Mysteries of DEATH, Unraveled?

Arphaxad12 · Dec 20, 2007

Hi Again HTSis :wave:

I hate to say it, but you haven't shown any scriptural proof as yet that "the dead" mentioned in our most recent posts are the supposed "dead in Christ":
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Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Acts 24:14-15 (Paul speaking) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
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I honestly don't know how much clearer it can be: "BOTH OF THE JUST AND UNJUST." Maybe I could use a bigger font.

But you seem very determined to "stuff" the Word of God into a theology you have adopted and possibly paid good hard-earned money for.

Well I certainly don't blame you for trying, but God's Word will not "fit" into any personal theology at all. It will only "fit" perfectly into the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, like Cinderella's glass slipper on the correct foot. Then it fits very nicely with no "loose ends" or "broken pieces" hanging out like some Frankenstein creation.

It's interesting though to watch people try to "fit" the Lord's Word into their personal theologies, especially when so many "loose ends" and "broken pieces" are seen "hanging out of the mold" they've tried to cram the Lord's Word into.

The Prince of this World certainly will stop at nothing to make the Lord look like an unpredictable, bloodthirsty, vengeful Ogre though. Thus he hopes that Man and God will never become close friends and that way he can maintain his position as "the Prince of this World."

I have to admit Satan has done a sterling job of maintaining the image of the Beast he wants us all to think the Lord is. After all, Satan is also "the Prince of the power of the Air." Truth be told, he's not only created "the Beast that was, and is not (real), and yet is (real in people's minds)," but also managed to keep alive that false image of God in our minds down through the many centuries since he first deceived Isha (Eve) about the character of God.

Of course, as any devil worth his salt realizes, you can't have this imaginary misconception of God looking the same through all the different periods of history. So you have to "tailor" the Beast's appearance to the vulnerabilities of Man's thinking during the different spiritual epochs of Man's existence.

One great way to accomplish that goal is to give the imaginary Beast different "heads" throughout history, "heads" appropriate to the basic vulnerabilities of Man's thinking during any historical period. I believe the bible mentions 7.

Jesus gave the "head" of the Beast prevalent during His time on Earth a "deadly wound" by showing us what God is REALLY like. But unfortunately the Prince of this World was quick to render "first aid" to his ugly portrayal of God and so the damn thing still lives on today stronger than ever! N'est pas HypoTypoSis?

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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Any guesses on Solomon's "wisdom" yet? Missing 42nd generation? Where is the MAN??

HypoTypoSis · Dec 21, 2007

Arph,
Yes, it is a great shame upon all who twist scripture to conform to the errors they were raised with; they can never learn the greater hidden mysteries of God for they have locked themselves up in the mistakes of their forebears. They go to their graves believing the lies they grew up with never learning, never spiritually growing. They are incapable of thinking for they have closed minds rooted in the false hearsay of yesteryear.

When the body dies that's it, kaput--it's all over for the flesh, it's back to dust--saved and unsaved alike. Period.

Neither the saved nor the unsaved have an "eternal soul"; man IS a soul, he does NOT HAVE a soul.

Upon salvation believers become spirit in their own right, it is eternal and unending.

The unsaved never have a spirit of their own.

The source of all life, i.e. the entire natural order of living, is maintained by God's breath of life. When that leaves there is nothing left but a corpse which returns to dust.

The wages of sin is death and this applies to the entire natural order of creation (with possibvly one or two exceptions noted in Scripture). This is the punishment for sin. There is no other punishment for sin.

Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life; no one can be resurrected except by Jesus and that Resurrection and Life is reserved exclusively for the saved.

The unsaved cannot resurrect for they are not included in the Resurrection and Life of Jesus Christ.

No where does scripture say man HAS an ETERNAL soul.

There are 54 verses in the bible that have the word "hell" in it. One verse refers to where the fallen angels are, a few refer to the city dump outside of town and all the rest refer to (the) grave. The word "hell" is not found in the scriptures; the word "hell" is PAGAN in origin and the word did not even exist until the Middle Ages about 1500 years after Jesus walked this earth; the word "hell" is an ENGLISH word. The translators putrified the word of God by inserting their own universal, humanist pagan leanings into the pure and undefiled word of God to control the ignorant masses and to force them to give money to the churches out of fear.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

angelmom01 · Dec 21, 2007

HypoTypoSis said:
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ [both] died, [and rose,] and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

My research indictes this is a KJV thing, the texts omit the bracketed words, thus we have:

"Christ died and revived"

Except that according to Strong's there are three words in that verse, not just two. Christ died (apothnēsko&#772

and rose (anistēmi) and revived (anazao&#772

.

Now anistemi means "to stand up" and anazao means "to recover life" so both can appliy to Christ, but that fact that Christ did "both" things (indicating TWO things) indicates (to me) that there must be a "grouping together" of two of those three things. So it makes sense (again, to me) to conclude that Christ both ((died and rose)) and ((revived)).... whether or not "all" of those things apply "to Him" or not.

But since "ALL in the graves" hear His voice and COME FORTH, some to a resurrection of life and others to a resurrection of damnation, it also makes to sense to me to see this after a spiritual truth and as being applicable to THE LIVING (who God is God "of") and for it to have happened at the cross when it was "finished" and the reconciliation OF THE WORLD (ALL WERE DEAD IN SIN AND TRESPASSES) took place.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

God has a covenant with both THE NIGHT (which is AS YESTERDAY when it is PAST) and THE DAY (which is TODAY when you hear his voice and harden not your heart).

