What is salvation?

Reformationist · Oct 25, 2002

PastorFreud and Dave, I'd love to continue this but I have to go.  I'll try to respond to you, PastorFreud, when I get home.  Thanks for joining in.

God bless,

Don

DaveKerwin · Oct 25, 2002

I`ll respond later. Going offroading tomorrow, gotta get ready :clap:

Ben johnson · Oct 26, 2002

Dave---very, VERY good! BTW, when you have a large post and it gets deleted, try "right-clicking" on the blank box, then on the "pop-up" select "undo". You may hafta do it twice. My computer likes to capriciously delete entire paragraphs, to entire posts as I type. Blasted "trak-pad"... (I wanna track ball!)

Do you believe that God does all the work of salvation in a general sense, or do you mean that in a sense specific to you? Does God do ALL the work of salvation in you or did God, through the work of Christ, just do all the work of creating an opportunity for your salvation? Because to me, "all" means every bit, all of it, start to finish.

Well, we've already discussed this---He does it all, but it is founded on our belief. And our disagreement is that you say "belief is bestowed by God", and I say "belief comes from our own hearts".

1. Do we take the legal metaphor for salvation too far?
Salvation is fellowship with God & Christ. Simple, concise, succinct. 1Jn1:3,6

2. Is salvation a thing that we possess?
Yes. More precisely, we possess salvation, when we have CHRIST. Salvation is CHRIST IN US. Gal2:20, 1Jn5:12-13

3. How is the way we see salvation connected to the way we see sin? Is it really possible to talk about one apart from the other?
No. Sin is separation from God, sin is death. "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are made manifest (revealed)". 1Jn3:5-10---please look these verses up---I'm quoting only a fraction, the WHOLE PASSAGE is relevant...

4. I have seen suggestions that we are saved from something and others that we are saved for or toward something.
We are not saved "for Heaven"---Heaven is the happy by-product. We are saved from "sinfulness", from "separation from God". Salvation is FELLOWSHIP---we are saved towards dwelling in the presence of our Creator---being in His presence is the whole point. If you don't love HIM, Heaven holds no attraction.

5. What is our role in this salvation and what is God's?
God's predestination was JESUS-ON-THE-CROSS. Our role is to accept Him or reject Him. By receiving Him into our hearts, of our own volition, He then indwells us, working salvation in us. "And this is the will of God---that whoever beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life." Jn6:40 Receiving Jesus is NOT a work, but it is very much an action directed man-towards-God. There is no aspect of salvation that begins, continues, or ends without our own faith.

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.
He loved us BEFORE we were saved. He loves the unsaved too, and desires for them to be saved. He does not compell them.

Okay, we were dead and God saved us by His grace. Do you believe you loved God before He saved you?
We were dead until the moment we believed---it is at that moment that He made us "alive in Christ", through our belief.

God "draws/drags" everybody towards salvation (Jn12:32).

Those who BELIEVE (receive Jesus) are saved---those who disbelieve are condemned already. Jn3:18

Many of the CALLED/DRAWN/DRAGGED will not be chosen---because they DO NOT BELIEVE. Matt22:14

He just limits His saving grace to His elect.
But Paul says, "FOR AS condemnation came to ALL MEN, EVEN SO came justification to ALL MEN

(justification, salvation, CAME to all men IN EXACTLY THE SAME QUANTITY as condemnation came to all men)

How is it that you believe in "limited atonement"? Can you find ANY verse that supports LA?

Reformationist · Oct 26, 2002

I'm out Ben! :wave:

I'll be praying for you brother.

DaveKerwin · Oct 28, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist

Don, here we go again... round two begin ! muhuhahaha

Okay, so you don't believe we are his children before we are saved but you believe anyone can be saved, right?  How am I doing so far?  And, what makes us his child is that we receive His Son, right?  What does that mean to be His child?  Is that an indicator of someone's salvation?

You are doing fine so far. When we believe we are given the right to become children of God. While we were always belonging to him because he made us, we were without the spirit of sonship before our belief in Jesus.

Okay, acknowledging your belief in man's ability to make any moral decision, free will, you believe that, conceivably, all men could have been saved, or even absolutely none because it is up to the person making the choice, right?

I do believe all men have the option to be saved. Some end up having Christ, and some do not, but it was available to those who passed it by.

