When We Choose

D-Lyte · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Gabriel

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"All may be drawn, but all are not elect. "

Agreed, because some allow God to work and others don't."

What?  Allow God?  Dude, you or I do not allow God anything.  Sovereign, look it up.

If you are so sure of your point why didn't you address the scripture I used to back up mine?  How can people with the Armenian point of view always deny the truth of scripture?  Election is plainly written throughout the bible.  How can you deny it?    Oh wait, I know. 2 Timothy 4:3&4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables.

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I believe what Louis is trying to say is that God gave us free will.  And that "free will" gives us the choice to accept His guidance or not.  Just as people have the choice to accept Him as their personal Savior or not. 

I'm pretty sure that Louis knows that He has the sovereignty over us. After all, we often refer to Him as "Lord" for a reason.   

Gabriel · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by D-Lyte
Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "especially when arguing with an Armenian?"  Please enlighten me with your knowledge.

As a brother, I hope to remind you that we are here not to do "God's job," we are not Him.  Also, please try to help one another...not making each other feel bad or insulted.  Thanks

The Armenian view of salvation is that Christ died for every single person on earth yet he was not quite sufficient enough to bring salvation.  If man does not choose to accept salvation, he cannot be saved.  The reformed view is that God predestined or elected those whom he would save.  It is not our choice or works that bring salvation, it is the irresistible call from God that awakens us to our sin and causes us to seek and acknowledge Him.  See my signature.  Also see Romans 9:11-16.

I fully understand that I cannot nor should I try to do God's job.  That was why I packed it in last night.  In my human pridefullness I often wish to continue a debate to the point of aggravation so as to change the other person's mind.  However, I cannot accomplish this and furthermore, it is sinful to become so pompous.  I do apologize for my harshness and have already repented of it to God.  If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them in love.  Other than that I will give this subject a rest for awhile.

ZiSunka · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Well, I obviously worded this question badly.  What I'm asking is do you think man is still in his fallen state when he makes the decision to serve Christ?  I'm not talking about saved people living in disobedience.  I'm talking about making the decision to "accept Christ" and receive salvation.  Do you believe man is in a fallen state when he makes that decision?

God bless

Yes. At the point in time that a man sees himself in need of Christ and chooses to accept, he is still in the fallen state. Grace comes at the actual moment of carrying through with acceptance.

There are a jillion people who know they need Christ, but never carry through with accepting Him.

Gabriel · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by D-Lyte
I believe what Louis is trying to say is that God gave us free will.  And that "free will" gives us the choice to accept His guidance or not.  Just as people have the choice to accept Him as their personal Savior or not.  

 

Concerning free will: Romans 7:18 "And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."    Before our regeneration and conversion we had no free will as we were slaves to sin, once we were regenerate and converted we became slaves to righteousness.  You might say we have free choice at this point, however God has foreordained every single action or event.  We cannot step out of His plan.  Though we are still held accountable.  See Matt. 18:6&7  and Luke 22:22.

BeanMak · Oct 25, 2002

And if the baby that is laying on my breast is not elected.... then what?

Gabriel · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by BeanMak
And if the baby that is laying on my breast is not elected.... then what?

I would pray that he/she is.  But the Word is pretty clear about that.  Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.  This before they were even born.  Having not yet done good or evil.  It seems harsh, but what we must truly realize is that a baby is not innocent just because it's a baby.  We are all born depraved and unrighteous.  Romans 9:10-21.

Reformationist · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by D-Lyte
Yes, if a man is in a "regenerate and saved" state, then our Lord wouldn't be needed.  But of course, we know that our salvation comes through Him.

Hey D-Lyte!  I have a couple of question for you this time.  What do you feel was the effect of the Fall upon the nature of mankind?  Do you believe that the Fall killed man spiritually?  Do you feel like the act of humbly supplicating one's self to the Lord is a righteous act?  If so, how is it possible that a fallen, depraved individual could make a righteous decision?

Hope I answer the right question this time.

I hope I asked clearer questions this time!

God bless

Reformationist · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by D-Lyte
As a brother, I hope to remind you that we are here not to do "God's job," we are not Him.  Also, please try to help one another...not making each other feel bad or insulted.  Thanks

Very good advice D-Lyte.  Thanks for reminding us.

God bless

BeanMak · Oct 25, 2002

Reformationist- the flip side of your question, "If so, how is it possible that a fallen, depraved individual could make a righteous decision?" is "How is it possible that a righteous individual could make a depraved decision?"

How could Adam, who intimately knew God could fall to temptation? If God is irresistable how could have Adam disobeyed?

Reformationist · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by BeanMak
And if the baby that is laying on my breast is not elected.... then what?