He is the same YESTERDAY and TODAY and FOREVER.

Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be DAY AND NIGHT IN THEIR SEASON;

Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with DAY and NIGHT, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of HEAVEN and EARTH;

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from BENEATH; I am from ABOVE: ye are OF THIS WORLD; I am NOT OF THIS WORLD.

Pro 15:24 THE WAY of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.

These are spiritual truths and there is a spiritual connection (in types and similitude, etc) between LIFE and that which is FROM ABOVE (HEAVEN) and NOT OF THIS WORLD, just as there is a spiritual connection (application) to that which is BENEATH (EARTH) and OF THIS WORLD and HELL (the abode OF THE DEAD).

Paul said that some "remained" with them and some "fell asleep". Most believe that Paul is referring to Christians (believers) who DIED (physically). But we know that some are TWICE DEAD (plucked up from the roots). And there is a spiritual connection between "death" and "sleep" even as it applies to THE LIVING (all who are physically alive).

Christ (in the end) comes to gather those who REMAIN. He gather THE DEAD IN CHRIST first, then those who ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN.

Why divide over corpses (dead flesh) and living flesh when Christ said that unless we partake of His flesh and His blood there is NO LIFE in us (we are "dead", we "sleep" and Christ "comes" TO THOSE WHO SLEEP, as a thief IN THE NIGHT to "wake" them (raise them from the dead) AND GIVE THEM LIGHT (THE DAY, LIFE).

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

HypoTypoSis · Dec 21, 2007

angelmom,

Resurrect and life are so closely related they appear almost inseparable; however, life can exist without resurrection (as with God's breath of life in man, animal and vegetable life forms) in the natural order of creation. I'm not so sure it can work that way in revrse. Can resurrection be without life? If not, and if resurrection is TO life, we then have another matter altogether which would seem to agree with your research.

HolyGuardianAngels · Dec 21, 2007

Hi,

You forgot Purgatory. Let's be FAIR to everyone.

Purgatory because:

some people are not ready, just to walk into Heaven.
some people just don't want anything to do with Heaven (see witch craft) (see Sinful lives)
some people don't believe in death, we will always live, as in exist.

Merry Christmas
Jingle Bells
:angel:

Janice702 said:
The thing is as Christians Death and what happens beyond the grave is still a mystery to us... do we go to Heaven or Hell directly? Does Hell exist now and if so where? Death involves one of the fundamental questions of our existance, where are we going?

I couldn't explain it better than this short vid I came across recently... it really gets to the core of this subject in a short yet powerful way all backed up with scriptural references...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ1b1NyyQIY

Main channel: www.youtube.com/worldslastchance

Have a look and let me know what you all think.

God bless.

Janice

angelmom01 · Dec 21, 2007

HypoTypoSis said:
When the body dies that's it, kaput--it's all over for the flesh, it's back to dust--saved and unsaved alike. Period.

AMEN!! It is NOT "the flesh" that is "quickened" IT IS THE SPIRIT (the flesh profits nothing).

And we know that if this EARTHLY (flesh) tabernacle were dissolved that WE HAVE (IN/THROUGH/BY OUR SPIRIT that is QUICKENED IN US - BY HIS SPIRIT) an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

What happens to THE FLESH is not what happens to THE SPIRIT.

Neither the saved nor the unsaved have an "eternal soul"; man IS a soul, he does NOT HAVE a soul.

Upon salvation believers become spirit in their own right, it is eternal and unending.

The unsaved never have a spirit of their own.

Man has a spirit (the spirit OF MAN) and God's Spirit bares witness to (and quickens) OUR SPIRIT (by His SPIRIT), telling us that we are the children of God

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself ((beareth witness with)) our spirit, that we are the children of God:

God writes His laws on our hearts and gives us A NEW SPIRIT. Not "a spirit" but "a new spirit". He "quickens" OUR SPIRIT (the spirit OF MAN) by the power of HIS SPIRIT (the spirit OF GOD) that dwells in us.

The source of all life, i.e. the entire natural order of living, is maintained by God's breath of life. When that leaves there is nothing left but a corpse which returns to dust.

Which only addresses the OUTWARD (flesh) man not the INWARD (spirit) man.

The wages of sin is death and this applies to the entire natural order of creation (with possibvly one or two exceptions noted in Scripture). This is the punishment for sin. There is no other punishment for sin.

AMEN, but it is spiritual death, not physical death. We are "dead" (in sin) even while we are physically alive. Adam "died" in the day that he ate of the forbidden tree. It was not a physical death that he suffered (that came later, to his MORTAL body of flesh). It was this (spiritual) "death" that was passed on to all men through Adam, that IS "the penalty for sin ". :sleep:

Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life; no one can be resurrected except by Jesus and that Resurrection and Life is reserved exclusively for the saved.

Both the just and the unjust are resurrected:

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

ALL who are in the graves come forth...

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear his voice, And (ALL) SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good, unto the resurrection OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection OF DAMNATION.

I don't know how you can say that "the unjust" and those who come forth "unto the resurrection of damnation" are "believers" who are "saved" (but not among the "just")?

The unsaved cannot resurrect for they are not included in the Resurrection and Life of Jesus Christ.

They are not included in the resurrection OF LIFE, but they are most certainly included in the resurrection OF DAMNATION.

No where does scripture say man HAS an ETERNAL soul.

