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OrthodoxyUSA

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Psalms 51:4 (50:4)

Against Thee, Thee only have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest and prevail when Thou art judged.

According to the Septuagint, Psalm 50 speaks of Christ being judged.

This gives a greatly different understanding of what is being said when compared with the KJV - Masoric text.

Forgive me...:liturgy:
 

mont974x4

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Here's a comparison of a few translations. The numbers are Strong's numbers.

Psa 51:4

(ASV)
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, And be clear when thou judgest.

(ESV)
Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

(KJV+)
Against thee, thee only,905 have I sinned,2398 and done6213 this evil7451 in thy sight:5869 that4616 thou mightest be justified6663 when thou speakest,1696 and be clear2135 when thou judgest.8199

(NAS77)
Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done what is evil in Thy sight, So that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, And blameless when Thou dost judge.

(NASB)
Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.

(NASB+)
Against You, You only905, I have sinned2398 And done6213a what7451a is evil7451a in Your sight5869, So4616 that You are justified6663 when You speak1696 And blameless2135 when You judge8199.

(YLT)
Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done the evil thing in Thine eyes, So that Thou art righteous in Thy words, Thou art pure in Thy judging.




Given the context I would say that it is Him who judges, not that He is being judged. Especially with everything else in Scripture about Him being the judge.
 
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mont974x4

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Psalms 51:4 (50:4)

Against Thee, Thee only have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest and prevail when Thou art judged.

According to the Septuagint, Psalm 50 speaks of Christ being judged.

This gives a greatly different understanding of what is being said when compared with the KJV - Masoric text.

Forgive me...:liturgy:
What translation is that from?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Here's a comparison of a few translations. The numbers are Strong's numbers.

Psa 51:4

(ASV) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, And be clear when thou judgest.

(ESV) Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

(KJV+) Against thee, thee only,905 have I sinned,2398 and done6213this evil7451 in thy sight:5869 that4616 thou mightest be justified6663 when thou speakest,1696and be clear2135 when thou judgest.8199

(NAS77) Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done what is evil in Thy sight, So that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, And blameless when Thou dost judge.

(NASB) Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.

(NASB+) Against You, You only905, I have sinned2398 And done6213a what7451a is evil7451a in Your sight5869, So4616 that You are justified6663 when You speak1696 And blameless2135 when You judge8199.

(YLT) Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done the evil thing in Thine eyes, So that Thou art righteous in Thy words, Thou art pure in Thy judging.




Given the context I would say that it is Him who judges, not that He is being judged. Especially with everything else in Scripture about Him being the judge.

All these are translation of the Masoric text... and that is my point.

The Masoric is the text of the OT that was changed many hundreds of years after Christ.

The OT of Christ's time was the Septuagint.

Forgive me...:liturgy:
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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This isn't about Christ at all. It is what is is: a Psalm written by DAVID during HIS repentence. I think you just had a bad translation.

Do you not find Christ all through the Psalms?

Forgive me...:liturgy:
 
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Fireinfolding

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Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Hey Orthodoxy, not sure if Im catching your post correctly, but didnt even Paul quote from there (somewhat so) regarding ones sayings?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Now I know if one says He has not sinned its making God a liar (in saying that) isnt it?

Im wondering if these connect some way though Im not sure how cause Im not sure if Im understanding your post or what the problem is sorta.

Can you help me?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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This isn't about Christ at all. It is what is is: a Psalm written by DAVID during HIS repentence. I think you just had a bad translation.

No so...

The Masoric text is the bad translation.

Actually it's not a bad translation, the Masoric text was changed intentionally.

The Septuagint is the text that Christ used.

Forgive me...:liturgy:
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Hey Orthodoxy, not sure if Im catching your post correctly, but didnt even Paul quote from there (somewhat so) regarding ones sayings?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Now I know if one says He has not sinned its making God a liar (in saying that) isnt it?

Im wondering if these connect some way though Im not sure how cause Im not sure if Im understanding your post or what the problem is sorta.

Can you help me?


:thumbsup:

Forgive me...
 
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Dorothea

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Orthodoxy, I thought this might be interesting to post here.