Gentleman??  Can't say I've ever heard that one before.  LOL!

I think he is.

I don't know if you're married but let's assume you are not.  Let's say we were close enough friends where I could conceivably set you up on a date.  Let's say I came to you and said, "Okay Dave, Cindy or Sue, which one?"  What would you say?  Wouldn't you kinda need to know something about both of the perspective dates?

Ok, sure, I would want to know something. But if we were close enough friends, you would know if her and I would do well together or not. Show me where you are going with this.

So what was God's basis for saving you, God's decision to save you or your decision to be saved?  God standing at the door and knocking or you opening the door?  God's offer of grace or you receiving it?

I don't believe we can say it was just one of those. It was not my decision all by itself, not God's decision all by itself. Let's look back to the garden. God gave them rules, but he did not force them. He offered them paradise, they liked it, but they chose to disobey and screw everything up. Please note that God did not stop them from sinning, also note he could have done so. God is only interested in our genuine love. He loves on us and asks for our love back. Only in our choosing him do we show we truely love him. If God made us robots, he could have made us love him, but it would not be real love. What saved me was neither him knocking or me opening the door. Neither the offer of grace or the acceptance of it. It is multifaceted as far as I can see it. The offer was always on the table, but I accepted. It takes two to tango. It was the offer and the acceptance together, I think.

No offense but this is where I seriously think you drive a spike in God's sovereignty.  God needed you to do something for His plan to be made manifest?  What if God's plan for you was your salvation as you say is God's plan for everyone, but you said, "Naaah.  I'll pass."  Does the will of the Father hinge on the will of the creation? 

Talking about God's will is just as complex as talking about the workings of salvation. I do not believe that the Father's will is bound by what we decide. But I do believe it plays a part in it. For example. God decides what he will and will not do. If I pray for a dodge viper srt10, he is likely not to make one magically appear in my driveway. If I pray for humility and a servant's heart, he is most likely to respond. If I do not pray for a servant's heart, I may not ever be much of a servant (not that this is some magical prayer of jabez type of formula, this is just an example.) I also believe that God will withhold certain things from us based on what we decide to do.

So because you see someone say, "That whole religion bit isn't my bag baby" means that at that point they are rejecting God?  Where is God in all that, sitting around waiting and hoping that man will choose Him?  Don't you feel that makes the plan of the Creator subject to the will of the creation? 

I cannot say at what point rejection has happened. I know people who reject Christ openly and loudly, and others who reject him simply because they heard the gospel and were disinterested in forgiveness of sins. God does not sit around and twiddle his thumbs. See the above explanation.

I don't mean to discount it.  I just acknowledge that until God regenerated me I had no faith.  I was fallen.  Our faith in God is not something that was a remnant within us after the Fall.  We were fallen.  God put the faith there.

I had no faith until he saved me, and faith was not in us when we were born. So far so good. I think God matures the faith we give him. If we give him just a mustard seed, he will accept it and make it grow. Do you think we are unable to present any faith at all ??

So God's grace comes when we have faith?  You sure about that?

Matthew 5:45
He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

When I said that, I meant this : The grace of God (forgiveness of sins) comes at the moment we believe. Before we accept Christ, we are unforgiven. If we are unforgiven, we have not grace.

God's gives His grace to all mankind.  We are alive only because of His grace.  We shall not perish only because of His grace.  He just limits His saving grace to His elect.

I have not seen this statement true in scripture. Do you have a verse to show two different types of grace ?

Cool, but check out 3 verses later:

Romans 5:5
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 

Where did our love for God come from?

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

What are you trying to prove with this ? The holy spirit is in us, yes, he indwells us. Yes, we love knowing God's love for us. The bible also says that he who has been forgiven much, loves much. I can say for myself that when I recognize how God has loved me, and how he has forgiven me, I love him so much more.

And you take this to mean your action of believing is why you are justified, and your action of confessing is why you are saved? 

I don't see it necessarily as an action. What I do know is that I have confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart. The bible says what wtih this, I am saved. What do you see Romans 10: 9-10 to say ??

