Redemption of Satan??

paleodoxy said:

Matrona is not Orthodox on this, either - just FYI

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It would be appropriate for you to retract this.

I have no words of wisdom to add my input on this topic except to say that we, as humans, can not put a limit on what God can or will do. Ultimately it is up to Him, the future residence of the evil doer, Satan.

ma2000 said:

My point exactly. I don't know why you don't understant this, paleodoxy. If you read Saint Anthony's testimony again, you will see that the devils can repent just like humans do. Before the second comming. They will probably not repent. But they have the chance. They can't say before The Judge they didn't have a chance to repent.

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Hi, ma.

To clarify for you, my belief that demons cannot be redeemed once they have fallen is rooted in the biblical and traditional teaching that only those created in God's image are able to repent (i.e., humans). Only those in the image of the Divine-Human Logos Incarnate are able to experience renewal and theosis. As a result, I don't think the idea that demons can be saved is able to be separated from the ecumenical condemnation of pre-existence of souls or of anthropological universalism as espoused by Origen. All of these notions share the same metaphysical presuppositions - e.g., that there is no real distinction between time and eternity, Creator and created.

paleodoxy said:

Hi, ma.

To clarify for you, my belief that demons cannot be redeemed once they have fallen is rooted in the biblical and traditional teaching that only those created in God's image are able to repent (i.e., humans). Only those in the image of the Divine-Human Logos Incarnate are able to experience renewal and theosis. As a result, I don't think the idea that demons can be saved is able to be separated from the ecumenical condemnation of pre-existence of souls or of anthropological universalism as espoused by Origen. All of these notions share the same metaphysical presuppositions - e.g., that there is no real distinction between time and eternity, Creator and created.

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I haven't seen anyone suggest that demons can experience theosis. It is obvious that if demons can be redeemed, it would not be anything like our redemption. In fact, what the anathemas against Origen are saying is exactly that, that the Son of God did not become a demon/angel that they might be redeemed like us. But I'm curious what your evidence is that they cannot even repent and be forgiven.

EDIT: Editing this last post because I too hastily gave a preliminary opinion on the possibility of salvation after death (before the Second Coming) that I am not sure I agree with yet. After hearing views in favor, I still need to hear the opposition (Fr. Michael Azkouls, etc.al.) (It would almost seem to constitute a doctrine of Purgatory comparable to the Roman view, which I would have problems with.)

Fr. Thomas Hopko's defense of Toll Houses (classical/patristic version) for the purification of believes was superb, and I am not calling that into question at all.

But I'm still interested in getting clarification from Dn. Kevin regarding whether or not he agrees with repentant's opinion that salvation is possible even for those who have not repented by the time of the General Resurrection.

nutroll said:

I haven't seen anyone suggest that demons can experience theosis. It is obvious that if demons can be redeemed, it would not be anything like our redemption. In fact, what the anathemas against Origen are saying is exactly that, that the Son of God did not become a demon/angel that they might be redeemed like us. But I'm curious what your evidence is that they cannot even repent and be forgiven.

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This does raise some interesting questions.

It seems to me that the angels had to undergo some sort of growth in order to be confirmed in righteousness. The fact that the angels were able to fall in the first place would suggest this (along with the reality that those angels which did not fall now appear to be firm loyalists and faithful worshipers of the Trinity). In this sense, it would seem that God's purpose for the angels reflects God's original purpose for Man (growth into eschatological maturity: theosis).

The demons were not created intrinsically evil, and God cannot create anything intrinsically evil. And obviously, the angels were not originally made according to a blueprint of eschatological perfection, otherwise they could not have fallen in the first place. (Further, I would submit that it is not possible for a creature to begin its temporal existence in a state that represents the goal of theosis, otherwise the creature would be co-eternal with God (not temporal at all) and thus part of His essence, which is intolerable.)

In light of this, the only way for a demon to be redeemed is for God to have become the nature of a demon and redeem him (in the same way that God took our nature and redeemed us). But since the anathemas against Origen preclude this possibility, I think we are obligated to concur.

paleodoxy said:

But I'm still interested in getting clarification from Dn. Kevin regarding whether or not he agrees with repentant's opinion that salvation is possible even for those who have not repented by the time of the General Resurrection.

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Wow, how did you get that my opinion is that salvation is possible for those who have already died out of this?

There is never a guarantee that you can pray anyone out of hell, but according to many accounts it has happened...

