Redemption of Satan??

paleodoxy said:

Padraig/Kevin:

Please don't take this to be impertinent, but this is an important issue. I could be misunderstanding you, so I will appeal for clarification one more time (having just read your latest post).

It sounds to me that you have argued for the possibility that the final judgment really may not be final after all (re: your first paragraph). Am I reading you accurately?

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Well, hopefully I can make myself clear this last time because I'll be out of touch for a bit. I cannot say more than I have said for fear of repeating myself ad infinitum. And I hate to quote myself, but: Well, first I would say that no salvation is possible without repentance. The problem seems to be an opposition to universalism which holds that eventually, even after eons, all will eventually repent and be saved. I do not know if this will happen, I do not love as I should, nor am I far on the path of theosis, so I will not begrudge the hope that it may happen because this hope is driven by love.

I will not profess to know what will happen given how much of our life is hidden in mystery, so much more is God hidden in mystery. Neither will I consider heretical those Fathers, theologians, and Heirarchs who profess a hope that all may eventually be saved. Love can hope for nothing less. Is this hope fruitless or misguided? I do not know. But given the eschatological nature of the Church and in particular her Liturgical expression, there are certain themes that lead me to necessarily conclude that this hope is not a complete invention in the mind those who pray for it.

Further, I propose this, as one who serves the Liturgy. Pray. Pray and do not speculate. Pray for everyone without reservation. St Silohuan urges us to pray even for those, "who will not pray." Will unbelievers be saved? As Christ says to St Peter, "What is that to you? Follow me."(John 21:23b). Know that our prayers are efficacious and timeless. God is merciful and will save whomever He chooses. And I, for one, am so thankful for this.

Undoubtedly, if you want theological treatises on this subject, there are many sources. I will not list them here because it will further speculation. I hope throughout this discussion I have been leading up to this point: pray without reservation. Pray for those who've passed wether they were "believers" or not. Pray for those who are yet to come whether they will be "believers" or not. Pray for the demons, and Satan himself. Pray, and believe God hears our prayers and if we strive toward holiness, those prayers will avail much.

If this continues to be muddled, I apologize profusely. The matter is not a simple one. But, if you need me to say anything else, you can disregard everything I have said until this last post, and especially: pray without reservation.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin

paleodoxy said:

I LOVE speculating about this stuff, lol Glad you brought it up. Not at all - my faith wouldn't be shaken one bit if we discovered extraterrestrial intelligent life somewhere in space (or even other worlds / dimensions). I think it's very possible that other intelligent life forms exist. But the thing is, angels are not in the same category. Though they are only creatures, they are part of the spiritual/eternal realm (i.e., they are heavenly beings), not part of the temporal order of the universe.

Now, let's take this another step further: If there are other intelligent races, are they good or evil, or are there good and evil races co-existing? It is clear that Adam's sin only affected the human race. So, one man's sin here is not going to affect the nature of another race somewhere else. If there are other fallen races, the doctrine of the Incarnation and the anathemas against Origen would seem to preclude God's taking multiple forms to save multiple races, since that idea would destroy the Incarnation: the Second Member of the Trinity could not become multiple hypostases in the Godhead, because (as St. Gregory of Nyssa said) three transcends duality (two) but more than three goes on infinitely (thus destroying unity). One and Many can only be resolved in a Divine Trinity.

So if (hypothetically) there were another fallen race out there, God could not save it and us without denying Himself and being other than what He is (which He can't do). So at the very least, we know that our race is quite unique.

This makes me think that there are probably not fallen races other than ours, because while it is true that Adam's sin can affect only his own race, the Resurrection / Ascension of Christ would effectively unite the whole temporal order with the eternal / angelic realm. But this couldn't happen if there were more than one fallen race, since the Atonement / Death would not be able to affect another fallen race but ours.

So if there are other races - which, given God's infinite nature and power, and considering the sheer size of our universe alone I almost find it laughable that anyone would suggest this isn't possible or even likely - they are UN-fallen. Yet, the Incarnation of Christ here on our planet would constitute the ultimate hope of theosis for these other planets (or worlds, or universes), for it is Christ's Ascension that (as just mentioned) ultimately unites the temporal realm with the eternal. (BTW, C.S. Lewis has a similar scenario in his fictional trilogy - the Space Trilogy (vol. II) - which you would enjoy reading.)

Now, assuming these other races exist, I think it unlikely that we will ever be able to co-exist with them until the consummation of all things, given the obvious scientific limitations and obstacles we face.

