Anto Zionosts behold.

Carey · Nov 16, 2007

Romans 11 : 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited:
( just because you got your land back in 1948 )

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
( and that has been going on for about 2000 years now )

26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
( after Jesus returns )
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
( during the 1000 tear reign )

27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
( when he died on the cross )

Romans 11 : 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable
(like the gift of land through the Abrahamic covenant )

The scriptures in the OT about the land started being fulfilled in 1948 but Israel still does not accept Jesus.
But Abrahams covenant had nothing to do with salvation
So......

Romans 11 :
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make ( Israel )envious.

Now you who think you are better than the secular Zionist Government of Israel and don't think they should have the land God and the Bible promised them they got back in 1948 a warning ....

Romans 11 : 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Here is another reference to Israel or Jerusalem.
You say all this is fulfilled??

In revleations 20 : 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.

where is the city he loves they on earth surrounded??
When does this happen??

Revelations 16 : 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

where are these kings going to have the battle??

Revelations 16 : 16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Where is armageddon??

Rev 16 : 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.
21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men.

When did these things happen???
it seems it would be recorded in history 100 ponud hail all cities on earth collapsing at once.

Revelations 13 : 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

When has anyone had authority over ever people and language on earth??

Micah68 · Nov 17, 2007

God is in control of history (Daniel 11:2-31)

Now then, I tell you the truth Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time. (Daniel 11:2, 35)

Daniel tells us this is the truth and that everything will happen at the appointed time. Everything that happens in history is on Gods Radar Screen. This is the reason for all of the detail in Daniel 11. This is 6th Century BC but the vision contains detailed information about the rise and fall of empires up to the time of Jesus Christ. There is so much detail in here, the first 31 verses read more like history than prophecy. But that should not surprise us because that is what authentic prophecy is - history foretold. Now I dont want this to turn into a history lesson but lets just skim through these verses:

The Collapse of the Persian Empire (11:1-2)
The Persian king who invaded Greece was Xerxes, who reigned 485-464 B.C. The three kings who preceded him after the death of Cyrus were Cambyses (529-523), Smerdis (523-522) and Darius the Persian (522-485). In 490 BC, Xerxes father, Darius Hystaspes, had suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Greeks. Determined to avenge his father, Xerxes raised up a large army, stirring up all of Asia against the tiny nation of Greece. Finally, commanding an estimated 3 million men, he invaded Greece, capturing Athens and burning the Acropolis. But then his navy was defeated at Salamis and his army at Plataea and Xerxes retreated to his capital. Thirty years later, Greece would force Xerxes successor to sign a treaty granting them a free status. Yet even that would not satisfy the Grecian desire for revenge. 150 years later, Alexander would destroy the Persian Empire, rallying his troops by reminding them of the invasion of Xerxes.

The Coming of Alexander (11:3-4)
The mighty king of verse 3 is Alexander the Great. He literally did "according to his will." Every where he led his armies he led them to victory. But when he died while still in the prime of his life, his kingdom was divided, as the Scripture foretold, to the North, South, East, and West. Also true to the prophecy, none of his posterity reigned after him. He fathered one illegitimate son and one of his wives was expecting a son when he died. Both were murdered.

The Conflict between the North and South (11:5-27)
Although the Greek Empire was split four ways, only the activities of the Ptolemic kingdom (the King of the South) and the Selucid kingdom (the King of the North) had any direct bearing on Israel. Daniel 11 describes their conflicts, their wars and temporary alliances. The kings would change, but the conflict would continue. And caught in the middle was the tiny nation of Israel. A good Study Bible will identify the names of the rulers of the Southern kingdom of Ptolemies and the northern kingdom of the Selucids who competed for control of Palestine.

The Rise of the Prefigured Anti-Christ (11:28-35)

The "contemptable person" (11:21) was none other than Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164) who massacred eighty thousand Jewish men, women and children, robbed the temple of its treasures, sacrificed a pig on the brazen altar, set up an image of Jupiter in the Holy Place, and barred the Jews from offering daily sacrifices (11:31). But notice that despite all the awesome destructive power of this evil despot, Daniel insists, "at the time appointed he will invade" (11:29)and "it will still come at the appointed time." (11:35). As it turned out, after Antiochus departed from Jerusalem, a godly group of Jews, the Maccabeans rose up against Antiochus and ultimately defeated his armies and regained control of Jerusalem. On December 25, 165 BC, they rededicated the Temple. Less than a year later, Antiochus was dead.