And how would you ever know one way or the other?  Are we commanded to deal with others based on their salvitic disposition?  If you knew for sure that your child was not one of the elect, would it change the way you loved them, or raised them?

God bless

Reformationist · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by BeanMak
Reformationist- the flip side of your question, "If so, how is it possible that a fallen, depraved individual could make a righteous decision?" is "How is it possible that a righteous individual could make a depraved decision?"

How could Adam, who intimately knew God could fall to temptation? If God is irresistable how could have Adam disobeyed?

This is actually a fantastic question that I have wondered about numerous times.  Adam and Eve

were created righteous.  There is a difference in salvitic righteousness and works of righteousness.  All people who are saved are righteous in the eyes of God.  Are all our actions righteous?  Of course not.  The righteousness of our nature is not determined by our actions.  It is determined by Jesus' actions.  Additionally, the position that I hold is that an unrighteous person, while they can make choices, the pool of motives they can draw from are all sinful, therefore their decisions are sinful, no matter their outward appearance.  Upon our regeneration, the ability to make sinful choices based on selfish motives has not been taken from us, rather the ability to make righteous choices based on selfless motives has been added to the pool of motives from which we may choose.  In the case of Adam and Eve, they weren't limited to only righteous choices.  They had the same ability that regenerate man today has, that of righteous and sinful choices.  The difference between them and us is that they did not have a lifetime of habitually sinful behavior to contend with breaking out of.

God bless

BeanMak · Oct 25, 2002

That is a good answer.
I will have to think on this. There are implications swimming in my head.

D-Lyte · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Gabriel
The Armenian view of salvation is that Christ died for every single person on earth yet he was not quite sufficient enough to bring salvation.  If man does not choose to accept salvation, he cannot be saved.  The reformed view is that God predestined or elected those whom he would save.  It is not our choice or works that bring salvation, it is the irresistible call from God that awakens us to our sin and causes us to seek and acknowledge Him.  See my signature.  Also see Romans 9:11-16.

I fully understand that I cannot nor should I try to do God's job.  That was why I packed it in last night.  In my human pridefullness I often wish to continue a debate to the point of aggravation so as to change the other person's mind.  However, I cannot accomplish this and furthermore, it is sinful to become so pompous.  I do apologize for my harshness and have already repented of it to God.  If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them in love.  Other than that I will give this subject a rest for awhile.

I see, thank you for the information. 

D-Lyte · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Hey D-Lyte!  I have a couple of question for you this time.  What do you feel was the effect of the Fall upon the nature of mankind? 

 

Separation from God. 

Do you believe that the Fall killed man spiritually? 

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Yes, afterall...Adam didn't die "physically" after eating the fruit.  Death is bad...but away from Him is worse

Do you feel like the act of humbly supplicating one's self to the Lord is a righteous act?

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Yep  

If so, how is it possible that a fallen, depraved individual could make a righteous decision?

Click to expand...

It would be tough.  For Abraham, he has to leave his family, his home, etc to be righteous before God.  So I would say by seeking God's will and not our own.

I hope I asked clearer questions this time!
God bless

Click to expand...

Haha, thank you...and may the same blessing goes to you too. 

D-Lyte · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
This is actually a fantastic question that I have wondered about numerous times.  Adam and Eve were created righteous.  There is a difference in salvitic righteousness and works of righteousness.  All people who are saved are righteous in the eyes of God.  Are all our actions righteous?  Of course not.  The righteousness of our nature is not determined by our actions.  It is determined by Jesus' actions. 
God bless

Interestingly, I've watched a video about Hudson Taylor (a missionary to China) and in it he brought up an interesting fact.  In Chinese, the word righteous is made up of two other words.  The word lamb on top and the word me on bottom.  He explains that our righteous comes from Christ.  As the Lamb of God, He led me back to God.  :idea:

Reformationist · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by D-Lyte
Separation from God.

And what is it that you think keeps us separated from God? 

Yes, afterall...Adam didn't die "physically" after eating the fruit.  Death is bad...but away from Him is worse

So, in Ephesians, when it says we are "dead in our trespasses" you take that to mean we are spiritually dead, right?  I'm not trying to be redundant.  I just want to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you. 

It would be tough.  For Abraham, he has to leave his family, his home, etc to be righteous before God.  So I would say by seeking God's will and not our own.

While I don't disagree with your statement that "seeking God's will and not our own" would be righteous I am totally confused on why you believe a creature who is spiritually dead and separated from the only source of righteousness is able to make a righteous decision.

