WHat happens at death??

John 1:32 “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.”
John 1:33 “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”
John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
John “3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].”
John 4:23 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”
John 4:24 “God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.”
John “6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.”
John “7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
John 11:33 “When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,”
John 13:21 “When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.”
John 7:39 “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
John “14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
John “14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John “15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
John “16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
John “19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
John “20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”

PROPHECYKID said:

Let me point you to these 2 posts. #15 and 30 gives an explanation. Read then and tell me what you think

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I responded to the pneuma aspect of post 15. If you look at the usage of pneuma in just the Gospels it doesn't fit the definition you gave.

HisdaughterJen said:

And where was Jesus' spirit while he was dead?

Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

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Should not this verse say the "Son of Man's Body?"

As you believe that the Son of man went first to take the thief to heaven, then went down to hell to do some teaching.

That begs the question... is the Son of Man his body or his spirit?

In Matt 12:40, Jesus said, where He will be... Not where his body would be.

PROPHECYKID said:

The comma in that text in lukc 23 is placed on the wrong side of the word today. It was supposed to be placed after today. That is an admitted and known error. Jesus cannot tell the thief that he would be with him in paradise that same day because Jesus never ascended into heaven until some time after his resurrection.

Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

When you die your spirit goes back to God who gave it. You are not your spirit. You will be raised at the trump of God and your body will be changed.

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The thief on the cross is where Jesus stated that today He would be with him in paradise. Does not mean that Jesus was going right away but this man was leaving also.. So Jesus told Him that He would be with Him (Jesus) in Paradise.. Now Jesus might not have been there on that day but He did make it there.. But the man was going there today.. Does this make sense?

Gary51 said:

Should not this verse say the "Son of Man's Body?"

As you believe that the Son of man went first to take the thief to heaven, then went down to hell to do some teaching.

That begs the question... is the Son of Man his body or his spirit?

In Matt 12:40, Jesus said, where He will be... Not where his body would be.

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Why would it say this? For Jesus body never knew decay and His rose from the dead in His body.. We know this because He told Mary Magdaline not to cling to Him for His body had not yet been glorified.. Death has no power over the Son of man.. For He is creator of Heaven and earth. Does not mean that the thief was not in paradise that day as Jesus stated He would be.

IamAdopted said:

The thief on the cross is where Jesus stated that today He would be with him in paradise. Does not mean that Jesus was going right away but this man was leaving also.. So Jesus told Him that He would be with Him (Jesus) in Paradise.. Now Jesus might not have been there on that day but He did make it there.. But the man was going there today.. Does this make sense?

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HA HA HA HO HO HO TEE HEE HEE...

Gary51 said:

HA HA HA HO HO HO TEE HEE HEE...

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Why is this such a hard concept to accept?

So if the theif died and went to Paradise is He with Jesus?

If you will look at what the thief said prior to Jesus' comment, he said "remember me when you (Jesus) come into your kingdom." Now since Jesus has not come into his kingdom yet, since the resurrection and Christ's return have not happened yet, then what Jesus said was a promise to the thief that he would be in Jesus' kingdom.

drmmjr said:

If you will look at what the thief said prior to Jesus' comment, he said "remember me when you (Jesus) come into your kingdom." Now since Jesus has not come into his kingdom yet, since the resurrection and Christ's return have not happened yet, then what Jesus said was a promise to the thief that he would be in Jesus' kingdom.

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The resurrection hasn't happened yet? IS Christ still in the tomb? IS He not at the right hand of God?

His kingdom is beyond our idea of space and time. While the final battle and lasting eternal physical kingdom on earth has not arrived yet, He is King and His Kingdom is now.

Eph 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength,
Eph 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.




Luk 22:67 “If you are the Christ,” they said, “tell us.”
Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me,
Luk 22:68 and if I asked you, you would not answer.
Luk 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”

The thief went to paradise as Jesus Promised..

PROPHECYKID said:

The word spirit had different meanings. It can mean the breath of God or an invisible being like the holy spirit.

pneuma
Thayer Definition:
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force

2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul

3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ

4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.

5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

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So you take the last definition as THE definition for man?

Gary51 said:

Should not this verse say the "Son of Man's Body?"

As you believe that the Son of man went first to take the thief to heaven, then went down to hell to do some teaching.

That begs the question... is the Son of Man his body or his spirit?

In Matt 12:40, Jesus said, where He will be... Not where his body would be.

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His body is where He resided, not who He was. His body lay in the grave. The Bible says Jesus went to Hades/Sheol which is also referred to as the heart of the earth. Paradise was a compartment of Hades until after the resurrection.

mont974x4 said:

The resurrection hasn't happened yet? IS Christ still in the tomb? IS He not at the right hand of God?

His kingdom is beyond our idea of space and time. While the final battle and lasting eternal physical kingdom on earth has not arrived yet, He is King and His Kingdom is now.

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Oh yes, Jesus has resurrected. But the resurrection that will happen at his second coming hasn't happened yet. That is the resurrection I speak of. I don't doubt that Jesus is King and that he has a kingdom, it's just that the kingdom has not been established yet. When he returns he will establish his kingdom.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matt. 25:31, 32).

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom" (2 Tim. 4:1).

drmmjr said:

Oh yes, Jesus has resurrected. But the resurrection that will happen at his second coming hasn't happened yet. That is the resurrection I speak of. I don't doubt that Jesus is King and that he has a kingdom, it's just that the kingdom has not been established yet. When he returns he will establish his kingdom.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matt. 25:31, 32).

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom" (2 Tim. 4:1).

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So now what about those who were ressurected when Christ rose from the dead? Where are they?

IamAdopted said:

So now what about those who were ressurected when Christ rose from the dead? Where are they?

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That's a good question. Perhaps they were resurrected in much the same way as Lazarus. Not resurrected to eternal life, but just brought back to life. No matter how you look at it, they were on earth and not in heaven.

drmmjr said:

That's a good question. Perhaps they were resurrected in much the same way as Lazarus. Not resurrected to eternal life, but just brought back to life. No matter how you look at it, they were on earth and not in heaven.

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Act 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Act 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.




Hbr 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.



The idea is that Jesus took the resurrected with Him as a kind of firstfruits...the "king's share".

Amo 7:1This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested and just as the second crop was coming up.