What about women?

SunnyLin

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x]~ sorry to mods if they dont like this, cause i've asked this question in 2 other forums but i've really been looking for more views on the subject, especially professional ones!

Last summer, while i was away and thinking out loud to God about what i wanted to do in my life, i suddenly had this feeling to become or at least look into becoming a youth pastor. i knew there were opinions about women in ministry so ever since, i've been looking it up.

thanks to paulewag in the youth forum, i've run across 1 Timothy 2:9-15 where paul speaks about women in ministry... i'm not too excited abotu what i found:

"1 Timothy 2:9-15:
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For adam was formed first, not eve. And adam was not deceived; it was the woman who deceived and became a sinner. But womn will be saved through childbearing- if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety"

what does this mean?
 

Gerry

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There are many positions of leadership open to women in the Church. Pastor is not one of them. The only thing the above Scripture says is that a woman is not permitted to have authority over a man in a spiritual sense.
A pastor has authority over a congregation, therefore if there is a man present a woman cannot be a pastor.

Also in Chapter 3 you will read the qualifications for a pastor. One is that he must be the HUSBAND of one wife. Kinda impossible for a woman.

There are many many positions open to women. Women may teach other women and indeed should. Women can witness and testify, and participate in visition programs, and in worship activities in the church, such as singing, etc. Women can even "Preach" in women's conferences, for example. But women may not be a pastor.
 
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SunnyLin

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so what paul means by teach or to have authority over men, means just that, not to teach men? ah.. :) that makes me feel a lot better. thanks. i've also heard that women can teach children... would youth count? as in teens? who does the bible consider to be a "man", what age does a male have to be to be a man?
 
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Gerry

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Ah! You ask a VERY good question. At what age does a male become a man. I think this would be considered by all I know of to be the "age of accountability"! I think this is like puberty and menustration; this varies from person to person. But most religions and denominations arbitrarily pick the age of 12 or 13. However this cannot be considered a hard rule. I believe this can happen as early as 5 or 6 in some cases.

This I think is where wisdom comes into play and I feel very sure the Holy Spirit will guide one in this matter.

Women play a VITAL spiritual role in both the family and the church. There are ages for girls, especially, that absolutely requires the teaching of a woman. A man simply cannot relate to them as another woman can. And as far as counseling girls, I believe a woman is generally more qualified than a man for the most part.

I will give you my opinion of how I interpret the Biblical position on a Youth Minister. I believe that here again, women play a vital role, more in the line of "guidance" than necessarily Teaching.

I think a woman should serve in the capacity as assistant to the Youth Pastor. She should take her direction from the male lead. That is not to say the male should be a Dictator in the circumstances, but simply a "spiritual leader". Most recently I have seen this done highly successfully where a male had two female assistants. This worked beautifully.
 
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I think that it is wonderful that you want to pursue ministry!!  Gerry has some really great insight! :clap:

FYI--in my church alone we have an associate pastor and a youth leader who are both women.  Also, the education director and many other leadership roles are held by women.  All but one of our Sunday School teachers are also women. 

My belief is this:  Someone has to lead these lambs to God and does it matter what gender, race, color? Truly?

God will lead you where He wants you and in the capacity that he wants you in.

Take care and God Bless! :wave:
 
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SunnyLin

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thanks! i think now i'm completely willing to trust that God will lead me to do as he wants. If God doesn't want me to do something, he wouldnt tell me to do it right? :) i think the scarcity of female leaders and the fear of being deceived by satan are the things that are blocking my path right now. thanks so much for your spupport!
 
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endure

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sunnylin
maybe i can offer you some insight into this.

1 tim 2.9-15

in verse 9
it is the extravaganse of ornaments and costly garments that paul rebukes. the passage is not condemning any one style, ornament, or garment, but demanding moderation in dress, and behavoir in general as women proffessing godliness. when either man or woman live primarily for outword show it is wrong. the O.T. references to people wereing jewelry and such is evidence that God generally has no problem with wearing gold, or dressing up, in themselves.

in verse 11 it says for women to learn in silence with all subjection.
and verse 12 says he didnt allow a woman to teach nor dictate authority over men.

