End of the World? Not yet.

I am not a preterist...Admittedly, I do have some leanings and questions that seem to lead me to some of the conclusions of preterist teachings. One of which is, if you are a Christian, you are part of the true Israel now. The one that counts. I believe the Bible teaches that. I also question all those time texts from Paul, Peter, John...etc. about the last times or the last days...How exactly do they fit? I'm still working that out. enjoying the discussion and I guess we'll agree to disagree on citizenship of the true Israel being a birthright of the Christian...

Hey jenlu,
Did you read my post before the last one? I posted two.

Yeah, I read it...

Your "think about this" is interesting...If Israel had accepted Jesus I would be a Jew...but by the same token...they didn't, and I'm still a Jew...ie part of Israel...

Originally posted by jenlu
Yeah, I read it...

Your "think about this" is interesting...If Israel had accepted Jesus I would be a Jew...but by the same token...they didn't, and I'm still a Jew...ie part of Israel...

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Are you saying that you were born a Jew??

No...

I'm saying, I believe the Bible to teach that the true Israel has Jesus Christ as it's Lord and Savior. Therefore making me of Israel when I became a Christian.

Originally posted by jenlu
No...

I'm saying, I believe the Bible to teach that the true Israel has Jesus Christ as it's Lord and Savior. Therefore making me of Israel when I became a Christian.

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What scriptures lead you to believe this??

I believe Paul explains it very well in his letters...if you want book, chapter, and verse lemme know...don't know them off hand...but I do know, that I have referred to them many times in this thread..."circumcision of the heart/spirit"..."true descendants of Abraham"...etc.

Originally posted by jenlu
I'd like to delve more into this Maranatha,

Where in Revelations do you believe God is telling us, Israel as a nation and people(and I mean people of what we call the Jewish religion living in the land of Israel) will be saved?

Didn't Paul teach that we as Christians became descendents of Abraham by circumcision of the heart unlike those that were no longer descendants of Abraham through circumcision of the flesh...Implying that we belong to the true Israel? That's the way I see it as of right now...

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Jenlu, hello

If you are referring to the Jewish religion as Judaism, then there will not be any saved here. What I am referring to is the existence of Israel as a nation in the 1,000 year kingdom of CHRIST, and that there will be Jews of the flesh whom will become saved by accepting CHRIST during the tribulation period, these are the Jews that look up and see the one that they have pierced and mourn. They will enter the kingdom as flesh and blood as the nation of Israel. The 144,000 are among this group. Jews as a whole will not be saved simply because they are Jews, they will be saved like the rest of us through the blood of CHRIST. During the tribulation period there will be many Jews who will realized that JESUS was the MESSIAH and put their faith in HIM, as with all races and nationalities during this time. The Jews that become believers are the ones I am referring to as Israel as a nation or country, which will enter the kingdom of CHRIST.

This is the plan I believe GOD has for the nation of Israel. I do not believe Israel as a whole, has been replaced by gentile believers, and the Jews have become irrelevant in GOD'S plan. Peace, but not yet.

 

Originally posted by jenlu
I believe Paul explains it very well in his letters...if you want book, chapter, and verse lemme know...don't know them off hand...but I do know, that I have referred to them many times in this thread..."circumcision of the heart/spirit"..."true descendants of Abraham"...etc.

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Hello jenlu,
Sorry, I had to go to bed, midnight shift worker. Read Romans 11.
It is all about "The Remnant of Israel", "Ingrafted Branches" and "All Israel Will Be Saved."

It appears to me, that the scriptures say, if you are not born a natural Israelite, then you can not be from the root. We must remember that the root (Israel) rejected Christ, but the branches (Gentiles) received Christ. We will not replace them, but after God has finished with us, He will heal and restore them.

INGRAFTED BRANCHES 
[Romans 11:11-24[/B] - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
(12)But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means for the Gentiles, how much greater will their fullness bring!
(13)I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
(14)in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
(15)For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
(16)If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(17)If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
(18)do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
(19)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."  Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
(21)For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
(22)Consider the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
(23)And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
(24)After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that was wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED
(25)I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

By this we can see that God is not finished with them yet, but first He will finish with us Gentiles, and then they too will be restored to their promised everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham in Gen. 17.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
By this we can see that God is not finished with them yet, but first He will finish with us Gentiles, and then they too will be restored to their promised everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham in Gen. 17.

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What is left unfinished with us Gentiles, and what is unfulfilled in the Abrahamic covenant?

...after He has taken His bride to the place He was preparing for her...

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Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Note that he didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
  I am not a Jew, or a member of Israel. I am part of the bride, and part of the church. 
 

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Romans 11:17
    And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

You were grafted into Isreal. But the roots do not change just because you graft a wild olive branch into them. The roots still remain Hebrew. You are still a gentile, that distinction never changes.

Originally posted by jenlu
Where in Revelations do you believe God is telling us, Israel as a nation and people(and I mean people of what we call the Jewish religion living in the land of Israel) will be saved? 

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God is no respector of persons, he does not favor one person over another. People from every tounge, nation, tribe and culture will be saved as well as people from every generation.

