Who is responsible?

Blackhawk · Oct 18, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
Yes and No. I hate answers like that

Yes I hate answers like that also!

We can resist and ruin our very short lives on earth. Soloman is a good example.
We can also be brought to our knees by our circumstances. God did this to several men in scripture.

We know the fruits of the Spirit and the cost of the flesh (Galations)
If we live by Spirit we will have Joy, Peace ............and so on
But yes, we can resist and quench the Spirit but I can find no example of this action taken by man overturning the adoption into the family of God.

Blessings [/B]

Okay I think we are on the same wave length here.  I think I should of said that we will eventually believe and become saved.  I think that it is clear that we can resist salvation for a time period but God will eventually get us to the place that we will no longer resist if we are of the elect. 

 

 

 

eldermike · Oct 18, 2002

It could also be that God elects some and then dosn't use them for a time. That drives legalists' nuts. But God is just bigger than we are.

Reformationist · Oct 18, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Don,

I don't think we can say for sure what the case is.

What case? :scratch:

Blackhawk · Oct 18, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
It could also be that God elects some and then dosn't use them for a time. That drives legalists' nuts. But God is just bigger than we are.

Yes He is and I am so glad that He is.  I got a B on my Church History test.  I am glad that He can remember better than me. 

Reformationist · Oct 18, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
It's the same Spirit IMHO, but we can resist as we see in many examples in the Bible. Jonah comes to mind.

Being a disobedient saved person is different that and unregenerate person.  The non-elect are subject the the law of sin and death.  However, the saved are subject to a force within them, that is the law of sin (no "and death").

I can adopt a child and the child can resist me also but it's still my child.
Blessings

Are you saying that you think all people have been adopted into the family of God and are the children of God? :scratch:

  Because if not, I don't see the parallel.  I agree that even the saved are rebellious.  But, there is a huge difference between being disobedient and being unregenerate.

God bless

DaveKerwin · Oct 18, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
What case?

I do not believe we can say for sure what the truth is. I can see why people would believe either predestination or free will, but what I do not see is how it makes a difference in what I am doing with my life. Regardless of what the absolute truth is on this issue, nothing changes. I still decide whether or not I get out of bed when then alarm clock goes off, and I still decide whether or not I obey God's commands. This is a non-essential of the faith, so I will not fight for either side.

eldermike · Oct 18, 2002

Are you saying that you think all people have been adopted into the family of God and are the children of God? Because if not, I don't see the parallel. I agree that even the saved are rebellious. But, there is a huge difference between being disobedient and being unregenerate.

No, I used that example because adoption is a selection process. Not all are adopted, the adopted are chosen by the adopter, it's not in thier control to be adopted.

It's not a very good example actually, except for that we also want all unadopted children to be adopted but it's not up to us to make that happen, it's by the grace of the ones doing the adopting. The word is biblical and I assume it has always had the same meaning and pratice.

I wanted to show that once an adoption takes place rebellion of the adopted dosn't change their status, they are still adopted.

Blessings

Reformationist · Oct 20, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
No, I used that example because adoption is a selection process. Not all are adopted, the adopted are chosen by the adopter, it's not in thier control to be adopted.

It's not a very good example actually, except for that we also want all unadopted children to be adopted but it's not up to us to make that happen, it's by the grace of the ones doing the adopting. The word is biblical and I assume it has always had the same meaning and pratice.

I wanted to show that once an adoption takes place rebellion of the adopted dosn't change their status, they are still adopted.

Blessings

Oh, okay.  Thanks.

  That sounds much better!

God bless

Blackwing · Oct 20, 2002

This is a good thread

Thanks to all who replied, i learned a lot reading from this

God bless

Ben johnson · Oct 23, 2002

Are you trying to get Ben going again?

Oh wait, I think I hear him coming now.

But yes the source is completely God...

Really? "For by grace through grace have you been saved"? Or "by grace through faith have you been saved"? Which?

If saving-faith is bequeathed by God, unilaterally and in disregard to us, then it is HIS faith and not ours. THerefore it reads, "for by grace through grace have you been saved..."

and it is not God's will that all be saved. Oh my gosh I said it

Click to expand...

Scripture? Please address WHICH "God's-will" you mean---THELEMA or BOULEMA.

Questions:
1. How do you accomodate 1Tim2:4?
2. If you embrace that "God WILLS for some to be saved", by default He must WILL (will/decree, by action or by indifference) the rest to condemnation. Can you show me this attitude in Scripture?

Reformationist · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Really? "For by grace through grace have you been saved"? Or "by grace through faith have you been saved"? Which?

Hey Ben.  It is the grace of God that saves.  Faith is just the vehicle that God uses to impart His saving grace to His elect.  And since man, in his fallen state, has no faith in God then the faith has to come from an outside source, namely God.  Since this faith is effectual unto salvation, it is obvious that He does not give this saving faith to all mankind.  "Having faith" is not a decision we make.  Faith is not a thing that is in us after the Fall.  Even the Apostles recognized that God is responsible for their faith:

Luke 17:5
And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith."

So the only realization you have to make to understand this is that man fell from grace and had no faith in God after the Fall, the faith that God gives man is sufficient and effectual to bring about salvation, and since not all will be saved, then not all received the faith from God that saves.

God bless

Gabriel · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson

2. If you embrace that "God WILLS for some to be saved", by default He must WILL (will/decree, by action or by indifference) the rest to condemnation. Can you show me this attitude in Scripture?

Romans 9:11-16  '(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or any evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."  As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?  Certainly not!  For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him who wills or runs, it is of God who shows mercy."