Why did you quote a verse that says that faith is not from yourself but rather a gift of God, which by the way, is what I said?  By the way, look at verse 5

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Okay, we were dead and God saved us by His grace.  Do you believe you loved God before He saved you?
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins

I quoted it because it says we are saved through faith. And you seem to disagree with that notion. But it's right there in Ephesians. I see verse 5 to say that God saved us while we were yet sinners and while we were dead because of our transgressions. We have always been unable to not sin, and always unable to save ourselves. God has united us with Christ because we are unable to save ourselves. What else can it be saying ?

I do not believe I loved God before he saved me. I loved him knowing he saved me.

Well if God did the same thing to draw you, me and Joe Nobody to him what was it that made you and I choose Him then?  You say there was nothing special about us, but it sounds to me like you think there was something special about us.  Maybe less pride?  More intellect?  More humility?  Something made us different, right?  If our difference resulted in our everlasting life wouldn't you say that was a pretty special, even spectacular, difference?

What made you and I choose him was the reality of our sin. The difference between us and non believers is that we know of God's love and decided to love him back. There are many people who you know that are unaware of the love of Christ, and would love God back if they only knew. Same for me.

(sorry, super long post, there were just too many questions to keep it short. respond in whatever way you want. )

peace

Reformationist · Oct 28, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
You are doing fine so far. When we believe we are given the right to become children of God. While we were always belonging to him because he made us, we were without the spirit of sonship before our belief in Jesus.

So, before we believe we do not have the right to be sons of God?  Our right to be "sons of God" is a direct result of our belief?  Tell me, does being a "son of God" mean that you are saved? 

I do believe all men have the option to be saved. Some end up having Christ, and some do not, but it was available to those who passed it by.

So, as I said, if this be true, then you also must believe the inverse, that is, there is a possibility that no one would have chosen Christ, right?

I think he is.

Not disagreeing.  I've just never heard Him described this way.

Ok, sure, I would want to know something. But if we were close enough friends, you would know if her and I would do well together or not. Show me where you are going with this.

Me knowing whether or not the two of you are compatible is not a parallel to your opinion.  You believe you chose Christ, and Heaven, over hell even before you knew anything about them, and I'm not talking about having heard the Gospel.  I heard the Gospel but, even after, knew nothing about Christ, certainly not enough to decide whether I could believe in it.

I don't believe we can say it was just one of those. It was not my decision all by itself, not God's decision all by itself.

So it was a team effort between you and God?  Let me get this straight.  The way I understand what you are saying is that God, the being that created you, desired that you be saved.  But, He didn't create you saved, right?  You were born separated from Him.  You were His enemy the day you were born.  He knew that the Fall of mankind would happen yet He perpetuated the existance of mankind knowing that some would not "choose" Him and they would end up suffering eternal torment.  So, He created you, and though He is the Creator, and His Divine, Sovereign, Eternal, Immutable, Holy Plan is that you be saved, it was subject to whether or not you accepted?

Let's look back to the garden. God gave them rules, but he did not force them. He offered them paradise, they liked it, but they chose to disobey and screw everything up. Please note that God did not stop them from sinning, also note he could have done so.

Dave...come on man.  It is pointless to compare the ability of beings that were created with a nature THAT WAS NOT IN BONDAGE TO SIN to the nature of beings that are born, and live a large portion of their lives, in bondage to a sinful, depraved nature.

God is only interested in our genuine love.

As opposed to what other kind of love? Forced?  You seem to be forgetting that man was fallen and does not love God in his fallen state.  He hates God.  God is his enemy.  :scratch:

Dave, I have to go feed my kids.  I'll address the rest of this in a while.  Please don't post anything further on this until I've finished or I'll never catch up.

By the way, my wife is at a job interview.  Pray for us that it turns out well.

God bless,

Don

Reformationist · Oct 28, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
He loves on us and asks for our love back.

I agree that God loves Christians, but where we seem to differ is that I don't believe love (that's biblical love, not the feeling of love) is given to all man, at least not in the form of salvitic grace.  And just for the record, I don't believe it has anything to do with what man does first.  I also am not familiar with where the Bible tells us that God asks for anything, much less our love.  We are commanded to keep God's commandments, which includes "love the Lord with all your heart and soul and mind.  Could you please share with me where you read that God "asks" us to love Him?