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Sweet. I've been looking for something with that sort of depth about extra terrestrial life. I've made threads on it before, but nothing has made as much sense as that! Thanks!

However, I don't understand why God couldn't do it to a being from the eternal realm, angel, demon, whatever. Is an Incarnation necessary, or was that just the chosen method for us? And if that is at all possible, then other life (sorry to diverge thread any ) might possible be fallen?

*pokes thread* ;;

Padraig said:

Well, hopefully I can make myself clear this last time because I'll be out of touch for a bit. I cannot say more than I have said for fear of repeating myself ad infinitum. And I hate to quote myself, but: Well, first I would say that no salvation is possible without repentance. The problem seems to be an opposition to universalism which holds that eventually, even after eons, all will eventually repent and be saved. I do not know if this will happen, I do not love as I should, nor am I far on the path of theosis, so I will not begrudge the hope that it may happen because this hope is driven by love.

I will not profess to know what will happen given how much of our life is hidden in mystery, so much more is God hidden in mystery. Neither will I consider heretical those Fathers, theologians, and Heirarchs who profess a hope that all may eventually be saved. Love can hope for nothing less. Is this hope fruitless or misguided? I do not know. But given the eschatological nature of the Church and in particular her Liturgical expression, there are certain themes that lead me to necessarily conclude that this hope is not a complete invention in the mind those who pray for it.

Further, I propose this, as one who serves the Liturgy. Pray. Pray and do not speculate. Pray for everyone without reservation. St Silohuan urges us to pray even for those, "who will not pray." Will unbelievers be saved? As Christ says to St Peter, "What is that to you? Follow me."(John 21:23b). Know that our prayers are efficacious and timeless. God is merciful and will save whomever He chooses. And I, for one, am so thankful for this.

Undoubtedly, if you want theological treatises on this subject, there are many sources. I will not list them here because it will further speculation. I hope throughout this discussion I have been leading up to this point: pray without reservation. Pray for those who've passed wether they were "believers" or not. Pray for those who are yet to come whether they will be "believers" or not. Pray for the demons, and Satan himself. Pray, and believe God hears our prayers and if we strive toward holiness, those prayers will avail much.

If this continues to be muddled, I apologize profusely. The matter is not a simple one. But, if you need me to say anything else, you can disregard everything I have said until this last post, and especially: pray without reservation.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin

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Origenism dies hard.

Fr. Dn Kevin, I want to reiterate that I very much appreciate your patient attitude throughout this discussion. I also wish to affirm that prayer and a hope that all will be saved should be top prority in our lives, and love for lost souls ought to urge upon us the dire need for charity, evangelism, and earnest invocation for the lost.

Nevertheless I will not pretend that what you have expressed here is somehow an innocent, legitimate, or viable expression of the Christian faith. This is heresy. One need not be Orthodox to know this, only a Christian with a knowledge of Patristic teaching and counciliar dogma. Regardless of where one sits in the world of Christendom (Roman Catholicism, Protestantism or Orthodoxy), any teaching which even permits the possibility of a Judgment that is neither final nor eternal in scope is a condemnable and damnable lie.

Please do do not think that I am passing judgment on your soul, but on the teaching you have promoted. There are many individuals who are inconsistent (in their lives and theology) with certain false premises they have chosen to adopt, and happily so. I don't know you, and refuse to speculate in this regard. That would be condemnable in itself. But I do know that, as a Christian, I have the sacred responsibility to avoid, expose, and condemn what I know to be heresy, and to warn others of such influence.

I am sure I will catch a lot of flak for this post, but so be it. I am called to proclaim the Truth as a Christian, and sometimes that proclamation involves the exposure of demonic activity in the form of "angels of light" (to paraphrase St. Paul). The fact that some clerics in the past within Orthodoxy have personally taken to heart the teaching you promote only tells me that they succumbed to heresy, not that there is historically or traditionally any room to compromise here.

Finally, I did not miss the distinction you tried to make between Origen's position on pre-existence of souls and your version of universalism. This only demonstrates your inconsistency, as universalism is impossible apart from Origen's view of souls. By denying the finality of the judgment as an inevitability and point of dogma, you have placed God and creation on the same ontological level or plane of existence. You are doing eschatologically what Origen did both protologically (pre-existence of souls) and eschatologically (salvation for all, including Satan).

The only difference is Origen was consistent, you are not.

In the name of the fear of God, I ask you humbly to reconsider and repent of this teaching. I ask it of you as a fellow Christian only, not presuming to speak with any legitimate influence within the Orthodox communion. I speak only as a concerned brother.

