rapture question

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Bible2

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WailingWall said in post #72:
... the Day of the Lord starts after the trib period.

That's right. It starts at the second coming.

"Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who
shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be
blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ"
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

The day of the Lord can't include the tribulation
because only the Lord can be exalted in the day of
the Lord:

"The LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the
day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that
is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted
up; and he shall be brought low" (Isaiah 2:11-12).

During the tribulation, the dragon Satan and the
Antichrist, the beast, will be exalted:

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto
the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who
is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with
him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking
great things and blasphemies; and power was given
unto him to continue forty and two months. And he
opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to
blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that
dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make
war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power
was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and
nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall
worship him, whose names are not written in the book
of life" (Revelation 13:4-8).

WailingWall had quoted:
MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of
those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON
SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #73:
rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixeth
seal, and lo there was a great earthquake; and the
sun became black as a sackcloth of hair, and the
moon became as blood. Joel 2:31,

Notice that verse says after the trib....

this ones says it at the Six seal before the mid trib.

That's right. The event of Matthew 24:29 is a
different event than the event of Revelation 6:12
and Joel 2:31.

The event of Matthew 24:29 is after the tribulation,
at the second coming and rapture:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from
heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of
man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory. And he shall send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together
his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).

The event of Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 is during
the tribulation, and so is before the day of the
Lord:

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon
into blood, before the great and the terrible day of
the LORD come" (Joel 2:31).

The event of Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 could
occur years before the day of the Lord, because it
occurs at the sixth seal of the tribulation:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,
and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun
became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon
became as blood" (Revelation 6:12).

Many events must transpire between the sixth seal
and the second coming. Right after the sixth seal,
the seventh seal releases the seven trumpets:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was
silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets" (Revelation
8:1-2).

And after all of the events of the seven trumpets
have happened, then all of the events of the seven
vials of wrath have to happen:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Revelation
16:1).

The second coming has not yet occurred by the time
of the vials, for after the sixth vial Jesus says:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk
naked, and they see his shame" (Revelation 16:15).

The second coming doesn't happen until after the
tribulation, after all of the events of the seals
and trumpets and vials have been completed.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;
and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and
True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make
war" (Revelation 19:11).

The second-coming event of Matthew 24:29 is a
different event than the tribulation event of
Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 not only in its timing,
but also in that the second coming event involves the
moon giving no light:

"The moon shall not give her light" (Matthew 24:29).

While the tribulation event involves the moon giving
a blood-red light:

"The moon became as blood" (Revelation 6:12).

WailingWall had said:
Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be
darkened and the moon wont be shining.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #73:
I do not see the day of the LORD

Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 is the same second-
coming, Day of the Lord event, as Isaiah 13:9-10:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with
wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate:
and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations
thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not
cause her light to shine" (Isaiah 13:9-10).

"The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light ... And then shall they see the Son of
man coming in the clouds with great power and glory"
(Mark 13:24,26).

A Brother In Christ quoted in post #73:
1 thes 5:3 For when they shall say Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them , as a
child; and they shall not escape.

This could refer to the worshippers of the Antichrist
during the tribulation. When the two witnesses are
killed by the Antichrist near the end of the
tribulation, the whole world will celebrate as if
their worries are over:

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice
over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one
to another; because these two prophets tormented them
that dwelt on the earth" (Revelation 11:10).

But then the vials of God's wrath could suddenly come
upon them, and they shall not escape:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the
first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the
men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them
which worshipped his image ... And the fifth angel
poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and
his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed
their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of
heaven because of their pains and their sores"
(Revelation 16:1-2,10-11).
 
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Bible2

Guest
A Brother In Christ said in post #73:
US ... Brethren ye have no need to write unto you..
except for your knowledge! 1 thes 5:1 vs 2 Day of
the Lord

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have
no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know
perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a
thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2).

This is referring to the second coming, which will
not yet have occurred by the sixth vial:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk
naked, and they see his shame" (Revelation 16:15).

A Brother In Christ said in post #73:
1 thes 1:10 b even Jesus, which delivered us from the
wrath to come.1 thes 5:9, romans 5:9

Those refer to that eternal wrath which is opposed to
salvation:

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to
obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"
(1 Thessalonians 5:9).