Only in our choosing him do we show we truely love him. If God made us robots, he could have made us love him, but it would not be real love. What saved me was neither him knocking or me opening the door. Neither the offer of grace or the acceptance of it. It is multifaceted as far as I can see it. The offer was always on the table, but I accepted. It takes two to tango. It was the offer and the acceptance together, I think.

So, you do believe that until you "accepted," God's will could not be made manifest in your life?  What I'm asking is, if you believe it was God's Will that you be saved, and you had the capability to "deny" or "reject" God, then essentially, you had the ability to stop the Will of God.  Doesn't that sound like you're saying that your will for your life is more powerful than God's Will for your life?

If I pray for a dodge viper srt10, he is likely not to make one magically appear in my driveway. If I pray for humility and a servant's heart, he is most likely to respond. If I do not pray for a servant's heart, I may not ever be much of a servant (not that this is some magical prayer of jabez type of formula, this is just an example.) I also believe that God will withhold certain things from us based on what we decide to do.

Hmmm...do you think God is responding to your prayer?  You don't think that God's Plan was complete when it was sovereignly put into place?  For example, let's say it is God's Will that you learn compassion.  How would He bring this about?  I would think the best way to do it is put you in a position where you needed compassion, thereby teaching you how to give it.  His plan had included these measures from the get go.  Do you believe, in that case, if you instead prayed for the ability to evangelize God would instead give you your desire?  It really, really, seems like you keep implying that the Will of the Father is subject to your will.  Do you even see that coming across like that? 

God does not sit around and twiddle his thumbs. See the above explanation.

That's exactly what it seems like you are saying.  You said God's "offer was always on the table."  His offer, however, did not make your salvation manifest, right?  It was not until you accepted that you were doing the tango, right?  According to you, your salvation was not made manifest until you accepted, right?

I had no faith until he saved me, and faith was not in us when we were born. So far so good. I think God matures the faith we give him. If we give him just a mustard seed, he will accept it and make it grow.

This whole paragraph is contradictory.  You say you had no faith until He saved you and there was no faith in you when you were born, but you have said that the reason you are saved is because you put you faith in Him.  Even here you say "God matures the faith we give Him."  I don't get it.  You just said we had no faith to give Him.  Where did the faith come from that you put in Him to be saved?

Do you think we are unable to present any faith at all ??

When?  Before or after we're saved? 

When I said that, I meant this : The grace of God (forgiveness of sins) comes at the moment we believe. Before we accept Christ, we are unforgiven. If we are unforgiven, we have not grace.

If you have no grace what was it that even enabled you to repent and believe in the first place?  Do you believe it is part of the makeup of fallen man to be able to commit the righteous action of putting faith (which you said isn't there until after we're saved) in Christ? 

I have not seen this statement true in scripture. Do you have a verse to show two different types of grace ?

Well, there's plenty of verses that show this.  The most apparent being the one I posted in post number 40:

Matthew 5:45
He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 

Obviously God's salvitic grace is not bestowed upon those that He chooses to leave in their fallen state.  It is His salvitic grace that enables man to become a believer.  Even most of fallen man are not as bad as they could be.  We're not all Jeffrey Dahlmers.  It is God's grace that keeps man, saved and unsaved, from being as depraved as he possibly could be.

What are you trying to prove with this ? The holy spirit is in us, yes, he indwells us. Yes, we love knowing God's love for us. The bible also says that he who has been forgiven much, loves much. I can say for myself that when I recognize how God has loved me, and how he has forgiven me, I love him so much more.

Again, "love" in the Bible is an action word.  It is not a feeling.  When the Bible says "God loves us" it means He does something for us, something we need.  That thing we need is salvation.  He does not extend that love to all men.  The fact that you know God's love for you and can return that love by keeping His commandments is purely by His grace.  Also, he who has not been forgiven can not love.  Love is not in him.

I don't see it necessarily as an action.

Uhhh...why not? :scratch:

What do you see Romans 10: 9-10 to say ??

Do you know what confess means?  It means agree.  "Believing" in your heart (seat of reason, inner man, intellect) and confessing (agreeing) with your mouth that Jesus is your Savior are fruits of being saved, not the means by which we attain our salvation.  There are only about a trillion verses (exaggeration) that state that if our actions, i.e., believing, confession, are the means or method by which we are saved then we have something to boast about.  I believe that is what most do.  They boast that they have made the right decision.