No, but it does say that THIS MORTAL must "put on" IMMORTALITY (which only Christ has).

There are 54 verses in the bible that have the word "hell" in it. One verse refers to where the fallen angels are, a few refer to the city dump outside of town and all the rest refer to (the) grave. The word "hell" is not found in the scriptures; the word "hell" is PAGAN in origin and the word did not even exist until the Middle Ages about 1500 years after Jesus walked this earth; the word "hell" is an ENGLISH word. The translators putrified the word of God by inserting their own universal, humanist pagan leanings into the pure and undefiled word of God to control the ignorant masses and to force them to give money to the churches out of fear.

Yes, there are differences between Sheol and Hades and Gehenna and tartaroō but that doesn't mean that these "places" (or conditions partaining to "the dead") do not exist.

The rich man who found himself looking up from hell (translated from the word Hades) was not unconscious, even though he "died" and "was buried" (because the parable is not about physical death).

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Click to expand...

AMEN, but again that only addresses the flesh (the outward man, that profits nothing) not the inward man (the spirit) that is quickened by His spirit that dwells in them.

I understand that you might even agree with this but see it being only applicable to "some" men and not others as you appear to believe that NOT ALL MEN HAVE "a spirit" TO BE quickened (or saved)? But yet scripture speaks of the spirit OF MAN (vs the spirit OF GOD that "saves" us).

Our spirit (the spirit of man) cannot be "quickened" (by the Spirit of God) if we don't HAVE a spirit to begin with to be "quickened".

Besides, scripture says that ALL shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ and that "every man's" work shall be tried.

1Co 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now "every man" includes those who "receive a reward" AND those who "suffer loss" (but who ARE, themselves, SAVED).

Are you going to tell me that "every man" really only means "every believer/Christian"?

1Ti 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, specially (not exclusively) of those that believe. These things command and teach.

Arphaxad12 · Dec 21, 2007

Hello HypoTypoSis :wave:

Unfortunately you appear to tenaciously possess your own individual personal theology. And this is not a terribly bad thing except that it will skew your view and knowledge of our kind and gracious Lord.

HypoTypoSis, I have posted several extremely clear scriptures showing a promised resurrection of the Just and the Unjust. You have chosen to totally ignore them in favor of your own personal opinions. But at this point at least you can't deny that you are aware of them.

So obviously there is nothing I can, or should do, to attempt to overcome someone's personal opinion. Hence on this particular subject I commend you to the enlightening power of the Holy Spirit.

Far be it from me to attempt to change any idea that a person possibly derives comfort from. It's certainly their God-given right to "believe" whatever they choose.

Confluence of scripture is my "forte." By that I mean bringing forth understanding of the Gospel of Christ by using the support of MULTIPLE scriptures, ALL FLOWING TOGETHER in perfect unity with no "loose ends" or "broken pieces."

Anyone see why Jesus asked the Pharisees, who brought the woman taken in the very act of adultery: "Where is the MAN??" No wonder they all walked away! Then the second time he stooped down and wrote, it's very likely that he wrote Lev 5:1 regarding seeing but not revealing the perpetrator of a crime or sin. If someone sees a crime or sin, such as adultery and does not reveal the identity of ALL those involved, they are aiding and abetting the perpetrators and are just as guilty as the ones committing the crime or sin.

Hence all the Pharisees and Scribes who brought the woman taken in the very act of adultery, by concealing the identity of the man involved, were all guilty of adultery under their own Law! So they ALL walked away, beginning with the eldest, who was considered the most responsible, and on down to the youngest. Also, by writing on the ground, Jesus kept the woman out of the situation because women in that day weren't educated and couldn't read.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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angelmom01 · Dec 21, 2007

HypoTypoSis said:
angelmom,

Resurrect and life are so closely related they appear almost inseparable; however, life can exist without resurrection (as with God's breath of life in man, animal and vegetable life forms) in the natural order of creation. I'm not so sure it can work that way in revrse. Can resurrection be without life? If not, and if resurrection is TO life, we then have another matter altogether which would seem to agree with your research.

All men have physical life, whether or not they have "eternal life" (spiritually life) through Jesus Christ.

Unless we partake of His flesh and His bones we have "NO LIFE" in us (even though we are PHYSICALLY alive, we are "dead", we "sleep" IN THE NIGHT).

God is the God OF THE LIVING.

Christ is Lord BOTH OF THE DEAD AND LIVING. (both being physically alive)

Jesus Christ ~IS~ THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE.

CHRIST IN YOU (is) THE HOPE OF GLORY (and "eternal life").

It is the living who are "dead" (and ALL WERE DEAD) who are in need of THE RESURRECTION (Christ) OF THE DEAD.

Spiritually, this has nothing whatsoever to do with physically decaying body in physical graves/tombs of dirt.... it has to do with "earthy", "natural" "flesh" bodies (DUST) that have "no life" in them because they are "dead" (in sin and trespass). It is ON THESE (them that believe not) that THE WRATH (judgment) of God abides. And what does Isa 26 tell us about God's judgments, when they are "in the earth"?

Mikecpking · Dec 21, 2007

HypoTypoSis said:
Arph,
Yes, it is a great shame upon all who twist scripture to conform to the errors they were raised with; they can never learn the greater hidden mysteries of God for they have locked themselves up in the mistakes of their forebears. They go to their graves believing the lies they grew up with never learning, never spiritually growing. They are incapable of thinking for they have closed minds rooted in the false hearsay of yesteryear.

