John Hagee goes too far

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Notrash

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Discussed in GT. Briefly first coming- suffering savior
2nd coming- annointed King
Many rejected him because they expected him to get rid of Roman occupation and establish peace.
How much different is this from mid acts dispensationalism or even futurist dispensationalism. Both deny that Jesus accomplished all but remaking the earth in his incarnation/ministry/death/resurrection/ascension/descension in the Holy Spirit.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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How much different is this from mid acts dispensationalism or even futurist dispensationalism. Both deny that Jesus accomplished all but remaking the earth in his incarnation/ministry/death/resurrection/ascension/descension in the Holy Spirit.

I honestly don't think any dispensationalist agrees with the recent statements of John Hagee that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Dispensationalists believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Period. Dispensationalists believe Messiah and Christ are synonymous terms. Sp its unwarranted to separate the terms as Hagee has done.


LDG
 
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Notrash

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I honestly don't think any dispensationalist agrees with the recent statements of John Hagee that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Dispensationalists believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Period. Dispensationalists believe Messiah and Christ are synonymous terms. Sp its unwarranted to separate the terms as Hagee has done.
LDG

Of course they wouldnt' in verbatum deny Jesus as Messiah. But in what the accomplishments of the Messiah was intended to do and be: establish and continue Davidic Kingdom; Is 9:6,7, be the seed of Abraham, establish the new covenant discussed in the OT and confirmed as established in Hebrews and by Crhist, some dispensational groups and perhaps many will and do postpone these to another Christ for the Jews, thus in actuallity and through implication, they infer that Jesus of 2000 yrs ago was not the Messiah to the jews.
 
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Biblewriter

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Of course they wouldnt' in verbatum deny Jesus as Messiah. But in what the accomplishments of the Messiah was intended to do and be: establish and continue Davidic Kingdom; Is 9:6,7, be the seed of Abraham, establish the new covenant discussed in the OT and confirmed as established in Hebrews and by Crhist, some dispensational groups and perhaps many will and do postpone these to another Christ for the Jews, thus in actuallity and through implication, they infer that Jesus of 2000 yrs ago was not the Messiah to the jews.

You know perfectly well that the future Messiah of standard dispensational doctrine is the same Jesus as the one that came 2000 years ago.

[staff edit]
 
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Notrash

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You know perfectly well that the future Messiah of standard dispensational doctrine is the same Jesus as the one that came 2000 years ago.

You have of late ceased to be Not Rash and have simply been Rash.

Then explain the differences between what Haggee teaches and dispensational teachings other than the verbal allegience to the word Messiah. Jen believes that we are "commanded" to bless Israel. Hagee teaches that. Is that dispensational??
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Then explain the differences between what Haggee teaches and dispensational teachings other than the verbal allegience to the word Messiah.

Paul said that the gospel goes out to both the Jews and the Gentiles. And both Jewish and Gentile believers say Jesus is the Christ, the foretold Messiah. The church in this present age consists of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Unbelieving Jews - in dispensationalism - are just as lost as unbelieving Gentiles.

Jesus, in His first advent, came to save the world and did not judge it. In Jesus' second advent, He comes to judge the world. Both advents are at the core of Messianic identity - and that core involves salvation and judgment.

Around the time of Jesus' return, the nation of Israel will turn to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That doesn't mean every Jew will believe. That also doesn't mean Jesus becomes the Messiah. Jesus was already the Messiah. It just means that the Jews recognize Jesus is the Messiah.

Similarly, dispensationalists believe that Jesus will reign on earth, as king. Does that mean Jesus is not presently king? No. Dispensationalists say Jesus is presently our king. Dispensationalists are also quick to point out that He will return to reign as a king: the Messiah is both king and priest (Psalm 110).

Jen believes that we are "commanded" to bless Israel. Hagee teaches that. Is that dispensational??

Here is a clue to how dispensationalists think:
I would ask, where exactly is the Scripture basis for saying we are "commanded" to bless Israel? What does it really mean to "bless" Israel? What is meant by the term "Israel" - the modern nation or the ethnic nation? In other words: gimme Scripture and lets work out the implications...

To answer your question - assuming Israel is the modern state of Israel - the answer is no. Certainly not all dispensationalists believe that the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 was prophesied in Scripture. For dispensationalists, the next big event on God's calendar has always been the rapture. We emphasize immniency. To say that 1948 was foretold in Scripture is to place these events before the rapture.