I quoted it because it says we are saved through faith.  And you seem to disagree with that notion.

On the contrary, that is exactly what I believe.  I just believe that faith unto salvation is something that God gives us.  As a matter of fact, you seem to believe that too.  You have said that you "had no faith until He saved you" and "faith was not in us when we were born."

But it's right there in Ephesians. I see verse 5 to say that God saved us while we were yet sinners and while we were dead because of our transgressions. We have always been unable to not sin, and always unable to save ourselves. God has united us with Christ because we are unable to save ourselves. What else can it be saying ?

Nothing.  That is exactly what it is saying. 

I do not believe I loved God before he saved me.

Yet you believe you put all your trust, faith, belief and effort into serving Him?  Strange.  Why, if you did not love Him before He saved you, did you strive to please Him by dedicating your life to Him?

What made you and I choose him was the reality of our sin.

No.  When we were fallen we loved our flesh.  We loved our sin.  What made us turn from that is purely His grace.

The difference between us and non believers is that we know of God's love and decided to love him back.

We know of God's love because we are the recipient of God's love.  And, we received it before we gave it back.

There are many people who you know that are unaware of the love of Christ, and would love God back if they only knew. Same for me.

Dave, Dave, Dave.  You still think that God's Will is so tenuous that the thing standing in the way is that someone doesn't know of His love?  How did God ever accomplish anything in our lives before we "decided" to help Him out? 

Okay brother, there it is.  Try and research what I've said.  I'll do the same for what you've posted.

God bless

Ben johnson · Oct 29, 2002

Could you please share with me where you read that God "asks" us to love Him?

All the law and the prophets depend on these two. Matt22:40

Which commandments of God are "inviolable"?

"Believing" in your heart (seat of reason, inner man, intellect) and confessing (agreeing) with your mouth that Jesus is your Savior are fruits of being saved, not the means by which we attain our salvation.

"With the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, AND with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation." Rm10:10 Belief preceeds salvation. The horse comes before the cart, not vice-versa.

"PE" believes that "BORN-AGAIN" causes belief/faith-to-savation; "RG" believes that belief/faith-to-salvation causes "BORN-AGAIN". Which view is represented in Scripture? (Please cite the Scripture references...)

HINT: John6 presents "God-GIVING-them-to-Jesus" as PARALLEL to believing---there is nothing in the entire passage that presents "giving as preceeding their believing"; there is ONE GROUP who "is to be raised up"--- it is THEY whom God has GIVEN Jesus, AND it is ALSO the SAME group who has BELIEVED (6:39,40). Jesus is GOD---the passage asserts that---so they-who-believe-in-GOD, are given to JESUS; they are not given and THEN believe.

@ Don...

Reformationist · Oct 29, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
All the law and the prophets depend on these two. Matt22:40

That's God asking?

Matthew 22:37-39
Jesus said to him, ""You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

Sounds a wee bit like a command, not a request.  The fact that we don't keep that command has nothing to do with whether it's a command.  If it was God "asking" us to keep His commandments that seriously implies that He is subject to whatever decision we make.  Once again, we're back to the Creator being subject to the creation.

Which commandments of God are "inviolable"?

I could only guess at this because I don't know every single one of God's commandments.  I would say none.

God bless

Ben johnson · Oct 29, 2002

Sounds a wee bit like a command, not a request. The fact that we don't keep that command has nothing to do with whether it's a command. If it was God "asking" us to keep His commandments that seriously implies that He is subject to whatever decision we make. Once again, we're back to the Creator being subject to the creation.

Semantics. "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" are two of the commandments---but apparently many have the ability to violate those every day, don't they? Apparently there IS free will in that. So, when we say, "commandment", it is not speaking of something God DECREED ("for who can resist the BOULEMA-WILL of God?"), but it is more akin to a REQUEST---is it not? A request doesn't necesarrily mean the person MUST DO THE DEED (or "not" do the deed), it recognizes free will---of course there are consequences for disobeying, but this discussion is about "SALVATION"---and the place of "free will" IN that salvation, isn't it?

I could only guess at this because I don't know every single one of God's commandments. I would say none.

Actually, each and EVERY commandment of God is breakable. By choice. So too the GREAT commandment, "to LOVE GOD"---each man chooses whether to love the Light (Jesus, and God), or to love the darkness...