1 cor 14.34-35
says that the women were to keep silence in the churches, and werent allowed to speak. and if they were to learn anything, they had to wait untill they were at home and ask their husbands.

i think understanding of this can be found by realising that
it was a custom of the day in that time, for men to ask questions and to even interrupt the speaker if he did not understand. and this right was not given to women.
this is the meaning of women must keep silence in the church.
it says they must LEARN IN SILENCE....
not that they cannot pray outloud,  preach, prophecy, or testify.

the problem was that they did not allow women to interrupt the flow of service, as they allowed men to do. pauls reason for this was the woman being the one that was deceived by satan.
it was much the culture of the day, not that it was simply the way of god.
paul taught more than one thing based on the culture of the day.
like women not cutting their hair, and the beleif that hair is a womans glory and that a man must not have long hair, and a woman is shamed if it is cut.
he said nature taught this, but if anyone had a problem with it in light of new testament freedom that the church had no such law.

women were allowed to prophecy and pray in the church, becuase we have more than on incident of them doing so.
(1 cor 11.5,13 acts 2.16-21, 21.9 joel 2.28-32)

1 tim 2.15
many have taken this verse to teach that womens only purpose is child birth, and doing so saves them. 
it is simply saying that if women remain godly, they will be saved from death during child birth. child birth has never saved the soul, and it does not. the fact still remains that only faith saves the soul.

i beleive women have all liberty to be preachers, pastors, teachers, youth pastors etc.

1 cor 11.5,13
v5
says that when women PRAY or PROPHECY they had have their heads covered.
prophecy means to preach. this is proof that women did pray and preach in the church.

acts 2.16-21
speaks of sons and DAUGHTERS prophecying.
the word prophecy their is translated = to fortell events, or also to simply speak under the inspiration of god.

8 reasons for women preachers.
1. in the gospels we read of several women messengers who proclaimed "good news".
(matthew 28.1-10, luke 24.9-11, john 4.28-30. 20.16-18)

2. in acts.2.14-21, joel 2.28-31 god promises and predicted that he himself would pour out his spirit upon women and they would prophecy. to "prophecy" means to "speak to men to edification, to exhortation, and comfort" (1 cor 14.3)
not simply telling of the future. but this is also preaching.

3. in acts 21.8-9 it is clear that phillips 4 daughters were prophetesses, that is they were evangelists like their father.

4. in romans 16 we have a record of a number of women servants of the lord in various churches.
Phede. (v1-2)  Priscilla (v3-5) Mary, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, and Julia (v 6-15) are mentioned as labourers in the lord.

5. in Phillipians 4.2 Euodias and Syntyche are mentioned as being leaders in the church in phillipi.
they were perhaps deaconesses, we do not know, but they differed on some unknown point, and he told them to have the same mind. but it is clear they held some sort of leadership position. as is clear from verse 3 also, labouring with him.

6. corinthian women prophesied and prayed in church ( 1 cor 11.4-5). so the scripture in 1 cor 14.34-35  that has been used to condemn women preachers does not refer to preaching, but to refer to church disturbances. such as asking or talking out in church.
even so, 1 tim 2.11-15
paul is not condemning women preachers as long as they keep their place and did not dictate authority over the man.
both men and women were permitted to pray and prophesy, but were regulated by fixed laws in doing so.
these were the customary laws of the time.

7. in 1 cor 12. paul compares the church to a human body and mentions 9 gifts of the spirit, including the gift of prophecy, for all the members of the body of christ.