When the body dies that's it, kaput--it's all over for the flesh, it's back to dust--saved and unsaved alike. Period.

Neither the saved nor the unsaved have an "eternal soul"; man IS a soul, he does NOT HAVE a soul.

Upon salvation believers become spirit in their own right, it is eternal and unending.

The unsaved never have a spirit of their own.

I agree with your statements about 'soul', the idea of a disembodied soul is a biblical nonsense. But every man has 'Ruah' or spirit.

Here is a passage which shows that an unsaved man has a spirit:
Deuteronomy 2:30 (New International Version)

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

When someone dies, the bible speaks of 'Rephaim' as an existence where death is the weakest form of life (Job 3). Here the individual can only wait for resurrection. The next blink of an eye will be that event.

Arphaxad12 · Dec 21, 2007

Hello HypoTypoSis :wave:

Maybe you don't realize it, but your therory about believers becoming eternal "spirits" after death, and never again being in any sense "flesh," is VERY Gnostic!

What about Enoch and Elijah, who never died at all? Did they become spirits somehow?

And how about all the people Jesus raised from death while he was here on Earth (Lazarus, the widow of Nain's son, Jairus' daughter, etc.)? They all died and were resurrected yet they never became "spirits" even after they were resurrected!

Thr bible says: "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die." And yet all those I just mentioned who Jesus raised during His Earthly ministry had to die TWICE!

Cheers,
"Arph"
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HypoTypoSis · Dec 21, 2007

Greetings angelmom,
I am imressed with both your earnest sincerity and quietly polite maturity in studying and seeking out the Truth through the study of the Word. Thank you!

Rather than try to cover all questions and verses raised in regards this topic I shall isolate my responses to only one point at a time. It would certainly be wonderful if we could cover all 66 books in their entirety in one post but even a portion of that, well...there just isn't enough time or energy for such. Hopefully, when we've exhausted and reached some sort of conclusion on the first issue we can move on to another.

As to your statement regarding the "spirit of man", as found in scripture, spirit refers to only one of two possible things,

1) God's breath of life, or

2) the psychological part of man.

1) "man", as in "spirit of man", in all referenced instances, speaks to ordinary mankind as a descendant of Adam

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spirit of man:

The phrase is used four times in the bible:

Proverbs 20:27The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

spirit = breath, Hebrew = neshamah

of man = an ordinary man, Heb 'adam

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Eccl 3:21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

spirit = ruach; The psychological part of man

of man = Heb: "of the sons of Adam"
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Zech 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

spirit = ruach; The psychological part of man

of man = Heb: "of the sons of Adam"
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I Cor 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

spirit = (psychologically) pneuma being imparted to man, making him a living "psuche" ("a living psuche"), or being. When taken back by God, man, without pneuma, becomes and is called "a dead soul" in each of the thirteen occurrences rendered in the A.V. "dead body", etc.

man = Gr, anthropos, an individual of the genus Homo; a human being as distinct from animals.

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fwiw, A few words and after thoughts regarding Strong and his concordance:

Strong produced a very excellent reference volume, I use it frequently myself. However, as you are aware, his is not the end all definitive source for bible study; in fact, it is only the bare basic beginnings.

Strong, as with Webster, arranged his concordance much like a dictionary; all possible usages for a word were grouped under that word.

Unfortunately, many, as you've no doubt witnessed yourslf, will inadvertently assume that all usages and meanings of a word apply to all instances of use. This simply is not so and is viewed by God as shameful.

angelmom01 · Dec 22, 2007

Arphaxad12 said:
Hello HypoTypoSis

Maybe you don't realize it, but your therory about believers becoming eternal "spirits" after death, and never again being in any sense "flesh," is VERY Gnostic!

What about Enoch and Elijah, who never dies at all? Did they become spirits somehow?

And how about all the people Jesus raised from death while he was here on Earth (Lazarus, the widow of Nain's son, Jairus' daughter, etc.)? They all died and were resurrected yet they never became "spirits" even after they were resurrected!

Cheers,
"Arph"
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Hello Arph, :wave:

What kind of body do you believe "a spiritual body" is?

Scripture says that it is sown a natural (flesh) body and it is raised a spiritual (spirit?) body.

Scripture says that GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him (not that our "old" bodies will start popping out of graves and be "perfected"), right?

Forgive the colors, I am going to use them to "divide" the verses between "the flesh" and "the spirit", if you don't mind.

1Co 15:35-45

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest IS NOT QUICKENED, except it die:

[What is it that is quickened? It is THE SPIRIT that is quickened THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING.]

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

[Where else do we see "wheat" or "some other grain"?]

But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

[It doesn't say that we keep out bodies, but they are "made perfect" somehow "in the flesh" but that GOD GIVES US a body, as it pleases Him.]

All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are ALSO celestial bodies, AND bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

[Just as there is a difference among "terrestrial" (natural/flesh) bodies; there is a difference among "celestial" (spiritual/spirit) bodies.]

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[Where else so we see "stars" and "who" are they?]

So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written,

The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

It seems to me that the the problem was that no one understood what the resurrection of the dead is, so they were asking after a natural/earthly/fleshly understanding. And what did Paul say to that? "THOU FOOL".

It was the same with the Pharisees. They asked Christ about the resurrection after a carnal understanding and what did Christ say "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

WHY? He went on to say:

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So then WHO are "the angels of God in heaven" and how does that relate to "the stars" (CELESTIAL BODIES)? :angel:

Also keep in mind that Paul said:

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction OF THE FLESH, that THE SPIRIT may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It is THE FLESH that wars against THE SPIRIT, right?