And to say we must unequivocally support everything the modern state of Israel does is going too far. Not even all Israelis or all Jews support everything that the state of Israel does. A Christian should always support justice and oppose injustice.

LDG
 
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Notrash

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Paul said that the gospel goes out to both the Jews and the Gentiles. And both Jewish and Gentile believers say Jesus is the Christ, the foretold Messiah. The church in this present age consists of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Unbelieving Jews - in dispensationalism - are just as lost as unbelieving Gentiles.

Jesus, in His first advent, came to save the world and did not judge it. In Jesus' second advent, He comes to judge the world. Both advents are at the core of Messianic identity - and that core involves salvation and judgment.

Around the time of Jesus' return, the nation of Israel will turn to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That doesn't mean every Jew will believe. That also doesn't mean Jesus becomes the Messiah. Jesus was already the Messiah. It just means that the Jews recognize Jesus is the Messiah.

Similarly, dispensationalists believe that Jesus will reign on earth, as king. Does that mean Jesus is not presently king? No. Dispensationalists say Jesus is presently our king. Dispensationalists are also quick to point out that He will return to reign as a king: the Messiah is both king and priest (Psalm 110).



Here is a clue to how dispensationalists think:
I would ask, where exactly is the Scripture basis for saying we are "commanded" to bless Israel? What does it really mean to "bless" Israel? What is meant by the term "Israel" - the modern nation or the ethnic nation? In other words: gimme Scripture and lets work out the implications...

To answer your question - assuming Israel is the modern state of Israel - the answer is no. Certainly not all dispensationalists believe that the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 was prophesied in Scripture. For dispensationalists, the next big event on God's calendar has always been the rapture. We emphasize immniency. To say that 1948 was foretold in Scripture is to place these events before the rapture.

And to say we must unequivocally support everything the modern state of Israel does is going too far. Not even all Israelis or all Jews support everything that the state of Israel does. A Christian should always support justice and oppose injustice.

LDG

Thanks for the reply. Although I disagree with a future literal throne of Christ on the earth for the Jewish Nation that would be any different from this present kingdom of God/heaven.

The only point I'd wish to have claified would be:
Jesus, in His first advent, came to save the world and did not judge it. In Jesus' second advent, He comes to judge the world. Both advents are at the core of Messianic identity - and that core involves salvation and judgment.
Jhn 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Jhn 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Isaiah 9:6,7;
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

When did "henceforth" begin?
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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The only point I'd wish to have claified would be:

Jhn 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Compare with these verses:
John 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

The purpose for Jesus' first advent was salvation. A result of Jesus' first advent was that some would reject this salvation, thereby bringing (future) judgment upon themselves. Remember Jesus pronouncing the woes upon the cities? They brought judgment upon themselves for rejecting Jesus. Their future judgment was announced, a judgment which will be meted out later.

Jhn 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Jesus said that, and the very next verse:
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Jesus' crucifixion is the basis for both salvation and judgment for the entire world. Those who crucified Jesus rejected Him - and those who refuse to believe in Him will be condemned. The "now" is the time for salvation, while the "future day" will be the time for worldwide judgment. See this verse:

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Of course the Man whom God appointed to judge the world is none other than Jesus Christ.

John 16:
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

In light of Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection and glorification, Satan's judgment is certain. But Satan still prowls around like a lion (1 Pet 5:8). The Holy Spirit - like Jesus did in His first advent - brings "light" that uncovers those in the "darkness." He convicts people of their sins, of their lack of righteousness, and of the impending coming judgment.


Isaiah 9:6,7;
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

When did "henceforth" begin?

"Henceforth" is intimately connected with the government, peace, throne of David and the Davidic kingdom...

Psalm 110 provides some insight into the timing aspects:
Psalm 110:1-6 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies.

So there is a sense in which Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies. Also:

3 Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy majesty, from the womb of the dawn you will receive the dew of your youth. 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." 5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath. 6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

There is also a final battle, a day of wrath.