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see
life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"
(John 3:36).

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of
God, which is poured out without mixture into the
cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented
with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the
smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and
ever: and they have no rest day nor night"
(Revelation 14:10-11).

No verse in the Bible says that those who are saved
will not have to endure the tribulation. The Bible
even says the opposite:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew
24:9-12).

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"
(Revelation 13:10).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto
me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the
Lord from henceforth" (Revelation 14:12-13).

The Bible nowhere requires that any of the seals or
the trumpets of the tribulation are the wrath of
God, or that any of the vials of wrath will be
directed against the Christians on the earth at that
time. So Christians can go through the entire
tribulation without ever being "appointed to wrath"
even in a temporary sense.

A Brother In Christ said in post #73:
1 thes 4:16-18 Rapture and comfort one another

For Christians, the comfort of the rapture is not
that they won't have to go through the tribulation,
for tribulation and comfort are not mutually
exclusive:

"I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in
all our tribulation" (2 Corinthians 7:4).

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all
comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation,
that we may be able to comfort them which are in any
trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are
comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ
abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by
Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your
consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the
enduring of the same sufferings which we also
suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your
consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is
stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the
sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation"
(2 Corinthians 1:3-7).

The comfort of the rapture is that we will see our
departed loved ones again, at the second coming:

"I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep [dead], that ye
sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For
if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even
so them also which sleep [are dead] in Jesus will
God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the
word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them
which are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are
alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and
so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort
one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians
4:13-18).

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that,
whether we wake or sleep [live or die], we should
live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves
together" (1 Thessalonians 5:9-11).

A Brother In Christ said in post #73:
3 different gathering of God's people 1 cor 15:23-24

"But every man in his own order: Christ the
firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his
coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have
delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:23-24).

This refers first to the resurrection of Christ, then
to the resurrection of the church at His second
coming, and then to the end of His millennial reign.

The Bible refers to only one gathering of the church,
at the second coming, after the tribulation:

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"After that tribulation ... then shall they see the
Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and
glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall
gather together his elect from the four winds, from
the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part
of heaven" (Mark 13:24-27).

It's important that Christians not have any false
hope of a gathering before or during the tribulation,
for when this doesn't happen, it could affect their
faith in God:

"He that received the seed into stony places, the
same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy
receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but
dureth for a while: for when tribulation or
persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he
is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew
24:9-12).

"And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and
hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they
shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and
curse their king and their God, and look upward. And
they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble
and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be
driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

"The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy
4:1).

"There come a falling away [apostasia]"
(2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Jesus has told us ahead of time what we will have to
face so we can prepare ourselves for it.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants things which must
shortly come to pass ... I Jesus have sent mine angel
to testify unto you these things in the churches"
(Revelation 1:1, 22:16)

"Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all
things" (Mark 13:23).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).
 
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A Brother In Christ

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That's right. It starts at the second coming.

"Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who
shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be
blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ"
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
there are many a day...
day of man 1 cor 4
day of Christ .. phil 1:6, 2:16
day of the Lord ... 1 thes 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, 2 thes 2:2
day of God .. 2 peter 3:12
day of wrath ... romans 2:5
The day of the Lord can't include the tribulation
because only the Lord can be exalted in the day of
the Lord:

"The LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the
day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that
is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted
up; and he shall be brought low" (Isaiah 2:11-12).

During the tribulation, the dragon Satan and the
Antichrist, the beast, will be exalted:
and how will they stop the wrath of God coming during the whole seven years of the Great TRibulation God's wrath will come slowly at first then the wrath will be poured out full upon the earth
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto
the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who
is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with
him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking
great things and blasphemies; and power was given
unto him to continue forty and two months. And he
opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to
blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that
dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make
war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power
was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and
nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall
worship him, whose names are not written in the book
of life" (Revelation 13:4-8).



That's right. The event of Matthew 24:29 is a
different event than the event of Revelation 6:12
and Joel 2:31.
ok
The event of Matthew 24:29 is after the tribulation,
at the second coming and rapture:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from
heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of
man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory. And he shall send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together
his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).