The Church is not based on the Bible. Rather, the Bible is a product of the Church. For the first few centuries of the Christian era, no one could have put his hands on a single volume called The Bible. In fact, there was no one put his hands on a single volume called The Bible. In fact, there was no agreement regarding which books of Scripture were to be considered accurate and correct, or canonical. Looking back over history, there were various lists of the canonical books comprising the Bible:
  • The Muratorian Canon (130 AD) cities all the books we considered as parts of the Bible today, except for Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation/Apocalypse
  • Canon 60 of the local Council of Laodicea (364 AD) cited Revelation/Apocalypse
  • A festal Epistle by Saint Athanasius (369 AD) lists all of them.
Even so, there was no official, authoritative canon listing all the books until the Sixth Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople in AD 680. Canon II of that Council ratifies the First through the Fifth Ecumenical Councils, as well as the local councils at Carthage (AD 255), Ancyra (AD 315), Neocaesaria (AD 315), Gangra (AD 340), Antioch (AD 341), Laodicea (AD 364), Sardica (AD 347), Constantinople (AD 394), and Carthage (AD 419). When the Council at Laodicea specified the content of the bible as we know it — 39 years after the First Ecumenical Council (AD 325) and 17 years before the second Ecumenical Council (AD 381) — the Liturgy was pretty much well-defined and established and had been canonized by common usage — the reading from these books. It was not until the invention of the printing press in Western Europe, coinciding with the period of the Protestant Reformation of Western Christianity that The Bible was widely disseminated as a single volume.
When Protestant Western Christians reviewed the canonical books of Scripture, they adopted the Hebrew Canon accepted by the Jews since AD 100. — See The Books of the Old Testament

The so-called Apocrypha, or Deuterocanonical, books were a problem for Jews living after the time of Christ, since they often very clearly prophesy concerning Our Lord, and indicate His divinity. Some of the books were also problematic for both the Jews and the Protestants because they make prophetically evident the special role of the Theotokos in the oikonomia of salvation. In fact, the Orthodox Fathers cite passages quite effectively to discuss the Church's understanding of the role of the Theotokos. Also, the only scriptural reference to praying for the dead is found in a Deuterocanonical book: viz., Maccabees. Not surprisingly, these Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books were rejected from the canon of books indicated in the Jewish Scriptures. This canon was formally pronounced by a rabbinical council at Jamnia, which stated that all canonical Scripture had to have been written: in Palestine, in Hebrew (not Greek), and more then 400 years prior (300 BC) to that time.

In addition, the authorized Hebrew translation was at variance with the accepted Septuagint Greek versions, which had been prepared by 72 translators working in Alexandria Egypt. This is significant, because the Apostles, who were the authors of the New Testament, as well as the early Church Fathers, frequently cite passages only found in the Septuagint (Greek) Old Testament that have significant differences in meaning from the Hebrew. Moreover, they frequently cite passages from the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.

The Holy Scriptures were produced by the Orthodox Church. The Church's holy prophets and Apostles wrote the books contained in the Bible. The Church determined which books were authoritative and belonged in Holy Scripture. The Church preserved and passed on the texts of these Scriptural books. According to tradition, the seventy-two Jewish rabbis and scholars who gave us the Septuagint Greek Old Testament, produced seventy-two identical Greek translations working independently and in insolation from one another. Writing in Greek, the Holy Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude produced the books of the New Testament.


The rest is here:
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bible_texts.html?200717
 
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Fireinfolding

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:thumbsup:

Forgive me...

Hey there Orthodoxy, is there still a question bro?

Im still not sure I even understood the question (if there was one^_^ ) or its still an up in the air thing concerning that verse you first posted?

I'm curious though...Was what you were pointing out in regards to being judged (Him who knew no sin) of men or of God, or "they" (In Him) wherein Paul pulled the context? Did I even word that right? LOL

Can you tell Im confused?^_^
 
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GeratTzedek

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The Septuagint

The Psalms that Christ used.

Forgive me...
Ah, but we all know the Septuagint is not the best translation, although it was an adequate translation for the early church. And it also means you are giving a translation from a translation, Hebrew to Greek to English... LIke playing telephone, the more steps removed you are from the original, the more likely you are to hear it wrong.