We premillennialists say that there will be a Messianic government and peace on earth for a millennium. Of course, amils and postmils say something different. ;)


LDG
 
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Notrash

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John 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

This is associated with Romans 3:23, for all have sinned... Gal 3:22 and Romans 11:32. These would be referring to the fact that in Adam, the world in sin is already condemned (john 3:18) Thus, Jesus came to save the condemned world. Judgment has now been passed upon the world and it is a judgment based on faith and life in Christ.
Jesus' crucifixion is the basis for both salvation and judgment for the entire world. Those who crucified Jesus rejected Him - and those who refuse to believe in Him will be condemned. The "now" is the time for salvation, while the "future day" will be the time for worldwide judgment.
With this we are mostly in agreement. However as referincing John3:18, 3:36, all are condemed in Adam, those who believe recieve life. Judgement is also a state that a untruster in Christ lives in weather they realize or not. (there is lots of commentary about preordained, election/predestination/etc that we'll not enter into) Faith comes by hearing and Hearing the word of God/Christ. In a sense the 'white throne judgement" is a continually operating present tense judgement in addition to a one time future final aspect.
Psalm 110 provides some insight into the timing aspects:
Psalm 110:1-6 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies.
Again, observing this from a non-futurist view, Who were the lords literal enemies? Were they not the Pharisees of Judaism in the first century. Making his enemies his footstool has a direct image of placing ones foot to rest on a persons neck after they are killed in battle. This seems to have happened once in 70 AD as Jesus prophesied and warned about as the vengence and judgement that will come upon "this generation". Vipers, who has warned you to flee the coming wrath.? John the baptist was refering to those pharisees and scribes that he was seeing coming towards him as he was baptizing.

That is not to disagree that there will not be another or further 'day of the Lord" judgment days or day. It's possible (as I'm considering) that the tribulation/wrath of 60-75 AD was the last type of national Israel that will be repeated at the last time with judgement of fire before the remaking of the heavens/earth. But I'm not dogmatic on this or teaching it.

Now on when the 'kingdom began' and henceforth, It seems to me that Acts 2 indicates it's beginnings at Pentecost if not before. The Henceforth of Isaiah 9:7 would be thus from Pentecost onward.
 
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justsurfing

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Wow. I guess then Hagee is telling people to look for the coming of the Messiah...

because Hagee doesn't believe Jesus was Messiah.

Is he also advising people to take the number 666 when the "real" Messiah comes?

Thanks for sharing this post. I had no idea Hagee had gone this far... but I wasn't comfortable anyway.
 
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Terral

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Hi Haletownhill:

Hale >> John Hagee goes too far So Jesus was not the Messiah? I always thought JH harped a little heavy on Israel, but this takes the cake:
While I disagree with the Dispy’s over many things, and do not know much about John Hagee, Jesus Christ warned His disciples “that they should tell NO ONE that He was the Christ.” Matthew 16:20. Your jolly ole pot-bellied Bible commentator is right that "Jesus Christ did not come to the earth to be the Messiah." God raised Christ from the dead. Right? Of course. Okay then. So what stopped Him from ruling the earth as the Messiah? :0) Once Christ rose from the dead, then who on this earth would try to crucifying Him again in vain? Did God waste a golden opportunity to sit His Only Begotten Son on an earthly throne 2000 years ago? No! That was never the plan from the beginning, which is Hagee’s point in his attempt at Defending Israel. The problem with his theory is that Christ and Barabbas were held up by Pilate and the people said to “Crucify Him” (Matthew 27:22-25) over and over again and "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25). Scripture refers to Israel’s ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11) saying that God is now making them jealous (Romans 10:19, 11:11) in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:21. If God’s Word says Israel became the transgressor by stumbling over Christ (Romans 9:30-32, 11:11), then Hagee is misusing Scripture for his own self-serving motives. Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed some 40 years after Christ was crucified and not over ‘accepting’ Jesus Christ as the Messiah. :0) What did Peter say?

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Acts 2:36-37.
If Peter, by the Holy Spirit, is saying “this Jesus WHOM YOU CRUCIFIED,” then ‘all the house of Israel’ is GUILTY AS CHARGED. Period. Even these believers, standing with Peter at Pentecost, were ‘pierced to the heart,’ so what about the Jews that never had any intention of repenting, feeling badly, or anything else? The truth of this matter is that Christ came to preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1) knowing full well that, like John the Baptist, “The Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Matthew 17:12. One of the biggest MYTHS of all is that Jesus Christ is returning to this earth to set up a temporary 1000 Year Kingdom, when your Bible makes that claim NO PLACE at all. Christ told Pilate that His Kingdom is not of this world or even of this realm (John 18:36). Jesus Christ is the Lord God of the Old Testament who formed His “son of God” (Adam = Luke 3:38) to sit upon an earthly throne as “HIS FOOTSTOOL.” Many of you know Jesus Christ is the Lord (Romans 10:9), but you FAIL (miserably BTW) to realize Heaven Is His Throne! Do you really know the Lord?? Well? What does Scripture say?

