Trinity? No.
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Agree! I can find many scriptures where Jesus claims to be the Son of God but not God.
LouisBooth what is your interpretation for John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in you Law, I have said you are gods.' If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came- and the Scripture cannot be broken- what about the one who the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blashemy because I said, ' I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does." But if I do it, ev3en though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
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Defender of the Faith 777
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OK, where from the Bible is the Trinity? You're kidding right?
Explain to me:
Colossians 2:9
then
Titus 2:11-13
then John 20:28
Acts 20:28
John 1:1 and 14
Mark 2:5-7 (forgiving sins from a stranger who sinned against God)
Luke 4:12 (when Satan tempts Him, He says, "Don't tempt God" (paraphrased)
John 8:58-59
Romans 9:5
and Hebrews 1:8
in the OT
Isaiah 9:6 and
Deuteronomy 6:4 (Shema creed- read literal Hebrew)
Explain to me:
Colossians 2:9
then
Titus 2:11-13
then John 20:28
Acts 20:28
John 1:1 and 14
Mark 2:5-7 (forgiving sins from a stranger who sinned against God)
Luke 4:12 (when Satan tempts Him, He says, "Don't tempt God" (paraphrased)
John 8:58-59
Romans 9:5
and Hebrews 1:8
in the OT
Isaiah 9:6 and
Deuteronomy 6:4 (Shema creed- read literal Hebrew)
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Please someone answer me even if it is not LouisBooth. Why at this point does Jesus not say he is God instead of Saying He is the Son of God. And tell me is there anything against believing that Jesus is the Son of God???? Jesus said he is the Son of God so what is wrong with taking Him for his word??? I can see that saying Jesus is God could be against scripture but saying Jesus is the Son of God how could this possible be wrong or need corrected why is it so important that we believe in a Trinity Doctrine???
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Defender of the Faith 777
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Messenger, I thought I was writing the verses for someone else. I guess they were for you then. Well, it is not necessarily important to believe in "dcotrines" they are just how we organize theology. We believe in the unity of God because the Bible says so. And we believe in the Bible because God said so. And we all believe in God.
But explain the first two at least.
But explain the first two at least.
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John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Jesus and God the Father are one. I would say that this qualifies as Jesus saying He is God, which He is.
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Titus 2:13 says the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ it does not say "The great God our Savior Jesus Christ" Note the word AND meaning also not the same???
John 20:28 also uses the word AND
John 20:31 BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; AND BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME.( WHY DOES IT NOT SAY FOR US TO BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD INSTEAD OF THE SON OF GOD???)
ACTS 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Shost hath made you overseers, to fee the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. ( I would also call my child my flesh and blood so I don't see what your getting at here and how you interpete this to mean that Jesus is God instead of the Son of God)
Jesus is God's only begotten Son. Jesus lived his life for his Father and died so that we might live. I am not going to argue against the trinity. We are to live our lives in love giving to one another and by the way we live shine our light so that others might see. The arguing seems to just take times and go in circle true wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit. I pray I read my bible and most importantly I try and be still and listen. The Holy Spirit will guide us and the Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth. What is in the heart is what matters. Love one another. Love God with all your heart soul and mind. Love God with all your being. If you have this and can hear the Holy Spirit guiding you your on the right path. I'm headed down the right path. I will never have all the answers in this life time but I have the Holy Spirit and Jesus as my Savior and I love God and I feel the guidance and love and try my best to follow the commandments so I am certain I am on the right path. I have spiritual wisdom spirtiual certainty and my spirit is content. I pray that you all have this as well. Love and God Bless you. Peace to you and yours.
John 20:28 also uses the word AND
John 20:31 BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; AND BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME.( WHY DOES IT NOT SAY FOR US TO BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD INSTEAD OF THE SON OF GOD???)