The Septuagint was AROUND during the days of Yeshua. But it was used by Hellenistic Greeks. Not by Yeshua or Jews in Judea. Why in the world would they be using a Greek translation when they had the Hebrew
original?

If you wish, I can ask a Hebrew expert about the tense used. But given the level of scholarship used in contemporary translations, I see no reason to question them.
 
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GeratTzedek

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The KJV was translated from the Septuagint - not the Masoretic text.
The original King James version is a terrible translation. I love it only because it is so poetic. I thought it was translated from the Vulgate????

I think the NEW KJV is translated from the Masoretic, though.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Ah, but we all know the Septuagint is not the best translation, although it was an adequate translation for the early church. And it also means you are giving a translation from a translation, Hebrew to Greek to English... LIke playing telephone, the more steps removed you are from the original, the more likely you are to hear it wrong.

The Septuagint was AROUND during the days of Yeshua. But it was used by Hellenistic Greeks. Not by Yeshua or Jews in Judea. Why in the world would they be using a Greek translation when they had the Hebrew
original?

If you wish, I can ask a Hebrew expert about the tense used. But given the level of scholarship used in contemporary translations, I see no reason to question them.

The Hebrew texts were destroyed at the order of the king of Babylon when the Jews were held captive for 400 years.

After their release, three centuries before Christ, 72 men (Septuagint means "of the seventy) re-wrote the texts verbatim that had been memorized and used verbally during their captivity.

The fact that these seventy men all agreed to the exact same translation was deemed a miracle by the Jews and was therby accepted as being given by God.

The Massoretic manuscripts were written hundreds of years after Christ in an effort to stop the spread of Christianity.

From: The History of the LXX

The Septuagint is the ancient translation of the Old Testament into Greek by the Jews. The Pentateuch, the central core of the Old Testament canon, was translated first, and, according to the Letter of Aristeas this was done during the rule of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-247 B.C.). The Letter informs us that this translation was made in Alexandria by 70 or to be more accurate 72 Jewish scholars, and that is how it received the name "Septuagint" (LXX). This title, though it
originally applied only to the translation of the Pentateuch, was eventually used for the whole of the Greek version of the Old Testament. That is because the translation of the Pentateuch was followed by that of the other books.

The LXX was a Jewish work and was held in high esteem by the Jews until its use by the Christians became very important. According to the Letter of Aristeas, the translation of the Pentateuch was accorded official recognition by the Jewish Community in Alexandria, and Jewish writers such as Philo and Josephus used it
primarily and often exclusively. The LXX was of the greatest importance to the preservation and expansion of Judaism. The Jews who, after the beginning of the Dispersion, lived far from the land of Israel, came to be less and less familiar with the Hebrew language, so
they needed something in a more or less universal language. Greek served that purpose, and the LXX enabled them to remain faithful to the Law and the rest of the Sacred Scriptures, and (not of least importance) enabled those who were not Jews to study these
writings.

Forgive me...:liturgy:
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Hey there Orthodoxy, is there still a question bro?

Im still not sure I even understood the question (if there was one^_^ ) or its still an up in the air thing concerning that verse you first posted?

I'm curious though...Was what you were pointing out in regards to being judged (Him who knew no sin) of men or of God, or "they" (In Him) wherein Paul pulled the context? Did I even word that right? LOL

Can you tell Im confused?^_^

There is no question...

Your quoting of St. Paul who was himself quoting the SEPTUAGINT was right on target!

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Forgive me...
 
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humbledbyhim

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There is no question...

Your quoting of St. Paul who was himself quoting the SEPTUAGINT was right on target!

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Forgive me...
Yes, It seems that Orhtodoxy has the right idea. God is judged every day. Every day, people determine whether God has been fair or just in his actions and words. Some people judge God as a cruel dictator not worthy of worship, and others recognize the folly of that reasoning. These scriptures only show that When God is judged by man, regardless of man's conclusion, God is right. It has nothing to do with Christ being Judged in the manner that we will be judged. It means God/Christ will be justified even when men judge him. Look at Romans chapter 3 verse 5. A man is asking a question, "Is God unrighteous?" Some would say yes, thereby judging God, but Paul acknowledges that such reasoning is foolish.
 
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