" what in the world did you need Christ to die for you for?
OK, in discussing "God's WILL", Scripturally, we really need to clarify the word, "WILL". From the Scripture, is it "BOULEMA", or "THELEMA"? There is quite a difference between the two...You said God's Will, His very plan, is subject to the decisions you make, right? Don't you believe it was God's will that you be saved?
Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Don, you seem to misunderstand my position still, I will post more on that, hopefully sooner than later. But I will post this for now : Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ. That is how and when my faith came, and it came from God. If you want to use that to find contradictions in what I say, then be my guest. We still have not talked on the phone in real time Peace.
[just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which he made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6
Hi again, Gabe! Overlooking all of the Scripture, like the "greenquote" above? I do have a retort for that, (think I have given it once before), but am willing to, again...
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Originally posted by Miss Shelby
I would offer this passage from Ephesians which seems to perfectly mirror the above Scripture. Kinda like two sides of the same coin.
"That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your Salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:12-13)
Michelle