...and, yes, He IS subject to the decision we make. If we receive Him, then we reign with Him, FOREVER! But if we reject Him, then we perish---but it is all by choice, all by our own belief...

Reformationist · Oct 29, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Semantics. "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" are two of the commandments---but apparently many have the ability to violate those every day, don't they? Apparently there IS free will in that. So, when we say, "commandment", it is not speaking of something God DECREED ("for who can resist the BOULEMA-WILL of God?"), but it is more akin to a REQUEST---is it not? A request doesn't necesarrily mean the person MUST DO THE DEED (or "not" do the deed), it recognizes free will---of course there are consequences for disobeying, but this discussion is about "SALVATION"---and the place of "free will" IN that salvation, isn't it?

Ben, you're confusing what the purpose of the Law was.  It was never meant to keep you on the straight and narrow.  It was just given to tell you when you weren't.  The Law cannot save.  It can only condemn.  To say that the Law cannot make you do one thing or another is irrelevent.  What is relevent is that we've been told what is pleasing and what is not.  We have not been asked to keep the Law.  We have been told to keep the Law.  We have been told to love God and others, not asked. 

...and, yes, He IS subject to the decision we make. If we receive Him, then we reign with Him, FOREVER! But if we reject Him, then we perish---but it is all by choice, all by our own belief...

I sure am glad I worship a God that is more powerful than I am.  I live with me.  I know how often I make sinful choices.  I am so glad that God loves me more than I love Him.  I am so glad that God saved me despite the fact that I continue to act in ungodliness.  I am so glad that my God is not subject to me.

It must be terrifying serving a god that is so impotent as to be subject to the will of the creation.

God bless

Ben johnson · Oct 29, 2002

How interesting---God gave the "Ten Commandments", KNOWING that His elect had no choice BUT to follow them! (And His UNELECT of course will not follow them...)

This attitude by God persisted through the "New Covenant", in Jesus. Those who are saved now, have no choice in it, just like the others (under the "Old Covenant", "Law",) had no choice whether to believe or not.

Thus, the COMMANDMENTS, the tablets of stone, were DEMONSTRATIVE rather than EFFECTIVE. They were PAGEANTRY---just as Christ-on-the-Cross was PAGEANTRY---not effective.

If it is GOD who irresistibly saves or condemns, then most everything is reduced to pageantry---for the outcome has already been decided, we are just acting in a play.

I guess I cannot reach you, with Scripture. You view God's "potency" and "sovereignty" as "all-encompassing"---rejecting the premise that God can sovereignly choose to allow us free will in receiving grace or rejecting it---you lament, "I'm sorry you serve a God so impotent and unsovereign to be subject to the will of man".

I believe that God has DECREED that each man who WILLS to believe, is saved. You believe that God has DECREED that each SAVED man WILL believe, without choice. I can demonstrate verse after verse that shows "salvation is caused by belief", yet you remain resolute in believing "belief is caused by salvation". I do not know how to convince you---the Scriptures I have shared do not. If you had any Scripture in support of your position, I would understand better.

I guess we will just have to disagree, until "The Perfect" comes, and one of us will be proven right.

Meanwhile, God bless ya', bro'...

Reformationist · Oct 29, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
How interesting---God gave the "Ten Commandments", KNOWING that His elect had no choice BUT to follow them! (And His UNELECT of course will not follow them...)

Ten commandments?  That's how many you've found in the Bible?  You might want to check that again.  There are a lot more than ten commandments.  The Law is the Word of God, not the Ten Commandments on the stone tablets.

If it is GOD who irresistibly saves or condemns, then most everything is reduced to pageantry---for the outcome has already been decided, we are just acting in a play.

If you're saved what do you care is the reason?  Is it so important that you be able to say you persisted in the faith?  Is it so important that you be able to boast about your decision?  Or your faithfulness?  Why is the thought that God loves you so much that He rescued you when you were dead and unable to turn to Him, He caused you to love Him, and He sanctifies you through the course of your life so detestable to you?  Must you have had a hand in it for it to be worthwhile? 

I guess I cannot reach you, with Scripture.

Of course you can, just not this misinterpretation of it that seeks so hard to elevate oneself to the place of Christ.  If you, by your decision, catapaulted yourself into the arena of "worthy" what in the world did you need Christ to die for you for?