It is the OUTWARD MAN (flesh) :sleep:

vs the INWARD MAN (spirit). :angel:

But, according to Paul, we do not need to be "unclothed". We simply desire to be "clothed upon":

2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

It is not an "unclothing" that needs to take place but a PUTTING ON (being CLOTHED). And it is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality (that only Christ has) and it is this "putting on" of "immortality" (CHRIST) that gives us LIFE. :clap:

And look at Christ's words to Martha:

John 11:23-26

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Not even Martha understood the resurrection of the dead.

WE are THE DEAD and CHRIST IS THE RESURRECTION. :bow:

THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY.

What is sown in not QUICKENED except is die (the FLESH must be CRUCIFIED).

That which is born OF THE FLESH ~ IS FLESH.

That which is born OF THE SPIRIT ~ IS SPIRIT.

Paul said that if the spirit of God dwells in us then we are "no longer in the flesh" right? However, we still live in "the body of this death" until it "returns to the dust" where it came from, right? But if this earthly tabernacle WERE DISSOLVED we know that WE HAVE a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

angelmom01 · Dec 22, 2007

Hello HypoTypoSis,

Thank you for the compliment. I do try to keep an open mind and not be "too forceful" in "pushing" my own views of things. But, as you know, that can be difficult sometimes as we all tend to believe that "we" have it "right".

(So I just try to keep in mind the number of times I thought I had it right and later had my mind changed. :sorry:

)

So are you saying that the spirit (ruach) of man means something different than the spirit (ruach) of God?

I don't know. To me, spirit is spirit.

And there are many types of "spirits".. a spirit of fear, a spirit of bondage, an evil spirit, etc.

But you are losing me when you say that unsaved man does not have a spirit.

Because....

If God's spirit bears witness to man's spirit that we are the children of God, then man must HAVE "a spirit" to bear witness to, right?

If it is "the spirit" that quickens, then man must HAVE "a spirit" (in need of quickening), right?

And, as I pointed out to Arph in my last post, Paul handed one over to Satan for the destruction OF THE FLESH, so that THE SPIRIT could be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore this "unsaved" man HAD "a spirit" that was in need of salvation, right?

When God writes His laws on our hearts, he gives us A NEW SPIRIT (HIS spirit). Our spirit is quickened by His spirit that dwells in us, as I see it.

You are only the third person I have come across that has spoken about this, saying that unsaved man does not have "a spirit" (the other two I ran into at the same time on another thread). So I am afraid that I am at a disadvantage here, not being very familiar with this teaching. :o

I did gather some verses the last time I had this conversation, but I would have to go gather them up again to discuss it any further. I wouldn't mind doing so, as I would like to understand this better (even if I don't come come around to "agreeing" with it) but I do have to run for now... be back later.

Fireinfolding · Dec 22, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Hello Arph,

What kind of body do you believe "a spiritual body" is?

Scripture says that it is sown a natural (flesh) body and it is raised a spiritual (spirit?) body.

Scripture says that GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him (not that our "old" bodies will start popping out of graves and be "perfected"), right?

Forgive the colors, I am going to use them to "divide" the verses between "the flesh" and "the spirit", if you don't mind.
1Co 15:35-45

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest IS NOT QUICKENED, except it die:

[What is it that is quickened? It is THE SPIRIT that is quickened THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING.]

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

[Where else do we see "wheat" or "some other grain"?]

But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

[It doesn't say that we keep out bodies, but they are "made perfect" somehow "in the flesh" but that GOD GIVES US a body, as it pleases Him.]

All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are ALSO celestial bodies, AND bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

[Just as there is a difference among "terrestrial" (natural/flesh) bodies; there is a difference among "celestial" (spiritual/spirit) bodies.]

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[Where else so we see "stars" and "who" are they?]

So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:

it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written,

The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

It seems to me that the the problem was that no one understood what the resurrection of the dead is, so they were asking after a natural/earthly/fleshly understanding. And what did Paul say to that? "THOU FOOL".

It was the same with the Pharisees. They asked Christ about the resurrection after a carnal understanding and what did Christ say "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

WHY? He went on to say:
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
So then WHO are "the angels of God in heaven" and how does that relate to "the stars" (CELESTIAL BODIES)?

Also keep in mind that Paul said:
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction OF THE FLESH, that THE SPIRIT may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It is THE FLESH that wars against THE SPIRIT, right?

It is the OUTWARD MAN (flesh) vs the INWARD MAN (spirit).

But, according to Paul, we do not need to be "unclothed". We simply desire to be "clothed upon":
2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
It is not an "unclothing" that needs to take place but a PUTTING ON (being CLOTHED). And it is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality (that only Christ has) and it is this "putting on" of "immortality" (CHRIST) that gives us LIFE.

And look at Christ's words to Martha:
John 11:23-26

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Not even Martha understood the resurrection of the dead.

WE are THE DEAD and CHRIST IS THE RESURRECTION.

THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY.

What is sown in not QUICKENED except is die (the FLESH must be CRUCIFIED).

That which is born OF THE FLESH ~ IS FLESH.

That which is born OF THE SPIRIT ~ IS SPIRIT.