“Thus says the Lord (Jesus is Lord!), "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?” Isaiah 66:1.
If “Heaven is MY THRONE,” then someone explain why most every Dispy on earth wants to bring Him down to sit on an earthly throne like a mere man?? What does Scripture say?

“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a High Priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.” Hebrews 8:1-2.
How many ways do we need to explain the ‘TRUE TABERNACLE’ in HEAVEN has an ‘earthly counterpart’ that is made by mere men?? Scripture is CLEAR that the “Tabernacle OF DAVID” (Acts 15:16-18) will be restored and rebuilt, which is an earthly duplicate of the “true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.” Say this to yourself a hundred times, or until the truth begins to find a home within your being:

"Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matthew 6:10.
There is “His Heavenly Kingdom” (2Timothy 4:18) and the kingdom on earth AS IT IS in heaven where the ‘earthly Messiah’ sits on an ‘earthly’ throne AND Jesus Christ is NOT the ‘earthly Messiah.’ :0) Scripture tells you the name of the earthly Messiah again and again and again and again, but many refuse to believe. Whose tabernacle is going to be restored from the quote above (Acts 15:16-18)? That’s right! The “Tabernacle of David” and 'after these things' (in blue) of today. Jesus Christ is the Lord God speaking:

"Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; HE WILL FEED THEM HIMSELF and be their shepherd. And I, the Lord (Jesus is Lord!), will be their God [Hebrews 1:8], and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord have spoken. "I will make a covenant of peace [Hebrews 8:8] with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.” Ezekiel 34:23-25.
Jesus Christ is the Lord God of the OT saying loud and clear that "My servant DAVID will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd," but many are simply unwilling to believe Him. NT Scripture says,

“Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!" Mark 11:10.
Okay. So someone please explain why everyone wants to replace “David” in all these verses with “Christ,” when He is the Lord God making the prophesies about “My servant David”??? Jeremiah and Hosea say,

'But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.” Jeremiah 30:9.

“Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness in the last days.” Hosea 3:5.
If Jesus Christ is the Lord their God (Hebrews 1:8), and David their king is mentioned in the same verse (time and time again), then why do people have such a difficult time realizing David is the ‘earthly Messiah’ in the Kingdom of God on earth AS IT IS in heaven???? Christ prophesied to His three closest witnesses/disciples (Peter, John and James) answering their question:

“And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things . . .”. Matthew 17:10-11.
However, since John the Baptist (Elijah) already came once, then people stumble all over themselves adding NOT to Christ’s words above, as if He says, “Elijah is NOT coming and will NOT restore all things.” The fact is that Jesus Christ was pointing to John the Baptist as the ‘earthly Messiah’ from the very beginning, but people even today do NOT recognize him as the man sent from God (John 1:6) that is “MORE than a prophet” (Matt. 11:9). If John the Baptist is Elijah (Matt. 11:14) AND is “MORE than a prophet,” then who is John the Baptist? :0) Christ says he belongs in kings palaces (Matt. 11:8) and:

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! . . .

"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” Matthew 11:12a+13.
What does it mean that among those born of women there is NOT arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist? Let that simple fact mill around in your noggin for a pair of seconds, then realize ALL the prophets and the Law prophesied until John, because he is the earthly Messiah never recognized by Israel or anyone else; and Jesus Christ is the “Heavenly Messiah” already in heaven and preparing to take His seat even as we speak! People want to force Jesus Christ into becoming the “prophet” of Acts 3:19-26 coming to restore all things (Acts 3:21), but that is very much impossible; because that prophet is raised from among the brethren. Everyone here should realize Christ returns on the clouds (Matt. 24:30-31) exactly like He departed in Acts 1:9-11. The ONLY prophet in Scripture connected to the restoration of all things is Elijah and he is the earthly Messiah David that was John the Baptist. John the Baptist denied being Elijah (John 1:21), because he is MORE than just a prophet; because he is the original ‘son of God’ the Lord God (Christ) formed from the dust of the ground – our father Adam. Joshua (deliverer), David (king), Elijah (prophet), John the Baptist (priest) and the coming prophet (Acts 3:23) returning to restore all things are all ‘skins’ (Genesis 3:21) for the earthly Messiah (2Kings 1:8, Mark 1:6) coming to set up the Kingdom of God on earth AS IT IS in heaven. This is the only answer that resolves all the questions without creating a single contradiction in God’s Living Word,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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Sunrise78

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I had heard that John Hagee does not believe that Jews need to accept Jesus as their Messiah/Savior in order to be saved. This seems to confirm that, in my view ... it seems like he is falling all over himself to somehow say that the Jews in general did not reject Jesus. This seems to be contradicted by Paul in Romans 9-11. Why would Paul "have great sorrow and unceasing anguish" in his heart and wish himself "cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of [his] brothers" if all of them were going to be saved apart from Christ?
 