You view God's "potency" and "sovereignty" as "all-encompassing"

Of course.  I view God as God, not some impotent being who can only sit back and be subject to the way His creation unfolds history.

---rejecting the premise that God can sovereignly choose to allow us free will in receiving grace or rejecting it---you lament, "I'm sorry you serve a God so impotent and unsovereign to be subject to the will of man".

I'm sorry, don't you?  You said God's Will, His very plan, is subject to the decisions you make, right?  Don't you believe it was God's will that you be saved?  Yet you acknowledge that though it was the very Will of the Creator you had the ability to overcome His Will and "reject" salvation.  Is that not what you say?  Sorry Ben, your interpretation of God's sovereign rule doesn't sound very sovereign to me. 

I can demonstrate verse after verse that shows "salvation is caused by belief", yet you remain resolute in believing "belief is caused by salvation".

I'm sure you can, if you misinterpret Scripture.

I do not know how to convince you---the Scriptures I have shared do not. If you had any Scripture in support of your position, I would understand better.

This is so ridiculous it's almost funny.  First off, you can't "convince" me.  Secondly, I have, time and time again, shown you Scripture that supports my position.  The beliefs that I believe in didn't start with me.  They are held by people far more learned than you and I put together.  If your view was so obvious and mine so unsupported, as you claim, don't you think those people would have figured it out by now?  Do you think you have some special revelation that they don't? 

God bless you too man.

Gabriel · Oct 29, 2002

Hi Ben!

You have me convinced.  I have left this arguement alone while I studied and studied and I have to admit that you are correct sir.  We are saved because we believe and through that belief we choose to follow God.

However, it is not of us or our works "lest any man should boast".  It is of "God who shows mercy".  We believe because He awakens us from the trap of sin and it is this that allows us to believe.  He starts and finishes this good work in us.  We are simply receiving something that we do not deserve. 

Can we resist His salvation?  No.  See John 6:37 All that my Father gives Me will come (not may come if they choose) to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

According to scripture Salvation is: A Gift from God, freely given to ALL of His Elect at the moment of conversion, made possible by the awakening of our spirit.  It is a cleansing of sin, the creation of a new being, sanctified by Christ's death and resurrection.

Oh wait. maybe I don't quite agree with you.  I am having too much trouble overlooking all this scripture.

Ben johnson · Oct 30, 2002

If you, by your decision, catapaulted yourself into the arena of "worthy" what in the world did you need Christ to die for you for?

Whoahhhh.... Missed the "mark". Help me to understand, how, IF salvation is "provided for all who WILL believe", how that "places the work of salvation on OUR shoulders"? All I'm sayin' is that we choose to receive Him---and it is Christ-in-our-hearts that does the work of salvation IN and THROUGH us.

You said God's Will, His very plan, is subject to the decisions you make, right? Don't you believe it was God's will that you be saved?

OK, in discussing "God's WILL", Scripturally, we really need to clarify the word, "WILL". From the Scripture, is it "BOULEMA", or "THELEMA"? There is quite a difference between the two...

I have, time and time again, shown you Scripture that supports my position.
Yes, and I appreciate your time and trouble. I've taken the Scriptures that you have presented, and shown them in support of "RG"---and presented Scriptures that I do not believe can be harmonized with "PE". Some of these you reject as "hyperbole, not to be taken as they are written", some as "not applicable to us but only to the JEWS" (much of Hebrews is ignored thusly) (is "thusly" a word?), and some are rejected outright (like the apostasy verses such as 2Pet2:20-22---you say "they were never saved"). I find far more credibility in the "Responsible Grace" taking of verses at face value, than in "Predestined-Election" following special interpretations and understandings as to what verses REALLY mean. Perhaps we will always disagree. Well, until Jesus returns...