ACTS 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Shost hath made you overseers, to fee the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. ( I would also call my child my flesh and blood so I don't see what your getting at here and how you interpete this to mean that Jesus is God instead of the Son of God)
Jesus is God's only begotten Son. Jesus lived his life for his Father and died so that we might live. I am not going to argue against the trinity. We are to live our lives in love giving to one another and by the way we live shine our light so that others might see. The arguing seems to just take times and go in circle true wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit. I pray I read my bible and most importantly I try and be still and listen. The Holy Spirit will guide us and the Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth. What is in the heart is what matters. Love one another. Love God with all your heart soul and mind. Love God with all your being. If you have this and can hear the Holy Spirit guiding you your on the right path. I'm headed down the right path. I will never have all the answers in this life time but I have the Holy Spirit and Jesus as my Savior and I love God and I feel the guidance and love and try my best to follow the commandments so I am certain I am on the right path. I have spiritual wisdom spirtiual certainty and my spirit is content. I pray that you all have this as well. Love and God Bless you. Peace to you and yours.
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
There is also a verse were Jesus says Father let them be one as you and I are one???? So are we included in the Trinity??? NO this goes in circles. Jesus is the Son of God. Sorry I'm not sure of the verse but it is in the Bible I'll look it up if you don't know which verse I am speaking of. Trinity I am not sure of. Jesus is God's Son this I am certain. Love and God Bless. Peace to you and yours.
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
I could argue both sides. For trinity or against trinity. There is verses leading both ways. We each veiw things a little differently. What is important is how we love God. That God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the ones/one we are looking to for guidance. Doctrines are confusing and they are not absolutely without flaw. If trinity is how you see God or not I don't believe this matters. What matters is that you give your life to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. I prefer to say Jesus is our Savior our guide who lived His life so that we would understand how and gave his life so that we might have eternal life. God is the almighty our maker our God. The Holy Spirit is our guide. But does this say it all probably not. If Jesus is God Yet God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is God well then Jesus is God in Flesh the Holy Spirit is God in Spirit and God the Father is??? Is God the Father Spirit or Flesh or what??? See it just gets too hard to comprehend for me. I know the feeling in my heart and soul. I know the feeling and the guidance I have is real and I know that to be God or the Holy Spirit. I know Jesus died for me. I know to love I am learning more each day what it truely means to give my life to God but trinity just seems to be only a 1/2 answer with a big ? mark at the end. Is it really important to argue for or against trinity??? Seems this is just a big circle that goes round and round and I can see both sides but which one is right? I thought I understood at a time. I thought your verses should trinity was so but verses after verses state that Jesus is Gods Son and no verses have Jesus saying He is God. Jesus and God are one in Spirit and truth. We can have the spirit and the truth but we can't be God. Jesus is at the right hand of God but God the Father and Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 for 1 goal one purpose. Maybe this is what the trinity trys to say??? Anyway Peace to you and yours. Sorry if I only added to the confusion. In all we do pray we must pray for guidance along the way and walk in the way of Jesus not of man and with the Holy Spirit as our guide we will have contentment. When I try to logically figure out God it leads me to confusion. My Soul is content with my spiritual knowledge of God the logical figuring out of the trinity and Godhead leads me to confusion. Thanks for the verses. Love and God Bless.
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TwinCrier,
Jesus did NOT lie about being 'one with the Father.' Jesus is 'one with the Father' in purpose, judgment and in caring for the sheep.
Jesus accepted worship because he worshiped the Father in spirit and in TRUTH. And the TRUTH is, God COMMANDS angels to worship Jesus (Heb. 1:6) and COMMANDS that EVERY knee should BOW at his name (Phil. 2:10). God the Father SEEKS true worshipers to worship Him in spirit and in TRUTH (John 4:23).
Jesus NEVER taught that he is God in the flesh. Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3, 1).
Ed
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Stormy/Messsenger,
In the following verse, who do you think is the "ONE who ALONE is God?"
John 5:44 TEV: "You like to receive praise from one another, but you do NOT try to win praise from the ONE who ALONE is God: how, then, can you believe me?"
In the following versesyou will NOTE that in order to REMAIN in the LOVE of Christ, we must OBEY his COMMANDS.