Paul said that if the spirit of God dwells in us then we are "no longer in the flesh" right? However, we still live in "the body of this death" until it "returns to the dust" where it came from, right? But if this earthly tabernacle WERE DISSOLVED we know that WE HAVE a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Execellent post!

Amen Angelmom! Praise God sis!

Just stopping in to say, "I miss YOU immensely" and Amen YA sistA!

(((HUGE hugs)))

Fireinfolding

Arphaxad12 · Dec 22, 2007

Hi Angelmon01 :wave:

A spiritual body is the exact same kind of body Jesus had after His resurrection. He ate, He drank, He appeared unclothed before His disciples on the shore of the Sea of Tiberias and was not recognized by them as physically different from any other normal man.

But when He spoke to them they knew immediately who He was, and Peter immediately lent Jesus his fisherman's coat because Jesus was naked.

Does this give you any clue? Jesus resurrected body is our example of what ours will be like. Because "when we see Him as He is, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM."

Admittedly though, Jesus resurrected body had certain abilities way beyond what we consider normal. He was able to appear and disappear in various places at will, which we obviously can't do yet. (Although the Apostle Phillip did it after he preached to the Ethiopian eunuch). Jesus also was able to enter a locked room and appear to His disciples without opening the door, and also then showed His disciples that His resurrected body was definitely "flesh and bone":
=========================================
Luk 24:36-43 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jhn 20:25-28 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (underlines and bolding are my own).
========================================

Besides, we believers are promised new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness. Will we live here as just ethereal spirits? How will we play our harps and preen our wings if we're just spirits?

"Man thinks, God laughs"
---Jewish proverb

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------
P.S. I think I've inadvertently stumbled into the Asexual Gnostic :holy:

section of Christianforums.com.

Mikecpking · Dec 22, 2007

HypoTypoSis said:
Greetings angelmom,
I am imressed with both your earnest sincerity and quietly polite maturity in studying and seeking out the Truth through the study of the Word. Thank you!

Rather than try to cover all questions and verses raised in regards this topic I shall isolate my responses to only one point at a time. It would certainly be wonderful if we could cover all 66 books in their entirety in one post but even a portion of that, well...there just isn't enough time or energy for such. Hopefully, when we've exhausted and reached some sort of conclusion on the first issue we can move on to another.

As to your statement regarding the "spirit of man", as found in scripture, spirit refers to only one of two possible things,

1) God's breath of life, or
2) the psychological part of man.
1) "man", as in "spirit of man", in all referenced instances, speaks to ordinary mankind as a descendant of Adam
----------------------------------------------

spirit of man:

The phrase is used four times in the bible:

Proverbs 20:27The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

spirit = breath, Hebrew = neshamah

of man = an ordinary man, Heb 'adam

----------------------------------------------

Eccl 3:21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

spirit = ruach; The psychological part of man

of man = Heb: "of the sons of Adam"
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Zech 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

spirit = ruach; The psychological part of man

of man = Heb: "of the sons of Adam"
-----------------------------------------------

I Cor 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

spirit = (psychologically) pneuma being imparted to man, making him a living "psuche" ("a living psuche"), or being. When taken back by God, man, without pneuma, becomes and is called "a dead soul" in each of the thirteen occurrences rendered in the A.V. "dead body", etc.

man = Gr, anthropos, an individual of the genus Homo; a human being as distinct from animals.

-----------------------------------------------

quote]
Hi Hypotyposis,
There is a difference in opinions on this matter. I noticed you did not reply to the post which clearly shows an "unbeliever" that had a spirit (human). I think there is a basic problem with your standpoint with the unsaved not having a 'spirit'. Here is a clear definition on 'soul', 'spirit' and 'heart' with their interplay in human thinking, emotion and attitudes, moral and immoral, wrong and right. Human spirit has everything to do with 'conscience' and I know plenty of non christians who live very moral lives. This I could argue that 'spirit' is playing a part.

Heree are the definitions:

THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
Ruah - Pneuma - Spirit
This 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
for the wind in nature.
for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6].
for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
Leb - Kardia - Heart
'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
 Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
 Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
 Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
 Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as
well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
 Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
 Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.
Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, Leb
It will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.
The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
 Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
 Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.
'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.

HypoTypoSis · Dec 22, 2007

Greetings angelmom,

angelmom01 said:
So are you saying that the spirit (ruach) of man means something different than the spirit (ruach) of God?

The word ruach occurs 389 times in the Hebrew O.T. In the A.V. it is rendered spirit in 237 passages (and no other word is rendered spirit except neshamah, "breath", in Job 26:4 and Prov. 20:27.

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THE OCCURRENCES OF Neshamah, "BREATH".

Gen. 2:7; 7:22.
Deut. 20:16.
Josh. 10:40; 11:11, 14.
2Sam. 22:16.
1Kings 15:29; 17:17.
Job 4:9; 26:4; 27:3; 32:8; 33:4; 34:14; 37:10.
Ps. 18:15; 150:6.
Prov. 20:27.
Isa. 2:22; 30:33; 42:5; 57:16.
Dan. 5:23; 10:17.

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I don't know.

In the remaining 152 places it is translated in 22 different ways, which are to be carefully distinguished.

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To me, spirit is spirit.

[In the R.V. ruach is rendered spirit 224 times, and in the remaining 165 passages is rendered in many different ways.] The meaning of the word is to be deduced only from its usage. The one root idea running through all the passages is invisible force. As this force may be exerted in varying forms, and may be manifested in divers ways, so various renderings are necessitated, corresponding thereto.