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Terral

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Hi Sunrise:

While I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of John Hagee’s theology, please allow me to shed some light on things from your comments:

Sunrise >> I had heard that John Hagee does not believe that Jews need to accept Jesus as their Messiah/Savior in order to be saved.
First of all, heaven is filled to the gills with hosts that are not members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27). Many professing Christians are under the false notion that everyone must become part of the “Body of Christ” or suffer eternal damnation in a fiery hell, when that is not the case at all. Those of us “seated with Him in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6) are called for a special purpose, which includes judging the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3). We represent the judges and rulers over a MYRIAD of heavenly hosts, “because we are the members of Christ’s body” (Eph. 5:30). Paul writes,

“Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.” Galatians 6:9-10.
There are MANY good people going to heaven, but only those called by our gospel become part of the “household of the faith.” Let’s try to broaden our understanding of the many households being addressed by Paul in his Epistles to the Gentiles, so we can gain a better perspective on just how special our “Body of Christ” is by comparison. Paul is addressing the unsaved to end Romans 1 and start Romans 2, saying,

“But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 'but' to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.” Romans 2:3-8.
God is going to render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in ‘doing good’ seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambition and ‘do not’ obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.” However, shall God judge the members of Christ’s body this way? :0) No! We appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive rewards over whether our ‘works’ are good or bad (2Cor. 5:10), because ‘we’ (body of Christ) have been sealed in Christ for the day of redemption. We (body of Christ) are dealt with ‘a sons,’ but the unsaved are judged (Rev. 20:11-15) using a very different yardstick. MANY will obtain eternal life ‘in heaven’ as a mere citizen, but NONE of them will join us IN Christ Jesus by God’s grace through faith apart from works. These citizens of heaven will look up at Christ’s throne and see us “IN Christ” to return back to their much more regular lives in the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul continues,

“There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, ‘and’ all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, BUT the doers of the Law WILL BE justified.” Romans 2:9-13.
Hold on one minute! :0) Did Paul just say the doers of the Law will be justified??? How does this compare with his teachings to the members of Christ’s body?

“Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:19-20.
Paul just told unbelievers that the doers of the Law will be justified, then he turns right around and tells ‘us’ (body of Christ) “by the works of the Law NO FLESH will be justified in His sight.” Did Paul just contradict Paul? No. Paul has switched ‘audiences’ from the unsaved Jew and Gentile (doers of the Law will be justified) and the members of Christ’s body (doers of the law WILL NOT be justified) and he is teaching two very different things. These Jews and Gentiles being ‘good’ and being ‘justified’ before God will obtain eternal life IN HEAVEN, but NOT as the member of Christ’s body. They have an abode somewhere in the MASSIVE Heavenly Landscape within the Kingdom of God, but NOT within the “Body of Christ” where Christ is the Head. Nobody will keep Mosaic Law to obtain eternal life IN Christ Jesus, which gives us a part in the “First Resurrection” (diagram) where ‘we’ rule with Christ for the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Those justified by good works and keeping Mosaic Law will have a part in the “Second Resurrection” (Rev. 20:11-15) where the lake of fire (second death) ‘will’ continue to have power over them.

Open the above diagram and note the MANY different dispensations under God, which includes the ‘early rains’ (James 5:7) Bride (John 3:29) represented by Peter, John, James, Eunuch and Cornelius “at His Right Hand” the “Kingdom of Priests” (Rev. 1:6, 5:10), but ‘we’ (Body of Christ) are “IN The Lamb” in the ‘center of the throne.’ The Elect (Matt. 24:30-31) are mere citizens of Heaven saved via the ‘Eternal Gospel’ (Rev. 14:6) called to God at the very END of the Age. Those heavenly hosts are joined by those being justified as “doers of the Law” (Rom. 2:13) and “everyone who does good” (Rom. 2:10) having NOTHING to do with those of us “IN Christ Jesus” called to be the judges and rulers over the entire “Kingdom of Heaven” realm. This leads us to Israel that is currently blind (Romans 11:25) to these things, because God has called them to become part of SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY. :0) Paul throws you a big fat bone explaining this point, saying,