The event of Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 is during
the tribulation, and so is before the day of the
Lord:
2 thes 2:2 b day of the Lord is at hand
2 thes 2:3 rapture...then the beast is revealed
2 thes 2:4 Beast sitteth in the temple dan 9:27
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon
into blood, before the great and the terrible day of
the LORD come" (Joel 2:31).

The event of Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 could
occur years before the day of the Lord, because it
occurs at the sixth seal of the tribulation:
I love people who teach in maybe's instead of power of God ... waste of time for everyone .... unlearned one that wants to argue
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,
and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun
became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon
became as blood" (Revelation 6:12).

Many events must transpire between the sixth seal
and the second coming. Right after the sixth seal,
the seventh seal releases the seven trumpets:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was
silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets" (Revelation
8:1-2).

And after all of the events of the seven trumpets
have happened, then all of the events of the seven
vials of wrath have to happen:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Revelation
16:1).
Yet at the sixth seal the wording states they are in the middle of wrath... in the present tense

rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand.

Thank God we are under no wrath as christian in Christ
1 thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to [any quality of] wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
The second coming has not yet occurred by the time
of the vials, for after the sixth vial Jesus says:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk
naked, and they see his shame" (Revelation 16:15).

The second coming doesn't happen until after the
tribulation, after all of the events of the seals
and trumpets and vials have been completed.
this one is right...
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;
and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and
True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make
war" (Revelation 19:11).

The second-coming event of Matthew 24:29 is a
different event than the tribulation event of
Revelation 6:12 and Joel 2:31 not only in its timing,
but also in that the second coming event involves the
moon giving no light:
very good noticing a few differents

"The moon shall not give her light" (Matthew 24:29).

While the tribulation event involves the moon giving
a blood-red light:

"The moon became as blood" (Revelation 6:12).



Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 is the same second-
coming, Day of the Lord event, as Isaiah 13:9-10:
So no one is under wrath in rev 6:17... which is before ... gotta rethink and study this out more
"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with
wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate:
and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


For the stars of heaven and the constellations
thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not
cause her light to shine" (Isaiah 13:9-10).

"The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light ... And then shall they see the Son of
man coming in the clouds with great power and glory"
(Mark 13:24,26).



This could refer to the worshippers of the Antichrist
during the tribulation. When the two witnesses are
killed by the Antichrist near the end of the
tribulation, the whole world will celebrate as if
their worries are over:

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice
over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one
to another; because these two prophets tormented them
that dwelt on the earth" (Revelation 11:10).

But then the vials of God's wrath could suddenly come
upon them, and they shall not escape:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
prior to this during the beginning ... wrath was dripped out...
And the
first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the
men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them
which worshipped his image ... And the fifth angel
poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and
his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed
their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of
heaven because of their pains and their sores"
(Revelation 16:1-2,10-11).


I do not know everything But I know you need to learn more
 
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Bible2

Guest
Bible2 had said:
[The day of the Lord] starts at the second coming.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #83:
there are many a day...
day of man 1 cor 4
day of Christ .. phil 1:6, 2:16
day of the Lord ... 1 thes 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, 2 thes 2:2
day of God .. 2 peter 3:12
day of wrath ... romans 2:5

"The day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6) and "the
day of Christ" (Philippians 2:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:2)
are the same as "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians
5:2; 2 Peter 3:10) and "the day of God" (2 Peter
3:12) and "the day of wrath" (Romans 2:5), for the
day of the Lord is "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ"
(1 Corinthians 1:8) and He is God (John 1:1,14) and
He will bring wrath: "He treadeth the winepress of
the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Revelation
19:15).

Bible2 had said:
During the tribulation, the dragon Satan and the
Antichrist, the beast, will be exalted.
---
A Brother In Christ replied in post #83:
and how will they stop the wrath of God coming during
the whole seven years of the Great TRibulation God's
wrath will come slowly at first then the wrath will
be poured out full upon the earth

The dragon Satan and the Antichrist, the beast, will
not be exalted until the middle of the tribulation;
they will rule the world only during the latter half
of the tribulation: "And they worshipped the dragon
which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped
the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who
is able to make war with him? And there was given
unto him a mouth speaking great things and
blasphemies; and power was given unto him to
continue forty and two months" (Revelation 13:4-5).