John 15:9-10 Ibid.[/]: "I LOVE you just as the Father LOVES me: REMAIN in my LOVE. If you OBEY my COMMANDS, you will REMAIN in my LOVE, just as I have OBEYED my Father's COMMANDS and REMAIN in His LOVE."
The Trinity doctrine is one of the man-made traditions of men that so-called professing "Christians" teach for doctrine. Their worship of God is in vain.
John 8:40: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN..."
John 17:1, 3: "Father, the hour has come...And this is ETERNAL LIFE, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..."
Which means OBEYING Christ's COMMANDS!
Ed
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Agree Ed. I fear man is following man instead of God. We don't have all the answers but God promises if we seek we will find. The trinity debate goes round in circles. What you believe to be true about God and Jesus, Ed I believe to be true. To love is to keep the commandments and to love. I believe even those who believe in trinity can do this. They love God and love Jesus so much that they see them as one. The trinity is a doctrine that although it may be flawed I see no reason salvation and love would be based around the belief or disbelief of this doctrine. Jesus is God's only begotten son. When we accept Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit which guides us that is why our works are not ours but God's just as Jesus' works are God's. This is hard to put into logic the answers lie in the heart in the spirit but when trying to put it all down on paper into a trinity doctrine it gets confusing because heavenly things are beyond our ability to put perfectly into words because we aren't perfect. Jesus does the will of his Father. We should do the will of God and walk like Jesus. Jesus said if you don't believe in him believe him by his works. Jesus showed us the way. Jesus showed us to make our point and if people didn't listen to brush off our feet and walk away. Arguing is for fools. Anyone truely seeking God will find God. God yes Jesus yes Holy Spirit yes Trinity....what does it really matter. Put your faith in God not the doctrines of man. Love and God Bless.
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Let me ask you Messenger. And please be HONEST with me , okay? Do you believe that John 8:40 and John 17:3 are DOCTRINES of Christ?
In John 8:40, Jesus TEACHES that he is a MAN. And in John 17:3, Jesus TEACHES that the Father is the ONLY true God.
Does the Trinity doctrine ABIDE or STAY in these DOCTRINES or TEACHINGS of Christ? Yes or No, Messenger.
Apostle Paul wrote that anyone who does NOT abide or stay in the DOCTRINE or TEACHING of Christ does NOT have God (2 John 9).
Trinitarians can LOVE all they want BUT according to the Bible, they do NOT have God. Anyone who does NOT have God will NOT be saved. Don't you agree?
How can one say he accepts Jesus and receives the Holy Spirit when one does NOT abide in his doctrine? Do you say of one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ a believer of Christ?
God COMMANDS us to LISTEN to Jesus (Matt. 17:5). Does this mean we do NOT have to BELIEVE Jesus abd OBEY what he SAYS? Jesus says anyone who does NOT believe him does NOT have life (John 3:36). He is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).
Jesus says, "believe in God, believe ALSO in me" (John 14:1). You want to WALK like Jesus? Then, be HUMBLE and become OBEDIENT to God's COMMANDS and to Jesus' DOCTRINES.
Jresus says, "But why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord' and do NOT do the THINGS which I say" (Luke 6:46)?
I do NOT go after specific people to tell them to listen to my posts Messenger. Neither do I argue with them because you're right, arguing is for fools. I only post REPLIES to their posts. If they don't believe what the Bible teaches, that's their problem. They can go away from my threads and never come back.
But if they come back to me to INSIST on their FALSE belief, I stand READY and WILLING to DEFEND the doctrines of God and of Christ.
To those who truly seek the true path to salvation, KNOWING who the true God is MATTERS. God will PUNISH those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess. 1:8-9).
Now, tell me HONESTLY Messenger, is the Trinity a doctrine of God or a man-made doctrine? Is the doctrine that Jesus is a MAN and the Father is the ONLY true God, a man-made doctrine or doctrine of God?
You CANNOT have it both ways Messenger. You have to leave one doctrine and FOLLOW Jesus as one would leave father and mother to FOLLOW Jesus.