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The deliverer (Elijah) will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is My Covenant WITH THEM (Mal. 4:5-6 = the prophet of Acts 3:19-26), when I take away their sins.” From the standpoint of the gospel (gathering the BODY of Christ) they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:25-29.
How can you blame Israel for being ‘blind’ to ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16), when God has placed the veil over their eyes in the first place? :0) God is being VERY SELECTIVE in calling certain people to become members of “His BODY” Church (Col. 1:24), by sending the preacher (Rom. 10:14) carrying ‘our gospel’ (2Thes. 2:13-14). MANY Jews will have a part in the “Second Resurrection” (Rev. 20:11-15) described in Ezekiel 37:11-12* with some obtaining a ‘heavenly’ position, as a doer of the Law, and some obtaining an ‘earthly’ position to be led into the “Land of Israel*” in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. My best guess is that Hagee realizes the truth that God has MANY dispensations with MANY heavenly and earthly hosts returning to Him via MANY different paths, even if all of those roads find their way “IN Christ Jesus” were ‘we’ (body of Christ) have been seated (Eph. 2:6) already by obeying Paul’s gospel. You cannot hold any grievance against any Kingdom Jew, because God has called him to become part of another dispensation. God called Peter, John and James to become ‘sons of the bridal chamber’ (Mark 2:19) serving the Kingdom Bride (Church #1) through the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1), just like He called some of you to become the members of “Christ’s BODY” (Church #2) through Paul’s Word of the Cross (Gospel #2) gospel message, but these callings are based upon God’s gracious choice (Romans 11:5) and His ‘purpose for the ages*’ (Eph. 3:8-11*).

[Continued]
 
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Terral

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Sunrise >> This seems to confirm that, in my view ... it seems like he is falling all over himself to somehow say that the Jews in general did not reject Jesus.
Israel most definitely stumbled over Christ (Rom. 9:30-32) marked by Scripture’s reference to their “transgression” (Romans 11:7-11). Hagee needs to belly up to Matthew 27:22-25 again . . .

Sunrise >> This seems to be contradicted by Paul in Romans 9-11. Why would Paul "have great sorrow and unceasing anguish" in his heart and wish himself "cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of [his] brothers" if all of them were going to be saved apart from Christ?
Paul knew the VAST differences between being chosen for the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) and the Mystery Body of Christ (Church #2) knowing full well that God will continue making Israel “Jealous” (Deut. 32:21, Romans 10:19, 11:11) for all the ages to come. Those of us found “seated with Him in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6) are light years ahead of everyone else coming to join us by works, works and more works (James 2:20-24 = James addressing Kingdom 'bride'), as these seemingly unlucky heavenly hosts will bear a ‘water mark’ on their heavenly ephod (diagram) to the end of time itself (and beyond).

Israel today is far too blind to realize they are even supposed to be jealous, but all of that will become crystal clear when washing and washing and washing their heavenly garments for obtaining membership “IN Christ Jesus” through the covenant of marriage (Rev. 19:5-10) that ends every age. By the time Israel is resurrected (Eze. 37:11-12) to inherit low positions in the earthly and heavenly kingdoms, those of us “IN Christ Jesus” today will have already been earning superior positions (diagram) and rewards from “IN” the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ for a thousand years. :0) The Jews inheriting a place in the “Land of Israel” will live very long lives on earth serving David (Eze. 37:24-28 = diagram), before ever ascending up Jacob’s Ladder (Gen. 28:12 = restored with 'all things') to serve ‘before the throne’ for another very long time, before earning the right to join us (body of Christ) IN Christ Jesus. Your heavenly ephod will become filled with all your heavenly rewards (1Cor 3:12-14) for many ages to come, before these members of Israel ever even begin serving the Lamb in heaven. Paul would rather see his fellow kinsmen “IN” Christ Jesus via obedience to our gospel, than having to see them work and work and work for things given to us for free. :0)

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral
 
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Brennin

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So Jesus was not the Messiah?

I always thought JH harped a little heavy on Israel, but this takes the cake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8khCJTDD44

Who is buttering this guy's bread?
Jesus was the Messiah, of course, but not the one the Jews of his day were looking for (excepting the Jews who followed him, naturally). They expected a military Messiah and they got one in Bar Kokhba, with disastrous results.

Anyway, I do not care for Hagee. I think he is intoxicated with Israel.
 
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Jadis40

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I've always questioned Hagee's eschatology. This just confirms that feeling in the back of my mind that there was something wrong. I find myself disagreeing with Hagee more than I actually agree with him. Jack Van Impe is another.
 
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