These 42 months could begin after the seven seals
(Revelation 6) and the first six trumpets
(Revelation 8-9) have happened, so that the seven
seals and first six trumpets would happen during the
first half of the tribulation. Nothing requires that
any of the seals or trumpets are the wrath of God.
The plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath
(Revelation 16) could come out of the temple-
opening of the seventh trumpet after the 42 months
are over:

"And the seventh angel sounded ... And the temple of
God was opened in heaven" (Revelation 11:15,19).

"And, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the
testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels
came out of the temple, having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen, and having their
breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the
four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden
vials full of the wrath of God" (Revelation 15:5-7).

Satan and the Antichrist, the beast, will not be
able to do anything about God's wrath in these seven
vials:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the
first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the
men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them
which worshipped his image ... And the fifth angel
poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and
his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed
their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of
heaven because of their pains and their sores"
(Revelation 16:1-2,10-11).

A Brother In Christ said in post #83:
2 thes 2:2 b day of the Lord is at hand

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together
unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by
letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at
hand" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Here "the day of Christ" is the same day as "the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him", which is after the
tribulation:

"Immediately after the tribulation ... they shall see
the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory. And he shall send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).

A Brother In Christ said in post #83:
2 thes 2:3 rapture...then the beast is revealed
2 thes 2:4 Beast sitteth in the temple dan 9:27

Exactly the opposite. Paul is making clear that the
day of the second coming and rapture cannot happen
until sometime after an apostasy occurs in the
church and the beast, the Antichrist, is revealed
and sits in the temple:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away
[apostasia] first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth
himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple
of God, shewing himself that he is God"
(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

The coming of Christ must destroy the Antichrist:
"Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his
mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
coming [parousia]" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Before the second coming, Christians will have to
patiently endure the reign of the Antichrist:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the
saints, and to overcome them" (Revelation 13:7).

Jesus told us that we would see the abomination of
desolation:

"Ye therefore shall see the abomination of
desolation" (Matthew 24:15).

That's when the Antichrist will sit in a rebuilt
Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God.

A Brother In Christ said in post #83:
... at the sixth seal the wording states they are in
the middle of wrath

The wording of Revelation 6:16-17 is spoken only by
terrified unbelievers, who could be as mistaken about
the sixth seal being the wrath of God as Job was
mistaken about his sufferings being the wrath of God
instead of the wrath of Satan:

"Know now that God hath overthrown me ... He hath
also kindled his wrath against me" (Job 19:6,11).

The truth is that God had no wrath against righteous
Job. But God still let Job suffer:

"Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in
the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering
affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them
happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of
Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the
Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James
5:10-11).

A Brother In Christ said in post #83:
Thank God we are under no wrath as christian in Christ
1 thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to [any
quality of] wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord
Jesus Christ

That refers to wrath which is opposed to obtaining
salvation. It in no way means that those who have
obtained salvation can't go through the coming
tribulation, for the Bible refers to Christians on
the earth throughout the tribulation:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9).

"And it was said unto them, that they should rest yet
for a little season, until their fellowservants also
and their brethren, that should be killed as they
were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:11).

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the
throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white
robes ... These are they which came out of great
tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made
them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation
7:9,14).

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went
to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep
the commandments of God, and have the testimony of
Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17).

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"
(Revelation 13:10).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

"Them that had gotten the victory over the beast"
(Revelation 15:2).

"Them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
(Revelation 20:4).

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth, and keepeth his garments" (Revelation
16:15).

This last verse is spoken after the sixth vial, at
the very end of the tribulation. Nowhere does the
Bible ever require that Christians will be raptured
before or during the tribulation, just as nowhere
does the Bible ever require that any of the seals
or trumpets of the tribulation are God's wrath, or
that any of the vials of God's wrath at the end of
the tribulation will be directed at Christians in any
way.
 