Paleodoxy, I have not read this entire thread but when reading Fr Dn Kevin is he not just saying that this is what we need to strive for in our prayer as a form of theosis? That to hope for the ultimate miracle from the Holy Trinity for all and yet not dispute what you mention about the judgement? Since if one does not repent and strive one is condemned. At the same time, for instance, we pray for the souls of all departed (All Souls Saturday especially). Universalism as doctrine is heresy but the hope for it is not since this is not imposing our limited understanding upon the mystery of God. Hope this makes sense and I do not mean to critique either of you.

I believe it to be a bit unloving in my response, so I deleted this post.

I have reread this entire thread multiple times, and I have come to this: I have not promoted heresy. I have not advocated that any being whatsoever will be saved post-Judgment. I have advocated, consistently, prayer and the hope of the salvation of all. I do not think we can do less. I have an aversion to Paleodoxy's use of a historical timeline in order to dictate the "cut off" date on salvation when the Orthodox understanding of prayer leads us to refrain from such categorizations and to pray unceasingly.

I have striven to urge Paleodoxy and others to not to worry about these things and pray anyway. Ultimately, it is a point of contention that is beyond our ken. It does not matter what sources any of us pull out of our hats (myself especially), the Church in her humanity cannot dictate to God who will or will not be saved. And the Church has always known this and expressed this. We should refrain from doing so, of course this is my opinion, and my opinion is not worth much.

Yes, we have dogmas, but no dogma addresses the topic which we've been discussing save the proclamation that Christ will come to judge the living and the dead, and his Kingdom will have no end. St Gregory the Theologian warns against speculation before one is ready. I affirm I am not ready for speculation as to the ultimate outcome of all things. We may say, that Councils have addressed certain issues, which is fine. But the Councils do not forbid hope and prayer. Many of us, myself chief, cannot fully conceive of the cosmic and mystological significance of salvation and our prayers for it.

I cannot therefore recant anything I have attempted to say. I cannot reject hope and prayer. I am less concerned with historical timelines than I once was. I am less concerned with imposing my understanding upon the incomprehensible God.

Pale, you have publicly accused me of heresy. You have asked me to recant out of concern. I respect that because I know it comes from a desire for my soul. But I cannot meet your demands. Accordingly, you must decide for yourself if you will bring my "damnable lies" before the proper authorities. This is not an outcome I look forward to, but will submit to the will and discipline of my bishop.

Regardless of whether or not you choose to report me, this discussion has led me to certain epiphanies. As I am not worthy of speculation, I will refrain from participating in these speculative discussions. What started out as a defense of Met Kallistos has caused division in this community –if for no others, than between you and myself. All of the talk in the world is not worth this. I find, therefore, I can no longer be in this forum. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees on private theological reflection is inconsequential to the possibility of causing my brother to stumble.

I cannot recant, but I will refrain from any further dialogue. I hope the members of TAW will pray that I may seek to unite myself to Christ daily, and that I will pray as I should. Again, if you choose to bring formal charges against me, pm or email me and I will give you the proper contact information.

In Christ,
Fr Dn Kevin

forgive me, but whats the point of hoping for something that we know will not happen?

In the name of the fear of God, I ask you humbly to reconsider and repent of this teaching. I ask it of you as a fellow Christian only, not presuming to speak with any legitimate influence within the Orthodox communion. I speak only as a concerned brother.



Now this is going too far..... I will pray for both of you tonight . May the Lord forgive you for the judgment that was expressed.... And may the Lord forgive us all.

Lord have mercy on us sinners.

Fr. Dn. Bless,
In Christ,
Philothei

So...

Is an Incarnation necessary for other races, heavenly and temporal (as I asked above)?

I've always found it amazing that God could forgive even Satan, and that the possibility is there.

Yall, take a step back.

Paleo---You REALLY need to take a few deep breaths and realize that while every member of the Body of Christ is responsible for living the life of the Church and passing on her beliefs--you are very new to Orthodoxy and may not yet have the ability (aka discernment) to correct others-- no matter how well read and educated you consider yourself.

Publicly accusing a clergy member of heresy is a serious matter. You've done it with bishops, so you seem to have no problem with doing so with deacons. Before you speak and have the gumption to "correct" seminary-educated men who have received the ministerial grace of the laying on of hands, perhaps a step back to see the bigger picture is in order. At this point, I feel this conduct is getting ridiculous. Let's all have a temporary closing of thread to go cool off and stop speaking on the matter for a while---rather than speak and remove all doubt concerning our foolishness.