8. Women were used of God in O.T. days as prophetesses (ex 15.20, judges 4.4, 2 kings 22.14, 2 Chr 34.22, Neh 6.14, Isa 8.3, luke 1.39-56. 2.36)

god has used a ROD (ex 4.2,17) donkey (num 22.28) rams horn (josh 6.5) ox goad, nail, barely cake, pitchers, jawbones, milstones, mantles, ditches, empty vessels, cruise of oil, ravens, worm, wind, fish, gourd, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], and many other seemingly weak things to confound the mighty. is it not possible then that he can use a woman?

that was not stated in argument toward anyones previous post.
just stating some facts that might lend some light on this issue.

i think it is aparent the power, authority and blessing of god that women preachers can have. women like juanita bynum, jill anthony, kathyrin kulhman, etc. have done great and mighty exploits for God.

if women could be prophetesses to the nations in the old testament, why not preachers to the nations now?

one principle the bible teaches is that there is no man, woman, gentile or jew in his sight. in regard to his blessing and possibilities, all have the same potential and he doesnt regard any type of person higher than another.
if god will go to such extreme cases "using rocks, bones, and bears" to fullfill his will, why would he hold a woman so low as to have things he would not allow her to do?

to me, (stone me if you will)
but it must have been pauls reasoning and custom that women could not be in authority (if thats what he meant), not neccesarily the unchanging law of God.
 
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SunnyLin

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THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking the time to help me! it really really really means a lot to me. it may seem stupid, but i've been worrying about this concept for a while. i serached through my bible for another reference to the subject, but i could nt find anything really relevant. i just recently asked my pastor about the subject and he gave me a few of the passages you mentioned. thank you so much! it really cleared everything up for me. if eel so much better and certain about God's will. i was doubting the feelings that i believe God had given me. Thanks so much! it really really meant a lot to me. :) thanks again!
 
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endure

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well im glad i could somehow be of some help.

recently i was talking to my mother on this same subject and she told me something i had never heard on this subject that i beleive to be true.

1 tim 2.9-15
when paul teaches this, he gives his reason by talking about adam and eve in verses 13,14. and how eve was decieved and not adam.
that generally is refering to a relationship between a married couple. not just any woman, and any man.
when the bible talks about a woman submitting to a man, it is speaking about her husband, woman should submit to their husbands as the leaders of the home as long as it is in line with them submitting to god.

my mom was telling how she beleived what paul was saying in this is not that women can pastor churches or be leaders in churches, becuase god doesnt see woman any diffrent than men really, but that when a wife is pastor, and her husband is a member of the congregation, it just....doesnt really work right, becuase her husband is the one thats supposed to be leading the home and his wife. but if she is pastor, then she is the one in authority and she is the one leading.
see? its just an awkward situation.
the husband is the leader of the home, but her being a pastor puts her in authority and leadership over him. and not that thats even wrong, but paul didnt allow them to doit because it just doesnt work right...see what im trying to say?

my mom was saying she beleived this meant that a woman really shouldnt be the pastor or leader over a church if her husband who is supposed to her leader is a member of that church.
not that women cant pastor, but that it just doesnt work and seem to be right if she is leading her husband.

i hope that made sense. it really gave me some insight to this.
 
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Brian45

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When I consider what I see in the world today ( pedaphilia , homosexual priests etc etc ) I see no reason why a woman can't be a pastor or anything else they want to be .

And if we go back 2000 years the rule of thumb was that women should not teach , they didn't have the complete bible and gods word was spoken oraly .

Today we have the complete bible and have no need that anyone should teach us .

On these grounds I believe that women should be allowed to participate at all levels .
 
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Whitestone

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Hello all, I have recently had some interactions with women in authority being a topic. I know the bible says that woman cannot have authority over men (spiritual speaking), but I also know women have been used by God in great ways to spread the gospel. My problem is, is that I do not understand really where to draw the lines, and this is a hinderance to me being able to witness well.

My questions are:

Can women be assistant Pastors?

Could a woman be the head of the administrative part of a church?

How do we diffierentiate between being in spiritual authority and spreading the gospel, is it when someone thinks they are accountable to you?

I probably have more questions but these all the ones I can think of at the moment, if you respond to my questions please list the biblical verses that are applicable to help me get a better biblical understanding in this arena.