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But to clarify, I do think under certain circumstances, a person can be prayed out of hell. If not, there would be no reason whatsoever to pray for the dead. We would believe as the Protestants do that once your dead, that's it.

I would like to hear an answer to this question from Orthodox people who do not believe you can pray a person out of hell..

Why do we pray for the dead?

To make us feel better about ourselves?

Let's say a person is Baptized/Chrismated EO, and lives a normal life, goes to Church, partakes of Communion, confesses regularly, etc. He commits a sin, and before repenting or confessing, he dies. What then? Can he be saved from that one sin after his death? Can the Blood of Christ transcend life and death to wash this man clean? Can our prayers of the Church help him? Or are they in vain? We can't answer that. But according to the Traditions of the Church, and our services for the dead, not only within the 40 days, but the yearly services, etc., and our prayers, there is a possibility we can help them. Otherwise, we wouldn't do it. So using logic, we can only assume that the Church believed people can be saved after death..

repentant said:

Wow, how did you get that my opinion is that salvation is possible for those who have already died out of this?

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Earlier I made the statement that there is no salvation after the Second Coming for those who haven't repented, and you came back with some remark about how we shouldn't limit God and this and that. It's possible that at some point along the way we began to speak past each other. Misunderstandings are pretty easy to come by in cyber space.Thanks for clarifying...BUT then you say:

But to clarify, I do think under certain circumstances, a person can be prayed out of hell. If not, there would be no reason whatsoever to pray for the dead.

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I think there are plenty of good reasons to pray for those who die in faith: for their successful passage to paradise, for their ongoing growth in theosis (since that doesn't stop at death), for their general well being and for their future participation in the resurrection from the dead. The one overarching reason to pray for them is: LOVE. Since they are one of us, we obviously continue to care about their experience and growth and ultimate transformation.

As to praying for those who die in unbelief - I'm not sure (yet) that I agree with the possibility of salvation in Hades before the Final Judgment, so I'm going to maintain silence on this.

paleodoxy said:

In light of this, the only way for a demon to be redeemed is for God to have become the nature of a demon and redeem him (in the same way that God took our nature and redeemed us).

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This will probably sound very ignorant of me. However, everything isn't in the Bible. For example, discovering intelligent extraterrestrial life wouldn't necessarily disprove Christianity. There may be other life out there, but it isn't important to our salvation and thus there isn't reason for it to be in God's Word, the Bible. What if something like this had happened, maybe not in the exact way? Is there even the most remote possibility that, in some way or another, God has in fact done this?

paleodoxy said:

This does raise some interesting questions.

It seems to me that the angels had to undergo some sort of growth in order to be confirmed in righteousness. The fact that the angels were able to fall in the first place would suggest this (along with the reality that those angels which did not fall now appear to be firm loyalists and faithful worshipers of the Trinity). In this sense, it would seem that God's purpose for the angels reflects God's original purpose for Man (growth into eschatological maturity: theosis).

The demons were not created intrinsically evil, and God cannot create anything intrinsically evil. And obviously, the angels were not originally made according to a blueprint of eschatological perfection, otherwise they could not have fallen in the first place. (Further, I would submit that it is not possible for a creature to begin its temporal existence in a state that represents the goal of theosis, otherwise the creature would be co-eternal with God (not temporal at all) and thus part of His essence, which is intolerable.)

In light of this, the only way for a demon to be redeemed is for God to have become the nature of a demon and redeem him (in the same way that God took our nature and redeemed us). But since the anathemas against Origen preclude this possibility, I think we are obligated to concur.

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On what do you base this, though? You seem to be assuming both the premises and then the conclusions based on those premises. I don't see the necessity to agree with your assumptions, and I can't see why then I should accept your conclusion. Where is the Biblical or Patristic evidence to support your views?

paleodoxy said:

Earlier I made the statement that there is no salvation after the Second Coming for those who haven't repented, and you came back with some remark about how we shouldn't limit God and this and that. It's possible that at some point along the way we began to speak past each other. Misunderstandings are pretty easy to come by in cyber space.Thanks for clarifying...BUT then you say:

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I never once in thread ever talked about after the Second Coming. I am reffering to now. How can we pray for the dead, after? This also includes the possibility of demons repenting before. This is what I said. I never said anything about after the Second Coming...