The beliefs that I believe in didn't start with me. They are held by people far more learned than you and I put together. If your view was so obvious and mine so unsupported, as you claim, don't you think those people would have figured it out by now? Do you think you have some special revelation that they don't?
There are alotta people who hold to "Responsible Grace". Now think about one word you just used: "LEARNED"---from where do you think they got their learning? Was it not from the Bible? I have this simplistic belief, that the Bible, inspired by God, is intended to be understood by common folk. And while it is helpful to understand Greek (and Hebrew) in some cases, I believe that the majority of the text is clear and plain. Do I have some special revelation, or am I smarter than they? I do not think so. I just am willing to read, at face value: "The FALSE seek to entice the TRUE; for if, after having ESCAPED the defilements through the TRUE knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they are again entangled and overcome, they are worse than BEFORE they were escaped. Far better to have never KNOWN the true way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN to have TURNED AWAY from the holy commandment". PE people on the other hand, must carefully weave into this, "They weren't REALLY escaped" (even though it uses the exact same words as the UNDENIABLY saved in chapter 1, but somehow YOU have a "special revelation" that this is DIFFERENT, the CHAPTER TWO escapees WERE NOT saved). I just don't find credibility in the "complicated weaving", but rather in the "simple face-value". I think God meant it to be read at face value. So too with James 5:19-20, and 1Tim4:1, 2Tim2:11-13, Heb3:12-14, and many many others...

(Hope I wasn't too "tacky" with my "special revelation" barb backatchya...

)

Oh wait. maybe I don't quite agree with you. I am having too much trouble overlooking all this scripture.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which he made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

Hi again, Gabe! Overlooking all of the Scripture, like the "greenquote" above? I do have a retort for that, (think I have given it once before), but am willing to, again...

DaveKerwin · Oct 30, 2002

This thread is turning into a heafty time investment, but I think its worth it.

Ben, I agree with on for the most part.

Don, you seem to misunderstand my position still, I will post more on that, hopefully sooner than later. But I will post this for now : Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ. That is how and when my faith came, and it came from God. If you want to use that to find contradictions in what I say, then be my guest. We still have not talked on the phone in real time

Peace.

Reformationist · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Don, you seem to misunderstand my position still, I will post more on that, hopefully sooner than later. But I will post this for now : Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ. That is how and when my faith came, and it came from God. If you want to use that to find contradictions in what I say, then be my guest. We still have not talked on the phone in real time Peace.

Give me a little while and I'll be able to respond.  I am super busy at work right now.

God bless

Miss Shelby · Oct 30, 2002

[just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which he made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

Hi again, Gabe! Overlooking all of the Scripture, like the "greenquote" above? I do have a retort for that, (think I have given it once before), but am willing to, again...

[/B]

I would offer this passage from Ephesians which seems to perfectly mirror the above Scripture.  Kinda like two sides of the same coin.

"That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your Salvation:  in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:12-13)

Michelle

Gabriel · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
I would offer this passage from Ephesians which seems to perfectly mirror the above Scripture.  Kinda like two sides of the same coin.

"That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your Salvation:  in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:12-13)

Michelle

I don't disagree that we trust, hear, and believe.  My point is that we wouldn't hear or trust wholly of our own accord.  It is the Spirit that awakens us from our state of sleep and enables us to see the truth in that we need God.  It is this awakening that causes us to seek after Him. 

I'm not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing.  You know what salvation is and what it does for unholy man and I praise Him that you are one of his elect, even if you don't agree with election.

Ben johnson · Oct 30, 2002

Hi, Miss Shelby!

Excellent verse! I think that is identical to the passage Dave gave, from Romans 10---faith comes by hearing. What Gabe & Don seem to be saying, is that "faith comes from GOD"---thus my retort, "by grace have you been saved through grace"---'cause if saving-faith is bestowed by GOD, then it is not really FAITH it is a second dispensation of GRACE---"by grace through grace"; while, on the other hand, if faith comes from our HEARTS (as Paul proclaims in Rm 10:10), then it truly is "by grace through faith".

"FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION", btw, is interchangeable with "BELIEF", with "RECEIVING CHRIST", with "BORN-AGAIN", etc...

I don't disagree that we trust, hear, and believe. My point is that we wouldn't hear or trust wholly of our own accord. It is the Spirit that awakens us from our state of sleep and enables us to see the truth in that we need God. It is this awakening that causes us to seek after Him.

Am I right about what you believe, Gabe? That the Spirit only awakens whom God has chosen? Atonement is LIMITED in offering? He only calls/enables/saves SOME that He chose BEFOREHAND?

What is salvation?

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Represent the Most High

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Represent the Most High

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

Legend

Represent the Most High

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Legend

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

Legend

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