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A Brother In Christ

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"The day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6) and "the
day of Christ" (Philippians 2:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:2)
are the same as "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians
5:2; 2 Peter 3:10) and "the day of God" (2 Peter
3:12) and "the day of wrath" (Romans 2:5), for the
day of the Lord is "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ"
(1 Corinthians 1:8) and He is God (John 1:1,14) and
He will bring wrath: "He treadeth the winepress of
the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Revelation
19:15).
this is foolishness

here is why... day of the Lord operates after the rapture in 1 thes 5:2 the beginning of the Great TRib and ends in 2 peter 3:10 when the earth is burned up Kingdom of the heavens has has tares and wheat matt 13:25 which ARE defined in mt 13:38 not one imagination ...

the day of Christ is the Rapture... yet you disagree of pretrib ... each name of his is showing out a characterestic of that name

the day of God is when the trinity operates in total freedom because it has had defined roles by them selves after the 1000 yr reign ... this is where all believers are alive and glorified are operating in the kingdom of God Lk 17:20-21

the day of man we have been operating since Adam was brought to earth.. 1 cor 4:3 gotta look in greek

The dragon Satan and the Antichrist, the beast, will
not be exalted until the middle of the tribulation;
they will rule the world only during the latter half
of the tribulation: "And they worshipped the dragon
which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped
the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who
is able to make war with him? And there was given
unto him a mouth speaking great things and
blasphemies; and power was given unto him to
continue forty and two months" (Revelation 13:4-5).

These 42 months could begin after the seven seals
(Revelation 6) and the first six trumpets
(Revelation 8-9) have happened,
Satan has been ruling the world before this world 1st flood.. ezek 28:11-19, gen 1:2 isa 45:18, isa 66:1-2
.. Satan lost his rule.. then when Adam sinned took his place over the world and will have limited authority eph 2:2, dan 4:25-26 , job 1:6 , 1 peter 5:8 BUT the difference is that Satan wrath come forth when he notices his time is short .. james 2:17-18
so that the seven
seals and first six trumpets would happen during the
first half of the tribulation. Nothing requires that
any of the seals or trumpets are the wrath of God.
The plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath
(Revelation 16) could come out of the temple-
opening of the seventh trumpet after the 42 months
are over:

"And the seventh angel sounded ... And the temple of
God was opened in heaven" (Revelation 11:15,19).

"And, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the
testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels
came out of the temple, having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen, and having their
breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the
four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden
vials full of the wrath of God" (Revelation 15:5-7).

Satan and the Antichrist, the beast, will not be
able to do anything about God's wrath in these seven
vials:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the
first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the
men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them
which worshipped his image ... And the fifth angel
poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and
his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed
their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of
heaven because of their pains and their sores"
(Revelation 16:1-2,10-11).



"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together
unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by
letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at
hand" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Here "the day of Christ" is the same day as "the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him", which is after the
tribulation:

"Immediately after the tribulation ... they shall see
the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory. And he shall send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).
Since the day of God, Lord, Christ mean the same thing

WHY name the Holy Spirit
God the Father ,
God the Son

there all God we need to change God word and name them all the same since they do not mean what God says
Exactly the opposite. Paul is making clear that the
day of the second coming and rapture cannot happen
until sometime after an apostasy occurs in the
church and the beast, the Antichrist, is revealed
and sits in the temple:
look at the word apostasy in the verb form in greek in its usages in the bible it will define it departure ... apsoyasy is a transfiguration of the greek word not a translation

look it up! dare you
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away
[apostasia] first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth
himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple
of God, shewing himself that he is God"
(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
the reason for 1 thes 4:18, 1thes 5:1
The coming of Christ must destroy the Antichrist:
"Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his
mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
coming [parousia]" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Before the second coming, Christians will have to
patiently endure the reign of the Antichrist:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the
saints, and to overcome them" (Revelation 13:7).
these saints are differant .. 1 cor 15:23 3 different glorifications of like mind people why .. God chose to do so!
Jesus told us that we would see the abomination of
desolation:

"Ye therefore shall see the abomination of
desolation" (Matthew 24:15).

That's when the Antichrist will sit in a rebuilt
Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God.
1 cor 1:22 this is a sign to the believing Jews that God is not there and they start there fleeing from Jersalem
The wording of Revelation 6:16-17 is spoken only by
terrified unbelievers, who could be as mistaken about
the sixth seal being the wrath of God as Job was
mistaken about his sufferings being the wrath of God
instead of the wrath of Satan:

"Know now that God hath overthrown me ... He hath
also kindled his wrath against me" (Job 19:6,11).