I think there are plenty of good reasons to pray for those who die in faith: for their successful passage to paradise, for their ongoing growth in theosis (since that doesn't stop at death), for their general well being and for their future participation in the resurrection from the dead. The one overarching reason to pray for them is: LOVE. Since they are one of us, we obviously continue to care about their experience and growth and ultimate transformation.

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You make a point here except for this...

People:Among the spirits of the righteous perfected in faith, give rest, O Savior, to the soul of Your servant. Bestow upon it the blessed life which is from You, O loving Lord.

People:Within Your peace, O Lord, where all Your Saints repose, give rest also to the soul of Your servant, for You alone are Immortal.

People:Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

People:O Savior, You are our God who descended into Hades and delivered from suffering those who were bound there. Grant rest also to the soul of Your servant.

People:Now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

People:Most pure and spotless Virgin, who ineffably gave birth to God, intercede with Him for the salvation of the soul of your servant.

Priest: Have mercy upon us, O God, according to Your great mercy; we pray to You, hear us and have mercy.

People: Lord, have mercy (3).

Priest: Again we pray for the repose of the soul of the departed servant of God (Name), and for the forgiveness of all his (her) sins, both voluntary and involuntary.

-Memorial Service

(Having returned the Cup to the holy Table, the priest transfers the particles of the Theotokos and the saints into the Chalice, and then those of the living and the dead saying Wash away, Lord, by Your holy Blood, the sins of all those commemorated through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints. Amen.

-Divine Liturgy

In the MS we pray for Christ to give the person rest with the Saints, and forgiveness of sins. IN the Liturgy, the dead are commemorated, and the Priest asks The Lord to wash away their sins with His Blood. If we couldn't help them, and a person couldn't be forgiven after death, i.e. prayed out of hell, then what is the point?

As to praying for those who die in unbelief - I'm not sure (yet) that I agree with the possibility of salvation in Hades before the Final Judgment, so I'm going to maintain silence on this.

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This reeks universal salvation, and I would stay away from it...not to mention we are not even supposed to pray for the unbelieving dead for forgiveness..you would have to accept forgiveness when you are alive for you to be forgiven when you are dead..blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Jesus talked about...

paleodoxy said:

But I'm still interested in getting clarification from Dn. Kevin regarding whether or not he agrees with repentant's opinion that salvation is possible even for those who have not repented by the time of the General Resurrection.

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Well, first I would say that no salvation is possible without repentance. The problem seems to be an opposition to universalism which holds that eventually, even after eons, all will eventually repent and be saved. I do not know if this will happen, I do not love as I should, nor am I far on the path of theosis, so I will not begrudge the hope that it may happen because this hope is driven by love.

Having said that, I think it important to be mindful of God's existence as an eternal present. To confine God to a historical timeline is detrimental to our understanding of prayer. As I said in an earlier post, which I believe you disagreed with, when we gather liturgically, we enter into this eternal present. Time is fulfilled in eternity, not taken over by it or obliterated by it. The Divine Liturgy "takes place" within that never ending day of the Kingdom in which all historical events have been consummated and Christ is all in all, and we pray for all. We pray for all past, present, and yes even future. Additionally, we pray along with all Orthodox past, present, and those yet to be born in our historical timeline. Do you see how this should inform our speaking of those who can and cannot be saved based on the historical timeline?

Who can be saved? Only God knows. The Councils do not address this. Yes, in the condemnation of Origenism the Church stated that the preexistence of souls and the universal salvation that results therefrom is to be rejected. And to be clear, Met Kallistos, St Gregory and St Isaac never preached this type of universalism. No one is advocating –at least on this forum–Origenistic universalism.

I hope this helps clear up my perspective at least.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin

JustinHesychast said:

This will probably sound very ignorant of me. However, everything isn't in the Bible. For example, discovering intelligent extraterrestrial life wouldn't necessarily disprove Christianity. There may be other life out there, but it isn't important to our salvation and thus there isn't reason for it to be in God's Word, the Bible. What if something like this had happened, maybe not in the exact way? Is there even the most remote possibility that, in some way or another, God has in fact done this?

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I LOVE speculating about this stuff, lol Glad you brought it up. Not at all - my faith wouldn't be shaken one bit if we discovered extraterrestrial intelligent life somewhere in space (or even other worlds / dimensions). I think it's very possible that other intelligent life forms exist. But the thing is, angels are not in the same category. Though they are only creatures, they are part of the spiritual/eternal realm (i.e., they are heavenly beings), not part of the temporal order of the universe.