The message of Daniel 11:1-35 is this: Nothing happens in history without the knowledge, purpose and will of Almighty God. He is the source of Daniels vision. God is operating from the unique perspective of eternity. And in everything God works for the good of those who love him. (Romans 8:28) So, despite present appearances, and with many contemporary candidates for the role of Anti-Christ, God is in control of history.

Carey · Nov 17, 2007

Micah68 said:
God is in control of history (Daniel 11:2-31)

Now then, I tell you the truth Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time. (Daniel 11:2, 35)

Daniel tells us this is the truth and that everything will happen at the appointed time. Everything that happens in history is on Gods Radar Screen. This is the reason for all of the detail in Daniel 11. This is 6th Century BC but the vision contains detailed information about the rise and fall of empires up to the time of Jesus Christ. There is so much detail in here, the first 31 verses read more like history than prophecy. But that should not surprise us because that is what authentic prophecy is - history foretold. Now I dont want this to turn into a history lesson but lets just skim through these verses:

The Collapse of the Persian Empire (11:1-2)
The Persian king who invaded Greece was Xerxes, who reigned 485-464 B.C. The three kings who preceded him after the death of Cyrus were Cambyses (529-523), Smerdis (523-522) and Darius the Persian (522-485). In 490 BC, Xerxes father, Darius Hystaspes, had suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Greeks. Determined to avenge his father, Xerxes raised up a large army, stirring up all of Asia against the tiny nation of Greece. Finally, commanding an estimated 3 million men, he invaded Greece, capturing Athens and burning the Acropolis. But then his navy was defeated at Salamis and his army at Plataea and Xerxes retreated to his capital. Thirty years later, Greece would force Xerxes successor to sign a treaty granting them a free status. Yet even that would not satisfy the Grecian desire for revenge. 150 years later, Alexander would destroy the Persian Empire, rallying his troops by reminding them of the invasion of Xerxes.

The Coming of Alexander (11:3-4)
The mighty king of verse 3 is Alexander the Great. He literally did "according to his will." Every where he led his armies he led them to victory. But when he died while still in the prime of his life, his kingdom was divided, as the Scripture foretold, to the North, South, East, and West. Also true to the prophecy, none of his posterity reigned after him. He fathered one illegitimate son and one of his wives was expecting a son when he died. Both were murdered.

The Conflict between the North and South (11:5-27)
Although the Greek Empire was split four ways, only the activities of the Ptolemic kingdom (the King of the South) and the Selucid kingdom (the King of the North) had any direct bearing on Israel. Daniel 11 describes their conflicts, their wars and temporary alliances. The kings would change, but the conflict would continue. And caught in the middle was the tiny nation of Israel. A good Study Bible will identify the names of the rulers of the Southern kingdom of Ptolemies and the northern kingdom of the Selucids who competed for control of Palestine.

The Rise of the Prefigured Anti-Christ (11:28-35)

The "contemptable person" (11:21) was none other than Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164) who massacred eighty thousand Jewish men, women and children, robbed the temple of its treasures, sacrificed a pig on the brazen altar, set up an image of Jupiter in the Holy Place, and barred the Jews from offering daily sacrifices (11:31). But notice that despite all the awesome destructive power of this evil despot, Daniel insists, "at the time appointed he will invade" (11:29)and "it will still come at the appointed time." (11:35). As it turned out, after Antiochus departed from Jerusalem, a godly group of Jews, the Maccabeans rose up against Antiochus and ultimately defeated his armies and regained control of Jerusalem. On December 25, 165 BC, they rededicated the Temple. Less than a year later, Antiochus was dead.

The message of Daniel 11:1-35 is this: Nothing happens in history without the knowledge, purpose and will of Almighty God. He is the source of Daniels vision. God is operating from the unique perspective of eternity. And in everything God works for the good of those who love him. (Romans 8:28) So, despite present appearances, and with many contemporary candidates for the role of Anti-Christ, God is in control of history.

I do see where you are partially correct.

But my brother you alwayas seem to over look tese verses.

Matthew 24 : 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Don't fear endtime prophecies God will stregnthen you through whatever it is you fate to go through.

Micah68 · Nov 17, 2007

Carey said:
I do see where you are partially correct.