  How could a man who was a pagan and didn't believe in God all of a sudden not only believe in Him but believe in Him so much that he is willing to sacrifice the son he so desired because God told him to.  Abraham was a godless individual.  Yet, you believe he cast off his entire belief system and then embraced, so fully, God and His Word.  I believe that fallen man is spiritually dead and, just as a physically dead person can not respond to a call, a spiritually dead person cannot answer a call.  The clearest way I could explain my view of fallen man's unassisted ability to respond to the call of God is this:

Imagaine that a man goes into a mortuary and says, "Okay people (to the bodies), I have with me a vial of medicine that can bring you back from the dead.  I am giving it out for free.  All you have to do is come get in line."

Obviously a dead person cannot "come get in line."  They're dead.  Dead is a pretty powerful word and I can't help but get the feeling that most people think that means they are destined for hell by the transgressions of Adam but their fallen nature plays no part in limiting their ability to overcome their deadness.  It seems as if most believe that the dead person does overcome their spiritual death and "comes and gets in line" because the dead person recognizes their need for the potion.  How does a dead person recognize anything, much less their need for God?

Have you ever heard of previent grace?  It sounds like that's what you believe in. 

Haha, thank you...and may the same blessing goes to you too. 

Thanks.  I am really enjoying discussing this with you.

God bless

D-Lyte · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
And what is it that you think keeps us separated from God? 

 

Depends on how you look at it.  Sin for one, simply because our God is a righteous one.  Another thing that I begin to see that draws us away from Him is our pride.  Our sense of that we know enough..."we're good enough," or "I don't really need Him." That type of attitude.  Lucifer fall because of his arrogance and pride, etc.  So, what do you think is the cause that separate us from Him?

So, in Ephesians, when it says we are "dead in our trespasses" you take that to mean we are spiritually dead, right?  I'm not trying to be redundant.  I just want to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you. 

Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. 

While I don't disagree with your statement that "seeking God's will and not our own" would be righteous I am totally confused on why you believe a creature who is spiritually dead and separated from the only source of righteousness is able to make a righteous decision.   How could a man who was a pagan and didn't believe in God all of a sudden not only believe in Him but believe in Him so much that he is willing to sacrifice the son he so desired because God told him to.  Abraham was a godless individual.  Yet, you believe he cast off his entire belief system and then embraced, so fully, God and His Word.

Click to expand...

  

Maybe our definition for spiritual death is different.  When Adam leaves Eden, He loses the presence of our Lord (the closeness), he fall short on grace (now he has to work for his living, etc), and eventually the love of God.  That doesn't mean God's love no longer exist, but that he (Adam) can no longer "enjoy" it.  In a sense, he will live a life without God.  This doesn't mean it erases all tracks of God.  After all, he still praises the Lord.  But even so wouldn't bring him back to Eden (spiritual death).  And regarding unrighteous person making a righteous choice...I know that there is a standard of morality within us--it's just a matter of choice to follow it or not.  (of course, here you may say that moral are taught not inherent.) 

And as for Abraham and all believers.  When we first believes...we have faith, and that faith will grow stronger and firmer as we experience Him more on our daily lives.  Just as Abraham, his relationship grew strong to a point that he willingly "trust" in God's decision.  It takes time for us to grow. 

D-Lyte · Oct 25, 2002

I believe that fallen man is spiritually dead and, just as a physically dead person can not respond to a call, a spiritually dead person cannot answer a call. The clearest way I could explain my view of fallen man's unassisted ability to respond to the call of God is this: Imagaine that a man goes into a mortuary and says, "Okay people (to the bodies), I have with me a vial of medicine that can bring you back from the dead. I am giving it out for free. All you have to do is come get in line."

Your analogy makes sense. But if our Lord is able to even call the dead to rise. I wouldn't doubt His power through His Gospel. Unlike the dead, we still have the ability to reason. Some choose to believe...some do not.

Obviously a dead person cannot "come get in line." They're dead. Dead is a pretty powerful word and I can't help but get the feeling that most people think that means they are destined for hell by the transgressions of Adam but their fallen nature plays no part in limiting their ability to overcome their deadness. It seems as if most believe that the dead person does overcome their spiritual death and "comes and gets in line" because the dead person recognizes their need for the potion. How does a dead person recognize anything, much less their need for God?

I guess our definition for spiritual death is different.

Have you ever heard of previent grace? It sounds like that's what you believe in.

I'm sorry, I've tried looking that word up in a dictionary. Could you please tell me what that means? Thanks

I am really enjoying discussing this with you.

God bless [/B]

Likewise

I like your idea concerning different kinds of righteous

Flibertyjibbet · Oct 25, 2002

Sorry Ref! That's why I'm a Flibertyjibbet (ditzy blond...from Joe vs. the Volcano

)

Ummm....define 'fallen state" please (also with some biblical references)

blessings,

Robin

LouisBooth · Oct 25, 2002

"Hopefully something else will arise."

No problem, just showing you where God does say "redondant" things in the bible, as you said he didn't

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