Now, let's take this another step further: If there are other intelligent races, are they good or evil, or are there good and evil races co-existing? It is clear that Adam's sin only affected the human race. So, one man's sin here is not going to affect the nature of another race somewhere else. If there are other fallen races, the doctrine of the Incarnation and the anathemas against Origen would seem to preclude God's taking multiple forms to save multiple races, since that idea would destroy the Incarnation: the Second Member of the Trinity could not become multiple hypostases in the Godhead, because (as St. Gregory of Nyssa said) three transcends duality (two) but more than three goes on infinitely (thus destroying unity). One and Many can only be resolved in a Divine Trinity.

So if (hypothetically) there were another fallen race out there, God could not save it and us without denying Himself and being other than what He is (which He can't do). So at the very least, we know that our race is quite unique.

This makes me think that there are probably not fallen races other than ours, because while it is true that Adam's sin can affect only his own race, the Resurrection / Ascension of Christ would effectively unite the whole temporal order with the eternal / angelic realm. But this couldn't happen if there were more than one fallen race, since the Atonement / Death would not be able to affect another fallen race but ours.

So if there are other races - which, given God's infinite nature and power, and considering the sheer size of our universe alone I almost find it laughable that anyone would suggest this isn't possible or even likely - they are UN-fallen. Yet, the Incarnation of Christ here on our planet would constitute the ultimate hope of theosis for these other planets (or worlds, or universes), for it is Christ's Ascension that (as just mentioned) ultimately unites the temporal realm with the eternal. (BTW, C.S. Lewis has a similar scenario in his fictional trilogy - the Space Trilogy (vol. II) - which you would enjoy reading.)

Now, assuming these other races exist, I think it unlikely that we will ever be able to co-exist with them until the consummation of all things, given the obvious scientific limitations and obstacles we face.

repentant said:

I never once in thread ever talked about after the Second Coming. I am reffering to now.

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That's good to hear. I think you misunderstood something I said, and responded to what you *thought* I said, and thus I naturally assumed (as a result) that you were embracing a universalist outlook. Glad we cleared that up, brother.

How can we pray for the dead, after?

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Oh, well I perfectly accept the content of the liturgy from the Memorial Service. I'm not sure why my last response would make you think I would have a problem with it.

I think part of our confusion may stem from the fact that we are using Hell and Hades in different ways. I have been distinguishing them, and I think you are mostly equating them. My habit is often to use Hades when referring to the time prior to Final Judgment, with Hell being after the Final Judgment / General Resurrection / Second Coming.

So, since you clearly disagree that non-believers can be saved after death (you accuse this if being an illegitimate universalism)...what exactly do you mean when you say that people can be "prayed out of hell". Do you mean it the way I refer to Hades? And only for those who are believers - after death but before paradise?

This also includes the possibility of demons repenting before.

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The repentance of demons is impossible, for the reasons enumerated in my last post addressed to nutroll.

This reeks universal salvation, and I would stay away from it...not to mention we are not even supposed to pray for the unbelieving dead for forgiveness..you would have to accept forgiveness when you are alive for you to be forgiven when you are dead..blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Jesus talked about...

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Wow, so this is not considered within the realm of possibility at all within Holy Tradition? I have been very uncomfortable with the idea, but I didn't realize it was considered so dangerous by Orthodoxy. I said that because...my priest supports this view (uh oh). He was honest enough to say that it was his personal opinion and did not reflect the views of most Orthodox...but still...wow.

Padraig/Kevin:

Please don't take this to be impertinent, but this is an important issue. I could be misunderstanding you, so I will appeal for clarification one more time (having just read your latest post).

It sounds to me that you have argued for the possibility that the final judgment really may not be final after all (re: your first paragraph). Am I reading you accurately?

paleodoxy said:

That's good to hear. I think you misunderstood something I said, and responded to what you *thought* I said, and thus I naturally assumed (as a result) that you were embracing a universalist outlook. Glad we cleared that up, brother.

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Not for nothing, but I think you are the one who is misunderstanding. You are assuming we are talking about post judgement, when nobody has been. The only time I reffered to post judgement, is when I asked what you were reffering to...

Oh, well I perfectly accept the content of the liturgy from the Memorial Service. I'm not sure why my last response would make you think I would have a problem with it.

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Because the MS clearly indicates asking for the sins to be forgiven, which would lead to someonte being forgiven after they are dead of said sins..you left that part out of your reasons for praying for the dead.