The truth is that God had no wrath against righteous
Job. But God still let Job suffer:

"Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in
the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering
affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them
happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of
Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the
Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James
5:10-11).
difference of world's wrath, satan's wrath, God wrath

God promised that He would disipline us so that we will not be judged with this world .. 1 cor 11:32

we are under no quality of wrath... from God 1 thes 5:9

but under other wraths yes... this is not all world
That refers to wrath which is opposed to obtaining
salvation. It in no way means that those who have
obtained salvation can't go through the coming
tribulation, for the Bible refers to Christians on
the earth throughout the tribulation:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9).
talking to Jews .. world dwellers .. matt 2:2

we are the bride of Christ ..citizen of the heavens we are Part of Christ why would he bloody his bride before showing the Father
"And it was said unto them, that they should rest yet
for a little season, until their fellowservants also
and their brethren, that should be killed as they
were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:11).

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the
throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white
robes ... These are they which came out of great
tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made
them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation
7:9,14).

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went
to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep
the commandments of God, and have the testimony of
Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17).

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"
(Revelation 13:10).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

"Them that had gotten the victory over the beast"
(Revelation 15:2).

"Them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
(Revelation 20:4).

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth, and keepeth his garments" (Revelation
16:15).

This last verse is spoken after the sixth vial, at
the very end of the tribulation. Nowhere does the
Bible ever require that Christians will be raptured
before or during the tribulation, just as nowhere
does the Bible ever require that any of the seals
or trumpets of the tribulation are God's wrath, or
that any of the vials of God's wrath at the end of
the tribulation will be directed at Christians in any
way.


this offects your daily life in following Christ ...
2 peter 3:18... not law gal 2:21
 
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A Brother In Christ

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The wording of Revelation 6:16-17 is spoken only by
terrified unbelievers, who could be as mistaken about
the sixth seal being the wrath of God as Job was
mistaken about his sufferings being the wrath of God
instead of the wrath of Satan:

God allowed the suffering ... but did not cause it job 1:6
1 cor 10:13

Since the Spirit has given John a vision for revelations.

I believe that the spirit means what He says to John ...

The Unbeliever know that during this time God is sending down his wrath...yet it will get much worst
 
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A Brother In Christ

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Hi A Brother In Christ
You are the only one ive ever heard claim that the Day of the Lord begins right after the rapture as does the trib period. Are there others who believe as you do or did you come up with this on your own?

You must not believe in the Rapture... too bad

hopefully you believe the right gospel..

1thes 4:13-18 rapture
1 thes 5:1-8 Day of the Lord and like a thief....

its called scripture

most people can not call it accurately.... what scripture calls it
 
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Well i finally figured out your problem A Brother In Christ. You believe theres a rapture. Your gonna believe it no matter what scripture says. You also see in your so called rapture scriptures, that the very same scriptures are speaking of the Day of the Lord. So if your to believe your rapture is real you must believe its happens on the Day of the Lord.
 
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A Brother In Christ

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You must not believe in the Rapture... too bad

hopefully you believe the right gospel..

1thes 4:13-18 rapture
1 thes 5:1-8 Day of the Lord and like a thief....

its called scripture

most people can not call it accurately.... what scripture calls it

Well i finally figured out your problem A Brother In Christ. You believe theres a rapture. Your gonna believe it no matter what scripture says. You also see in your so called rapture scriptures, that the very same scriptures are speaking of the Day of the Lord. So if your to believe your rapture is real you must believe its happens on the Day of the Lord.

No .... the day of Christ= rapture

after the day of Christ begins the day of the Lord

patience ... patience

I have shown we are not under any wrath by scripture in past posts

I have shown the different days...

I will now show you the difference of NT saints hope vs OT saints hope of a glorified body
#1
OT saint promise... Dan 12:2 , 11-13 : 75 days after the second coming is when they get glorified which is after the Beast coming to power after the tribulation among other things that must happen .. matt 24

NT saints promise ... at any moment we will be changed into are glorified bodies ... major difference
#2

OT saints receive Eternal life at the 2nd coming ..dan 12:2

NT saint have eternal life right now... 1 jn 5:11-13

but you do not study these points and dismiss me ... lack of summitting eph 5:21.... not blindly but study scripture ... look at the differences
 
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WailingWall

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I have shown we are not under any wrath by scripture in past posts

You got that part right Brother.