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And there are many types of "spirits".. a spirit of fear, a spirit of bondage, an evil spirit, etc.

Ruach, in whatever sense it is used, always represents that which is invisible except by its manifestations. These are seen both externally to man, as well as internally within man. As coming from God, it is the invisible origin of life. All apart from this is death. It comes from God, and returns to God (Ecc. 3:19, 20).

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But you are losing me when you say that unsaved man does not have a spirit.

The only spirit unsaved man has is God's breath of life.

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Because....

If God's spirit bears witness to man's spirit that we are the children of God,

"We" being the operative word, those saved in Christ.

The unsaved world wrongly assumes they are the "children of God", that is reserved specifically for those saved in Christ.

The father of the unsaved is the father of lies, the devil. To God they are as bastards.

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then man must HAVE "a spirit" to bear witness to, right?

Two words are homonyms if they are pronounced or spelled the same way but have different meanings.

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If it is "the spirit" that quickens, then man must HAVE "a spirit" (in need of quickening), right?

quickeneth = zoopoieo = maketh alive. This is reserved for those saved in Christ. The unsaved have no such spirit to call their own; only God's breath of life that briefly allows their fleshy body to enjoy sentience and its temporarilly accumulated memories.

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Paul handed one over to Satan for the destruction OF THE FLESH, so that THE SPIRIT could be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore this "unsaved" man HAD "a spirit" that was in need of salvation, right?

I Cor 5. A member of the church apparently was having an incestuous affair with his mother

"that one should have his father's wife"

thus, a saved brother, as it were, had been drawn into the lacivious lifestyle of the surrounding heathens of Corinth.

This sort cannot be accepted into the assembly (5:2, it was already having a detrimental effect on the congregation) until they have been purged of such; therefore, the

"deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved"

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When God writes His laws on our hearts, he gives us A NEW SPIRIT (HIS spirit).

Not a "new" spirit in the sense of "another" spirit but "a spirit"; one must be born (physically and, then, born) again (a spirit).

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

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Our spirit is quickened by His spirit that dwells in us, as I see it.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

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Hence, ruach is used of :

GOD,
as being invisible. "The Spirit of Jehovah" is Jehovah Himself, in His manifestation of invisible power.
2Sam. 23:2. Ps. 139:7 ( = Thee). Is. 40:13.

THE HOLY SPIRIT:
the Third Person of the Trinity.
2Sam. 23:2. 1Kings 18:12; 22:24. 2Kings 2:16. 2Chron. 18:23. Neh. 9:20, 30. Job 26:13; 33:4. Isa. 40:13; 48:16; 59:19, 21; 61:1; 63:10, 1-4. Ezek. 3:12, 14 (1st); 8:3; 11:1, 24; 37:1; 43:5. Mic. 2:7; 3:8. Zech. 4:6; 6:8; 7:12. Mal. 2:15.

INVISIBLE DIVINE POWER MANIFESTING ITSELF
In creation. Gen. 1:2.
In giving life. Ezek. 37:14.
In executing judgment--
"blast." Ex. 15:8. Isa. 37:7.
"breath." 2Sam. 22:16. 2Kings 19:7. Job 4:9; 15:30. Ps. 18:15; 33:6. Isa. 11:4; 30:28.
"spirit." Isa. 4:4; 28:6; 34:16; 40:7.

INVISIBLE "POWER FROM ON HIGH", MANIFESTING ITSELF AS DIVINE POWER
in giving spiritual gifts . Spoken of as coming upon, clothing, falling on, and being poured out. Rendered "Spirit", but should be "spirit".
Gen. 41:38. Ex. 28:3; 31:3; 35:31. Num. 11:17, 25, 26, 29; 24:2; 27:8. Deut. 34:9. Judg. 3:10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14. 1Sam. 10:6, 10; 11:6; 16:13, 14; 19:20, 23. 2Kings 2:9, 15. 1Chron. 12:18; 28:12. 2Chron. 15:1; 20:14; 24:20. Ps. 51:11, 12; 143:10. Prov. 1:23. Isa. 11:2.; 30:1; 32:15; 42:1, 5; 44:3; 59:21; 61:1; 63:11. Ezek. 2:2; 3:24; 11:5, 19; 36:27; 39:29. Dan. 4:8, 9 18; 5:11, 12, 14. Joel 2:28, 29. Hag. 2:5. Zech. 12:10.

THE INVISIBLE PART OF MAN (Psychological).
Given by God at man's formation at birth, and returning to God at his death.
"Breath." Gen. 6:17; 7:15, 22. Job 9:18; 12:10; 17:1. Ps. 104:29; 135:17; 146:4. Ecc. 3:19. Jer. 10:14; 51:17. Lam. 4:20. Ezek. 37:5, 6, 8, 9, 10. Hab. 2:19. Zech. 12:1.
"spirit." Gen. 6:3. Num. 16:22; 27:16. Job 27:3; 34:14. Ps. 31:5; 104:30. Ecc. 3:21; 8:8; 11:5; 12:7. Isa. 42:5. "Wind." Ezek. 37:9.