Thank you Whitestone
 
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I'm just going to post some of what she said because that is fully what I believe, and I can't say it any better then she did (but of course, I have something to say too!)-
From [url]http://www.bible.com/answers/awomemin.html,[/url] By Betty Miller


Quote:

"Women as Ministers

How does all of this lead up to women ministers? Perhaps you are thinking that although we have laid a biblical foundation for "neither male nor female" in Christ, certain verses in the New Testament still seem to ban women from ministry positions in the church. Let's examine these verses for the true interpretation.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians
14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy
2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts
18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that?

With all this in mind, what then do we make of the troubling verses that command women to be silent in the churches? First of all, we must interpret those verses in light of what we have just established--that there were women in leadership positions of the church. Obviously, Paul is not writing to them. He is must be addressing another issue entirely--the women who were loud and unruly during the service, causing disorder and confusion..

When he wrote the Corinthians, he was dealing with a church that was very disorderly in their services. Much of the letter was spent correcting excesses and abuses. Some of these pertained to women in particular and some were to the entire church. Paul is not being prejudiced against women when he instructs the Corinthian women to keep silence. In the early church the seating arrangement was quite different from our modern day churches. Men were seated on one side of the church while the women and children were seated on the opposite side. This is still practiced in many cultures today.

The women of Christ's day were generally uneducated and usually only the men were privileged with an education. Due to this situation, when the church met the women were tempted to shout across the room and ask their husbands the meaning of whatever was being taught. This disturbed the service. Paul was simply saying during the service, "Women, keep your children quiet and you be quiet, and if you have anything to ask your husbands, wait until you get home." Because of the new equality that Christianity brought to women, it could be that some of them were taking their freedom too far, to the point of being obnoxious.

When Paul wrote to Timothy, he gave him a similar directive. Again, it is important to understand the context in which the letter was written. In I Timothy, a careful reader becomes aware that many severe heresies and false teachings that were being dealt with. We can draw a conclusion here that many of the proponents and victims of the false teachings were women. Timothy pastored in
Ephesus, and it has been suggested that goddess worship might have played a large part in Paul dealing so severely with the women. Ephesus was a primary center of the worship of Diana or Artemis. The heresies being taught might have suggested that women were authoritative over men and had higher access to spiritual knowledge than men did.

Regardless of the particulars, in both cases we can see that Paul is dealing with specific incidents in specific churches for very particular reasons.

We must understand that many of Paul's epistles dealt with local problems and his commandments are not meant to be taken as "commandments" across the board for all situations. Rather, we are to seek the Lord for the basic principal that needs to be incorporated in our churches. Because of Old Testament precedents that had already been set, apparently it never occurred to Paul re-establish the case for women in ministry. Why would he need to? The early church took it as a matter of course that Jesus would call and ordain anyone He chose--and that settled it! As a matter of fact, the Bible mentions a prophetess who was in the
Temple when Jesus was brought there as a baby. Her name was Anna (Luke 2:25-35), and she was one of two people who recognized Jesus as the Messiah because of her sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.

Paul's writings are sometimes misunderstood today because we do not know all the details that led him to write as he did. We must rely on the Holy Spirit, and the rest of the testimony of Scripture to interpret how we are to apply these things to our everyday lives. Scripture should always be compared with other Scripture and the context taken into consideration. Even in Paul's day, there were those who tried to twist the meaning his words.

"...His (Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction" ( 2 Peter 3:16).

It is a fair conclusion that the testimony of the bulk of Scripture, church history and God's anointing upon them, all speak plainly for women being able to fulfill all positions of the five-fold offices of apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher."- By Betty Miller

Copyright ©2003 by Christ Unlimited Publishing




There is much more about women as leaders in the church on this page, check it out.
[url]http://www.bible.com/answers/awomemin.html[/url]




Some people seem to confuse the roles of a women in Christ with the roles of a wife.

In a marriage, the male is the head. That is stated clear as day in the Bible, but many tend to think wife means all women also. It does not, it means that male is over that one female in that union. Not all females, just that one female.