Zech. 13:8-9
    And it shall come to pass in all the land,"
    Says the Lord,
    "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
    But one-third shall be left in it:
    [9] I will bring the one-third through the fire,
    Will refine them as silver is refined,
    And test them as gold is tested.
    They will call on My name,
    And I will answer them.
    I will say, 'This is My people';
    And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "
 


 

Originally posted by JohnR7
Romans 11:17
    And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

You were grafted into Isreal. But the roots do not change just because you graft a wild olive branch into them. The roots still remain Hebrew. You are still a gentile, that distinction never changes.

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My point exactly.

Know what I'D like to know? Where did bluesubmarine get the theory of five-billion years-sun exploding in the first place? Can I say what I believe...just to get it out in the open?

*ahem* (and please excuse me if Ibring up anything already discussed in this thread I didn't read it thoughrly, juat skimmed).I believe that Jesus is coming back soon. He did after all...say that he was coming soon 2000 yrs ago....so how much sooner do we think it is now? The sings of the end of the age are EVERYWHERE! And I quote.....Matthew 24:6,7,8- You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of the birth pains. So all these things are happening right now...(Take September 11 as an example) That means Christ is coming soon. Like...how cool is that? And the bible does say that all will hear the Gospel before He returns. And it's our job to do it. So let's get down to it, because if we don't declare his name, the rocks will! How's that for determination! And inatimate objects,of all things! So we need to declare his name ot the ends of the earth, and always be ready for his return! Let's not be like the five foolish (probably blonde ) virgins. Hooray for God!

That's just my twenty-seven-cents worth.

17)If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
(18)do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
(19)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
(21)For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.


Jesus is the root...not Israel...At least the way I read it..."For if God did not spare the natural branches(those of Israel or Jews)...."Branches were broken off (Jews) so that you could be grafted in"...

jews were the branches broken off, but make no mistake...MANY, MANY, MANY, and the majority of first Christians(beleivers in Christ and firstborn of the real Israel) were Jews...But Jesus is the root of the vine...NOT Israel IMHO...

Originally posted by jenlu
17)If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
(18)do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
(19)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
(21)For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.


Jesus is the root...not Israel...At least the way I read it..."For if God did not spare the natural branches(those of Israel or Jews)...."Branches were broken off (Jews) so that you could be grafted in"...

jews were the branches broken off, but make no mistake...MANY, MANY, MANY, and the majority of first Christians(beleivers in Christ and firstborn of the real Israel) were Jews...But Jesus is the root of the vine...NOT Israel IMHO...

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Hello jenlu,
I still fail to see how this makes us Israel. Jesus told Peter, "On this rock I will build my church." He is not building Israel. Israel was already here when He came the first time. When the Messiah comes to rule and reign, He will rule over Israel, the Gentiles and the entire world, from Jerusalem which is the center of all nations, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

When we return with Christ in His second coming, we will be coming back as the sons of God, not Israel. Romans 8:18-25.

First of all, I was disputing your argument, not proving mine...

Now, you say "Israel was already here when He came the first time"...What was the state of Israel, from God's point of view, when Jesus was given to the world. It was in absolute rejection of God. Of course there was a remnant that believed truly, That is why Jesus came...Israel had blown it, over and over and over again...Jesus even states how much he would like to be able to help them, but because of their "unbelief" their status as above all nations(in God's eyes) was beginning to cease...

Enter the New (TRUE) Israel...those grafted in because of their "belief"...NO ONE will be grafted back in(as a flesh born Jew) without "belief"....unlike what it was before Jesus...in which a flesh born Jew was born grafted in...

Jesus and his Jewish followers were true Israel and the rest were cut off back in the days of St. Peter, even as Moses has foretold (Acts 3:22-24).

Jesus and his Jewish followers were God's covenant Israel (Phil 3:3; Gal 6:15-16; 1 Peter 2:9).

Israel entered into its New Covenant as was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

As was always the case, God could and did cut out certain ones from the covenant. God did so under Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and Jesus. Furthermore, God could and often did add foreigners into the Old Testament Israel as full citizens. He did so en mass under the Messiah, Jesus Christ."

Originally posted by LastDazed
Jesus and his Jewish followers were true Israel and the rest were cut off back in the days of St. Peter, even as Moses has foretold (Acts 3:22-24).

Jesus and his Jewish followers were God's covenant Israel (Phil 3:3; Gal 6:15-16; 1 Peter 2:9).

Israel entered into its New Covenant as was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

As was always the case, God could and did cut out certain ones from the covenant. God did so under Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and Jesus. Furthermore, God could and often did add foreigners into the Old Testament Israel as full citizens. He did so en mass under the Messiah, Jesus Christ."

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Hello LastDazed,
It is true that Jesus and His Jewish followers were members of Israel, but none of the scriptures you provided above say that the church has replaced Israel. When Christ came, He first offered salvation to the Jews, and then the Gentiles. Nowhere in scripture have I ever read that Christ or anyone else said, "The church is replacing Israel". We are aliens here, and He went to prepare a place for us. Who is Christ coming back for, Israel or His church??