THE INVISIBLE CHARACTERISTICS OF MAN;
manifesting themselves in states of mind and feeling (by the Fig. Metonymy.
"Mind." Gen. 26:35. Prov. 29:11. Ezek. 11:5; 20:32. Dan. 5:20. Hab. 1:11.
"Breath." Job 19:17 ( = manner).
"Courage." Josh. 2:11.
"Anger." Judg. 8:3.
"Blast." Isa. 25:4.
"Spirit." Gen. 41:8; 45:27. Ex. 6:9; 35:21. Num. 5:14, 30; 14:24. Josh. 5:1. Judg. 15:19. 1Sam. 1:15; 30:12. 1Kings 10:5; 21:5. 1Chron. 5:26. 2Chron. 9:4; 21:16; 36:22. Ezra 1:1, 5. Job 6:4; 7:11; 10:12; 15:13; 20:3; 21:4; 32:8, 18. Ps. 32:2; 34:18; 51:10, 11, 12, 17; 76:12; 78:8; 142:3; 143:4, 7. Prov. 11:13; 14:29; 15:4, 13; 16:2, 18, 19, 32; 17:22, 27; 18:14; 25:28; 29:23. Ecc. 1:14, 17; 2:11, 17, 26; 4:4, 6, 16; 6:9; 7:8, 9; 10:4. Isa. 19:3, 14; 26:9; 29:10, 24; 33:11; 38:16; 54:6; 57:15, 16; 61:3; 65:14; 66:2. Jer. 51:11. Ezek. 13:3. Dan. 7:15. Hos. 4:12; 5:4. Mic. 2:11 (by Hendiadys, for a false of lying spirit).

Put by the Fig. Synecdoche for THE WHOLE PERSON.
Ps.3,6; 106.33 Ezek. 21.7. Dan. 2.1,3 Mal. 2. 15,16

INVISIBLE SPIRIT-BEINGS.
"Angels." Ps. 104:4.
"Cherubim." Ezek 1:12,20, 21; 10:17.
Neutral spirit-beings. Job 4:15. Isa. 31:3.
Evil angels. Judg. 9:23. 1Sam. 16:14, 15, 16, 23; 18:10; 19:9. 1Kings 22:21, 22, 23. 2Chron. 18:20, 21, 22. Zech. 13:2.

THE INVISIBLE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE ATMOSPHERE.
Temperature. Gen. 3:8 ("cool").
Air.
"Wind" or "winds" in every place where the words "wind" or "winds" occur.
"Whirlwind." Ezek. 1:4.
"Windy." Ps. 55:8.
"Spirits." Zech. 6:5.
"Air." Job 41:16.

References/Credits: E.W. Bullinger

HypoTypoSis · Dec 22, 2007

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

HypoTypoSis · Dec 22, 2007

Mikecpking said:
THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul[/B]

Cites, source, reference, please.

angelmom01 · Dec 23, 2007

Arphaxad12 said:
Hi Angelmon01

A spiritual body is the exact same kind of body Jesus had after His resurrection. He ate, He drank, He appeared unclothed before His disciples on the shore of the Sea of Tiberias and was not recognized by them as physically different from any other normal man.

He also materialized inside of locked rooms.

I do not deny that Christ appeared in a body of flesh and bones after His resurrection. How else would He have proven that He was resurrected?

How does His ability to appear in a body of flesh and bones prove anything other than the fact that He could do so at will? How does that prove that He currently maintains a body of flesh and bones or that that is the body that we will all have for eternity?

But when He spoke to them they knew immediately who He was, and Peter immediately lent Jesus his fisherman's coat because Jesus was naked.

Ok, but I thought it was Peter who was naked and who cast himself into the sea.

Does this give you any clue? Jesus resurrected body is our example of what ours will be like. Because "when we see Him as He is, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM."

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

If we already knew "what we shall be" and have already seen Him "as He is" because of His appearance after His resurrection, then why does John say (after Christ was seen in a body of flesh and bones) that "it does not yet appear what we shall be"?

Admittedly though, Jesus resurrected body had certain abilities way beyond what we consider normal. He was able to appear and disappear in various places at will, which we obviously can't do yet. (Although the Apostle Phillip did it after he preached to the Ethiopian eunuch). Jesus also was able to enter a locked room and appear to His disciples without opening the door

Exactly!

, and also then showed His disciples that His resurrected body was definitely "flesh and bone":

Why does His ability to APPEAR in a body of flesh and bones "prove" that a resurrected body IS flesh and bones?

=========================================
Luk 24:36-43 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jhn 20:25-28 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (underlines and bolding are my own).
========================================

Again, how does Christ's ability to appear in a body of flesh and bones prove that a spiritual body IS flesh and bones?

Besides, Christ's words are spirit and they are life, right? And WE are the temple of God, WE are HIS BODY... HIS FLESH and HIS BONES.

(So, perhaps He was speaking a spiritual truth, as well?)

Besides, we believers are promised new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness. Will we live here as just ethereal spirits? How will we play our harps and preen our wings if we're just spirits?

Scripture does not tell us what eternity will be like or how or where we will spend it, except to say that the kingdom will be turned over to the Father, who will be all in all. (Though I highly doubt that we will all be seated on clouds playing harps and singing hymns for all eternity.

)

The "new heavens and the new earth" were created when the Gentiles were grafted in, not to be confused with "the third heaven" (the New Jerusalem which comes down "out of heaven").

"Man thinks, God laughs"
---Jewish proverb

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------
P.S. I think I've inadvertently stumbled into the Asexual Gnostic

section of Christianforums.com.

Well, scripture does say that THERE IS NOT MALE AND FEMALE in Christ Jesus.

PS. I am not making any claims about what we will or will not be like "in eternity", I am just pointing out that I do not believe that the scriptures address that. But that makes it no less true that....

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

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