I have a women apostle, she used to be a pastor until God called her into the higher calling of an apostle a year or two ago. She is truly anointed by God in this area. As other women are, I have met many women pastors and apostles.
And I can tell you, women pastors, as any pastor (male or female) are truly a blessing. That is truly a calling of God in their lives. Now, no not all women will be called into a place of leadership, like not all men will be called into leadership.
Something else about her. She is married, and her husband is over her. No, he doesn't get up in the pulpit, he doesn't speak in the church. He wouldn't be caught dead in the front of the church, he knows he is not called there and he doesn't like being up there. He sits in the back of the church and listens. Although he may not be in the front, does not mean he is not the head of her. And he does go to her and tell her who needs to be talked to, what she needs to correct. For God put him over her, but only her. No other woman in that church, just her. And that also means, no male is over her but her husband.

If you go all the way back to Genesis, God said "He created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created him." (NIV)

God said the women is to be a help mate to the male, and if you go back to the Greek/Hebrew version, it is help-meet. They meet in the middle, the female with her gifts and the male with his gifts meet in the middle together.




And I have heard many things against this, like 'God can use them even if they are doing it in sin', or 'that women are to learn in silence with all subjection. That does not mean that they cannot say amen or praise the Lord, but it means that they are to listen to what is being taught and not to be the one teaching.’ As other women are, I have met many women pastors and apostles.'

But if you really want truth, if you really seek it. Ask God, He knows what is right and what is not. For He wrote it! :p I say, just go to Him about it. And I hope everything with this goes well! May you be blessed!






Kemper :prayer:
 
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Whitestone

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Thank you very much for the response extremely informative, I am working my way through the other site.

I happily agree that women have been used greatly in the work of the Lord, I still have one question though.

After the verse in 1 Tim 2, stating that women should not teach or be in authority over men. Why did Paul follow with Adam was first formed then Eve, yet Eve was the first one to sin, if not to solidify his point?

Please help me understand

Whitestone
 
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Everything that Paul said regarding women has to be read in light of the society in which it was written. I see women and men as being fully and completely equal in all ways.

Just my opinion--I realize from previous posts that others will disagree.
 
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brinley45cal

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SunnyLin said:
x]~ sorry to mods if they dont like this, cause i've asked this question in 2 other forums but i've really been looking for more views on the subject, especially professional ones!

Last summer, while i was away and thinking out loud to God about what i wanted to do in my life, i suddenly had this feeling to become or at least look into becoming a youth pastor. i knew there were opinions about women in ministry so ever since, i've been looking it up.

thanks to paulewag in the youth forum, i've run across 1 Timothy 2:9-15 where paul speaks about women in ministry... i'm not too excited abotu what i found:

"1 Timothy 2:9-15:
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For adam was formed first, not eve. And adam was not deceived; it was the woman who deceived and became a sinner. But womn will be saved through childbearing- if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety"

what does this mean?
Those sciptures are the tradition of that time period about women.Can a women be in a leadership role like a pastor?Yes,and there are many sucessful women pastors preachers and evangilists,some of the best ive ever heard have been woman.
Basicly its a pride thing with men.Now some denomanations wont allow woman to be in a pastoral role,like most baptist as an example.not all of them mind you i find it depends on the church not necassaraly the denomanation,but some are more leaneant than others.Hey if you feel the call hon go for it.
 
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SunnyLin said:
x]~ sorry to mods if they dont like this, cause i've asked this question in 2 other forums but i've really been looking for more views on the subject, especially professional ones!

Last summer, while i was away and thinking out loud to God about what i wanted to do in my life, i suddenly had this feeling to become or at least look into becoming a youth pastor. i knew there were opinions about women in ministry so ever since, i've been looking it up.

thanks to paulewag in the youth forum, i've run across 1 Timothy 2:9-15 where paul speaks about women in ministry... i'm not too excited abotu what i found:

"1 Timothy 2:9-15:
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For adam was formed first, not eve. And adam was not deceived; it was the woman who deceived and became a sinner. But womn will be saved through childbearing- if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety"

what does this mean?

Well, if you ask me....Go for it. In our church female reverends preach and I think they are very good at their work. They do it with love and devotion. If you want to do this and feel that you can make a difference and bring young people closer to God, I don't see what is wrong with it......but that is just my humble opinion!;)

lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi
 
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