Ed
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"Trinitarians can LOVE all they want BUT according to the Bible, they do NOT have God. Anyone who does NOT have God will NOT be saved. Don't you agree?"
So ed what did your wife say when you said you like to kill and eat kids? See how biased questions can be? God is trinity we have shown you that over and over but you don't want to believe the bible.
So ed what did your wife say when you said you like to kill and eat kids? See how biased questions can be? God is trinity we have shown you that over and over but you don't want to believe the bible.
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Where did you get the idea that I told my wife I like to kill and eat kids? Your question is not only biased. It is libelous as well.
You say I don't want to believe the Bible. What Bible are you referring to?
My KJV Bible says God is ONE (Is. 44:8; Is. 45:5-6; Is. 46:9; 1 Cor. 8:6) My KJV Bible says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). My KJV Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40).
Your Bible says God is Trinity. Please tell me what version your Bible is and would you be kind enough to show me the verse which says that God is Trinty?
Ed
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LouisBooth
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"It is libelous as well. "
As was yours, that's the point.
"My KJV Bible says God is ONE "
As does the trinity docterine.
"My KJV Bible says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)"
As does trinity docterine. There is only one true God three in one and one in three, thus that is a true statement.
"My KJV Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40)."
As does trinity docterine, but not JUST a man.
As was yours, that's the point.
"My KJV Bible says God is ONE "
As does the trinity docterine.
"My KJV Bible says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)"
As does trinity docterine. There is only one true God three in one and one in three, thus that is a true statement.
"My KJV Bible also says that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40)."
As does trinity docterine, but not JUST a man.
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Does it? The Trinity says "God is ONE in THREE 'persons.' These THREE 'persons' ARE God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
How many times is God mentioned in the Trinity doctrine? Is it ONE or THREE? Are these 'persons' ONE and the SAME? The Trinity says NO.
Therefore, common sense dictates these THREE 'persons' (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirits) are in truth and in fact, THREE Gods in ONE God according to the Trinity doctrine.
The Trinity says the only one true God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
As any RATIONAL man can SEE, this is NOT the same as saying God the Father ALONE is the ONLY ONE true God.
"A MAN" is NOT the same as saying "not JUST a man."Jesus says, "but now you seek to kill ME, a MAN..." The Trinity ADDS, "but NOT just a man."
Any RATIONAL man can SEE that the Trinity doctrine is FALSE!
Ed
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Jesus and God do have a oneness. One in Spirit and Truth. We also can be one in Spirit and Truth but we can't be God. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Jesus is our link to God.
If Jesus is God how can Jesus have a God?
Epesians 2:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened: that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in heavenly places.
The trinity only has a few verses but when reading the whole Bible and reading it in context you find that trinity must ignore so many verses that say who Jesus is and who God is and what the Holy Spirit is. They are one in purpose and truth. They work together but to just say they are trinity I believe doesn't give them justice. God is not Trinity you can't make a man made doctrine and say that is what they are. When researching trinity you will find they don't really claim to know exactly but they take a few verses and claim them to mean that they are one and then ends with a big ? mark.
I believe Ed, myself and people who believe in Trinity believe God / Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One in Spirit and Truth. I believe we know that through Jesus we can be one in Spirit and Truth. This is where we agree.
We differ in trinity saying that one makes the 3 one. Jesus is above us. Jesus is not only a man. But does this make Jesus less than God? God has given us Jesus as a link to him. Without Jesus we are doomed. But without God nothing exists. Without the Holy Spirit to guide us we are left following Satan. The 3 are all more important than words can discribe but why must we put the 3 in a trinity package and say they are one. I believe this is so we can believe we have something figured out but most who say they believe in the trinity doctrine are believing a doctrine they don't fully understand and therefore putting their faith in man. I fear our man made doctrines can never give justice. Seek and you shall find. Read the Bible and see for yourself. Renew your spirit through the Salvation of Jesus Christ.