This scripture clearly shows that not only does God ELECT some of of us, but some of us He does not.  This choice has nothing to do with us, it is of Him as He WILLS.

I have given up on trying to change your mind Ben.  I only answer you occasionally to try to undo some of the damage you do to the weaker brother.  You are obviously very intelligent and you make a good sounding arguement.  When I can stay awake through the whole reply.  The problem is you want to take the ultimate credit for your salvation.  From your prespective Christ is not sufficient, for without your will to choose Him, your salvation cannot be secured.  Give up all of yourself to God, Ben.  Stop trying to take the credit for something you did not do.  John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."  Of course you will reply that Christ was talking to His disciples, not to us.  To which I would ask, "Are we then not responsible to "love one another" as commanded in the next verse (17)?"  

Reformationist · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by Gabriel
Romans 9:11-16  '(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or any evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."  As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?  Certainly not!  For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him who wills or runs, it is of God who shows mercy."

This scripture clearly shows that not only does God ELECT some of of us, but some of us He does not.  This choice has nothing to do with us, it is of Him as He WILLS.

I have given up on trying to change your mind Ben.  I only answer you occasionally to try to undo some of the damage you do to the weaker brother.  You are obviously very intelligent and you make a good sounding arguement.  When I can stay awake through the whole reply.  The problem is you want to take the ultimate credit for your salvation.  From your prespective Christ is not sufficient, for without your will to choose Him, your salvation cannot be secured.  Give up all of yourself to God, Ben.  Stop trying to take the credit for something you did not do.  John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."  Of course you will reply that Christ was talking to His disciples, not to us.  To which I would ask, "Are we then not responsible to "love one another" as commanded in the next verse (17)?"  

Great post Gabe, as usual.

God bless,

Don

paulewog · Oct 23, 2002

My answer to the very first post is, Yes.

But ultimately, God. "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you."

Ben johnson · Oct 24, 2002

This scripture clearly shows that not only does God ELECT some of of us, but some of us He does not. This choice has nothing to do with us, it is of Him as He WILLS.

If thats true, then there is undeniable contradiction with verses like, "Therefore be all the more diligent to make certain of your calling and election; for as long as you practice these things you will never stumble, and IN THIS WAY the EISODOS-GATE of Heaven will be abundantly provided to you. BUT he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted and has forgotten his purification from former sins" (1Pet4-11)---but you dispute Peter's words, don't you?

"We don't hafta make sure of our ELECTION for it is GOD who has elected us in SPITE of our belief (or before our belief), and it is not POSSIBLE to forget purification, but if we DO lose these things the gates of Heaven will still be provided but not as abundantly".

How can I convince you that the above statment &#094 is unscriptural?

I have given up on trying to change your mind Ben. I only answer you occasionally to try to undo some of the damage you do to the weaker brother.

Do we not agree on the foundations of salvation? That it is receiving Christ as Lord (master!) and Savior, being "born again" (in Christ, a new creation Gal2:20, 2Cor5:17)? I think we do. Now, by my belief in "diligence and perseverance" I am required to spend time with God and grow close to Him---where is the penalty for my belief if I am wrong? ALL THAT RESULTS is a stronger, closer walk with Him!

...but if YOU are wrong in YOUR consideration, then the risk of believing in any "OSAS" view, is ETERNAL D*MNATION!

Which view poses the greater risk of harm?

But ultimately, God. "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you."

John15:16. Yes; and, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." Eph1:4

...and yet, in the same chapter of John, verse 15:16, "If anyone does not abide in Me he is cut off ...and cast into the fire." 15:6 And, "God has chosen us from the beginning for salvation through Spirit-sanctification AND THROUGH FAITH IN THE TRUTH!"

I do not accept that "FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION" is a second dispensation of grace. "FAITH comes from HEARING---how shall they believe if they do not hear?" Rm10

"For by GRACE have you been saved THROUGH FAITH"---If Paul had understood "faith-to-salvation" as being a dispensation of grace, then how would Eph2:8 have been written so? It would not. Paul would have written, "For by grace have you been saved, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." But instead, Paul says, "For by grace through faith have you been saved and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God". "THAT" does not exhibit the same gender in the Greek as "FAITH" so Paul did NOT mean "that faith"; "THAT" is "THAT SALVATION"; that salvation, by grace, that is a gift of God, a gift that must be RECEIVED!"

"But as many as RECEIVED CHRIST, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even those who believe in His name!" Jn1:12

How am I not communicating this well enough?

Ben johnson · Oct 24, 2002

This scripture clearly shows that not only does God ELECT some of of us, but some of us He does not. This choice has nothing to do with us, it is of Him as He WILLS.

BTW, do you know the difference between "boulema" (DECREE-will) and "THELEMA" (DESIRE-will)? Where is the Scripture that says, "God DECREES salvation for ANYONE?"

I read rather, "This is the WILL of God, that anyone who beholds the Son of God and believes on Him may have eternal life." Jn6:40

WILL---thelema...

Reformationist · Oct 24, 2002

Romans 1:22
Professing to be wise, they became fools

Ben johnson · Oct 24, 2002

"Man who stand on head, world is upside-down..."

Reformationist · Oct 24, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Romans 1:22
Professing to be wise, they became fools

By the way Ben, that's not offered as an answer to your question.

Ben johnson · Oct 24, 2002

By the way Ben, that's not offered as an answer to your question.

No, I took it as a personal reference (calling my perspective "of fools"). So I responded, "if you are upside down, then everything you see will be upside down"...

Who is responsible?

Monkey Boy

Pray

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Monkey Boy

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Represent the Most High

Pray

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Music Man With Black Wings(duh...)<img src="http:/

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

Legend

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Legend

Similar threads