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.

PROVERBS 3 [22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. [23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Show no fear when Jesus returns to get rid of the bad guys.

PSALM 9 [5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen, THOU HAST DESTROYED THE WICKED, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. [6] O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. [7] But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. [8] And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. [9] THE LORD ALSO WILL BE A REFUGE FOR THE OPPRESSED, A REFUGE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE. [10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

PSALM 12 [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, NOW WILL I ARISE, saith the Lord; I WILL SET HIM IN SAFETY from him that puffeth at him.

I kinda knew all along that Jesus could protect His people in times of trouble even before I found these scriptures. We are not apointed to wrath and now we know why. A little game of hide and seek the Lord.

PROVERBS 1 [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; [27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. [28] THEN SHALL THEY CALL UPON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THEY SHALL SEEK ME EARLY, BUT THEY SHALL NOT FIND ME: [29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: [30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. [31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. [32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. [33] BUT WHOSO HEARKENETH UNTO ME SHALL DWELL SAFELY, AND SHALL BE QUIET FROM FEAR OF EVIL.

They did not choose the “fear of the Lord”. Hmm…..Anyone know what that means? THE FEAR OF THE LORD? Does it have anything to do with Gods 10 commandments?

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yup. Be patient. The bad guys shall be cut off. No need to put your hope in a rapture just because your afraid. Just wait upon the Lord, and we shall inherit the earth.
 
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WailingWall

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No .... the day of Christ= rapture
after the day of Christ begins the day of the Lord
patience ... patience

See..ya shouldnt say things out the side of your mouth. You will be caught.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Theres just not enough time for you pre-midders.

You know
Im just gonna guess this will be skipped over. I will recieve no answer. Youll go on posting your words and never acknowledge these scriptures
 
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I will now show you the difference of NT saints hope vs OT saints hope of a glorified body

I cant wait......

So far youve been wrong accorrding to scripture each and every time. But this is america. Everyone can have his own opinion, even if its wrong.
 
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See..ya shouldnt say things out the side of your mouth. You will be caught.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Theres just not enough time for you pre-midders.

Can ya see now Ole Brother? Are you still blind?

You know
Im just gonna guess this will be skipped over. I will recieve no answer. Youll go on and post various scriptures... no i take that back! Youve yet to post a scripture. You point to them but dont post them. There will be a long line of them, yet none posted. The shame be on ya!


in 1 thes 5 underline us blue and them red then state who is crying and who is at a wedding
 
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A Brother In Christ

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No .... the day of Christ= rapture

after the day of Christ begins the day of the Lord

patience ... patience

I have shown we are not under any wrath by scripture in past posts

I have shown the different days...

I will now show you the difference of NT saints hope vs OT saints hope of a glorified body
#1
OT saint promise... Dan 12:2 , 11-13 : 75 days after the second coming is when they get glorified which is after the Beast coming to power after the tribulation among other things that must happen .. matt 24

NT saints promise ... at any moment we will be changed into are glorified bodies ... major difference
#2

OT saints receive Eternal life at the 2nd coming ..dan 12:2

NT saint have eternal life right now... 1 jn 5:11-13

but you do not study these points and dismiss me ... lack of summitting eph 5:21.... not blindly but study scripture ... look at the differences

I cant wait......to let scripture again, prove you exactly what you are

Well ole boy, whats the difference

So far youve been wrong accorrding to scripture each and every time. But this is america. Everyone can have his own opinion, even if its wrong.

see that you did not quote the verses you just want to ignore them like the other verses
 
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Royal city, washington
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Let me guess. You believe the "children of Israel" are the jews? Hee:) Heee.

Where do you get your belief system? JVI

Hee heee hee

No all saved Jews during the Law and tribulational saints will inherit the earth

God gives warning to people like you who try to take there promises .. Rev 2:9, 3:9 repent rev 3:13
 
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