For those who believe Trinity is such elaborate on why this is so. And if Jesus and God are one why does Jesus pray to God? Why does Jesus call God his Father? Why would God confuse us? I hear time and again that God is not the God of confussion but of truth. How can we ignore all the scriptures saying they work together as one but each with different for lack of better words "jobs"? Why hold on so tight to a trinity doctrine and say this is what God/ Jesus / Holy Spirit is? Can you quote the doctrine? I would definately research a doctrine before putting it above what the Bible teaches. I would advise you to test this doctrine though the Holy Book. Nothing should be added or taken away from the Bible. The Bible has the answers and I am afraid the Trinity Doctrine does go against the Bible and is not the full truth. When something is not all of the truth but only contains partial does this make it a false doctrine? I fear it may. But am not certain. Keep seeking the truth. Read the Bible and pray. May God Jesus and the Holy Spirit be your guide.
Love and God Bless. Peace to you and yours. We can all be one in love spirit and truth.
If Jesus is God how can Jesus have a God?
Epesians 2:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened: that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in heavenly places.
The trinity only has a few verses but when reading the whole Bible and reading it in context you find that trinity must ignore so many verses that say who Jesus is and who God is and what the Holy Spirit is. They are one in purpose and truth. They work together but to just say they are trinity I believe doesn't give them justice. God is not Trinity you can't make a man made doctrine and say that is what they are. When researching trinity you will find they don't really claim to know exactly but they take a few verses and claim them to mean that they are one and then ends with a big ? mark.
I believe Ed, myself and people who believe in Trinity believe God / Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One in Spirit and Truth. I believe we know that through Jesus we can be one in Spirit and Truth. This is where we agree.
We differ in trinity saying that one makes the 3 one. Jesus is above us. Jesus is not only a man. But does this make Jesus less than God? God has given us Jesus as a link to him. Without Jesus we are doomed. But without God nothing exists. Without the Holy Spirit to guide us we are left following Satan. The 3 are all more important than words can discribe but why must we put the 3 in a trinity package and say they are one. I believe this is so we can believe we have something figured out but most who say they believe in the trinity doctrine are believing a doctrine they don't fully understand and therefore putting their faith in man. I fear our man made doctrines can never give justice. Seek and you shall find. Read the Bible and see for yourself. Renew your spirit through the Salvation of Jesus Christ.
For those who believe Trinity is such elaborate on why this is so. And if Jesus and God are one why does Jesus pray to God? Why does Jesus call God his Father? Why would God confuse us? I hear time and again that God is not the God of confussion but of truth. How can we ignore all the scriptures saying they work together as one but each with different for lack of better words "jobs"? Why hold on so tight to a trinity doctrine and say this is what God/ Jesus / Holy Spirit is? Can you quote the doctrine? I would definately research a doctrine before putting it above what the Bible teaches. I would advise you to test this doctrine though the Holy Book. Nothing should be added or taken away from the Bible. The Bible has the answers and I am afraid the Trinity Doctrine does go against the Bible and is not the full truth. When something is not all of the truth but only contains partial does this make it a false doctrine? I fear it may. But am not certain. Keep seeking the truth. Read the Bible and pray. May God Jesus and the Holy Spirit be your guide.
Love and God Bless. Peace to you and yours. We can all be one in love spirit and truth.
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Ed do you believe Jesus was "Just" a man? I'm not sure if this is what you are saying. I do not believe Jesus was "Just a man." Jesus was God's only begotten son. Man is a physical state not a spiritual state. Jesus was much more than just a man but this does not mean that Jesus was God. Jesus is our lord savior no other man could take the place of Jesus in this Jesus can't be considered "Just" a man.
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Messenger,
When talking with Trinitarians, there is no mistaking what they mean when they say "but not JUST a man." They mean that Jesus is a MAN but he is ALSO God. Thus, a simple YES answer to "but not JUST a man" would mean that you are agreeing to their belief that Jesus is ALSO God. I have been in these forums long enough to know how Trinitarian minds work.
I'd rather be accused of not honoring Jesus by saying "he is just a man" than be misunderstood as a believer of the FALSE doctrine that Jesus is ALSO God.
Ed
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