But my brother you alwayas seem to over look tese verses.

Matthew 24 : 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Don't fear endtime prophecies God will stregnthen you through whatever it is you fate to go through.

Carey, Actually I am a sister, Micah 6:8 has special meaning to me. I think the first century Christians suffer horrendously, I can not think of a more terrifying, gruesome and humiliating way to die than in the Roman arenas. Matt. 24 fits quite well in the 1st century. Carey I have no fear of 'end time prophecy' as my faith is in God and not man's manipulation of scripture. Sorry friend God is so much bigger than this.

Eusebius, The fourth-century church historian refers to the eyewitness accounts of Josephus to show how these predictions were understood as having been fulfilled by AD 70. (257) Writing the Jewish Wars, Josephus links Daniel's prophecy to the desecration of the temple and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 66-70: 'In the same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.' (258) Josephus specifically associates the desecration of the temple and the activities of Jewish Zealots who, between November of AD 67 and the spring of AD 68, used the temple as a military fortress, executed Jewish opponents inside it and even entered the holiest of holies. (259) He describes how those 'Jews do walk about in the midst of the holy places, at the very time when their hands are still warm with the slaughter of their own countrymen.' (260) Believing God would intervene and deliver them by force, he records how the Zealots invited the Idumean army of some 20,000 troops to help to help defend Jerusalem from the Romans. Instead, they took advantage of the city and plundered it, 'nor did the Idumeans spare anybody...and not the outer Temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five-hundred dead bodies there'. (261) Josephus regarded the death of Ananus as the beginning of the of the destruction of Jerusalem, and it is possible that Christians saw in his murder the appointment of apostate high priests like Phannias, the sacrilege Jesus had warned of in Matthew 24. Later, the temple was subsequently defiled once more by the invading Roman army. Josephus describes the scene: 'And now the Romans...brought their ensigns to the Temple and set them near to its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them and there they did make Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.' (262)

As a credible first-century eyewitness and historian, Josephus shows conclusively, therefor, how the temple was desecrated on numerous occasions, first by Jewish Zealots, then by the marauding Idumeans and finally by Titus and his Roman army. Whether at the hands of Jews or pagans, with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 the 'Abomination' had indeed brought desolation. John Calvin believe that God 'deserted his Temple, because it was only founded for a time, and was but a shadow, until the Jews so completely violated the whole covenant that no sanctity remained in either the Temple, the nation, or the land itself'. (263)
.....While Jesus repeatedly warned of the destruction of the temple, and was known by his critics to have done so, he never promised that it would ever be rebuilt. (264)

257. Eusebius, 'On the Predictions of Christ', in The Esslesiastical History and the martyrs of Palestine (London: SPCK, 1927), 3.5.4, p. 69; 3.7,pp. 73-74

258. Josephus, Jewish Antiquities in The New Complete Works of Josephus (Grand Rapids: Kregal, 1999), 10.2.7 (276), p.357.

259. Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, 4.5.4 (343),p.823.

260. Ibid., 4.3.10 (162-163), pp. 813-814.

261. Ibid., 4.5.1 (313), p. 821

262. Josephus, Jewish Wars in The New Complete Works of Josephus (Grand Rapids: Kregal, 1999), 6.6.1 (316), p. 900

263. John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Daniel, translated by Thomas Myers, 2 vols. (Grand Rapids: eerdmans, 1948) vol. 2, p. 390.

264. John 2:19; Matt. 26:61; 27:40; Mark 14:59; 15:29.

All of the above taken from 'Christian Zionism, Road map to Armageddon?' by Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer
vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water, Surrey, and Chairman of the International Bible Society (UK).

Carey · Nov 19, 2007

Micah68 said:
Carey, Actually I am a sister, Micah 6:8 has special meaning to me. I think the first century Christians suffer horrendously, I can not think of a more terrifying, gruesome and humiliating way to die than in the Roman arenas. Matt. 24 fits quite well in the 1st century. Carey I have no fear of 'end time prophecy' as my faith is in God and not man's manipulation of scripture. Sorry friend God is so much bigger than this.

You know Jesus never did say the temple would be rebuilt.

The abpmonation that causes desolation could simply be standing where the temple once stood to fulfill the prophecy that warns us to head for the hills because all hell will break loose for a short time when he stands there to fulfill that prophecy.

Those with wisdom will know who that is and where that is.

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