I think part of our confusion may stem from the fact that we are using Hell and Hades in different ways. I have been distinguishing them, and I think you are mostly equating them. My habit is often to use Hades when referring to the time prior to Final Judgment, with Hell being after the Final Judgment / General Resurrection / Second Coming.

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I am reffering to whatever you want to call it that they are at now..

So, since you clearly disagree that non-believers can be saved after death (you accuse this if being an illegitimate universalism)...what exactly do you mean when you say that people can be "prayed out of hell". Do you mean it the way I refer to Hades? And only for those who are believers - after death but before paradise?

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In other words, the Church can ask for forgiveness on your behalf, as it does in the services, and again, I am reffering to where ever people are now..and it would be only believers who would have a chance, or else like I said, it would be universal salvation...

The repentance of demons is impossible, for the reasons enumerated in my last post addressed to nutroll.

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No. You assume God would have had to become "like angels" for them to repent and be saved. But your theory is off for many reasons..
1. You assume it's out of God's hands, and He has one way of doing everything.

2. You would have to say the good angels can not be "saved" either, for lack of a better term, because they were never redeemed as we were with the Incarnation. You would have to say that ALL angels have a "fallen nature" now, as we humans do. So if God needed to become like angels for demons to be saved, then God would have to become like angels for Michael, Gabriel, etc. to be saved. All angels would be effected by some, just as all men have been effected by some...And of course this is not logical...

Wow, so this is not considered within the realm of possibility at all within Holy Tradition? I have been very uncomfortable with the idea, but I didn't realize it was considered so dangerous by Orthodoxy. I said that because...my priest supports this view (uh oh). He was honest enough to say that it was his personal opinion and did not reflect the views of most Orthodox...but still...wow.

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Well if you think of it this way..the Church is the Ark that leads to Salvation. When we get pulled into the waves, the Ark saves us, and continues to save us. The Ark keeps us from drowing, as long as we try to stay on the Ark. Now if we refuse to take the Ark across the river to Salvation, and instead would rather swim on are own and then we drown. What good is the Ark then?

repentant said:

Not for nothing, but I think you are the one who is misunderstanding. You are assuming we are talking about post judgement, when nobody has been.

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Well, that's not entirely true. A LOT of people have posted in this thread, and not all of them have provided uniform answers. Many of them have been mixed, and Padraig's latest posts hold out for the possibility of salvation after the Final Judgment, so not for nothing have I been confused.

Other than that, I think you and I are back on track communication wise. You do not hold to the possibility of salvation for the unbelieving after death or after the Final Judgment. Second, both of us are on board with the Memorial Service prayer. No problem there.

That just leaves the question of salvation for demons:

1. You assume it's out of God's hands, and He has one way of doing everything.

2. You would have to say the good angels can not be "saved" either, for lack of a better term, because they were never redeemed as we were with the Incarnation. You would have to say that ALL angels have a "fallen nature" now, as we humans do. So if God needed to become like angels for demons to be saved, then God would have to become like angels for Michael, Gabriel, etc. to be saved. All angels would be effected by some, just as all men have been effected by some...And of course this is not logical...

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All of these so-called Incarnational "problems" are moot for me, since I don't acknowledge the possibility of the salvation of fallen angels in the first place.

Regarding #1: It's not a matter of God somehow being "powerless" to save fallen angels. It's not an issue of God being weak or unmerciful - it's an issue of the nature of the eternal realm. Angels are part of that realm, and thus once they are confirmed in either righteousness or unrighteousness, they remain in that state. God sovereignly ORDAINED it that way. That's why He created them the way He created them. You may disagree with that, but at least deal with my actual argument, rather than what you assume I should be arguing.

Regarding # 2: This makes no sense to say that, in my view, even good angels would have to be "fallen". Since they are part of the heavenly/eternal realm, they don't need the Incarnation to "redeem" them. Heck, Orthodoxy isn't even dogmatic about the necessity for the Incarnation had even MAN not fallen! So if Orthodoxy doesn't officially insist on the need for the Incarnation in Adam's case, what makes you think some kind of (additional) "incarnation" would be necessary in my system in order for the angels to be saved?

Well if you think of it this way..the Church is the Ark that leads to Salvation. When we get pulled into the waves, the Ark saves us, and continues to save us. The Ark keeps us from drowing, as long as we try to stay on the Ark. Now if we refuse to take the Ark across the river to Salvation, and instead would rather swim on are own and then we drown. What good is the Ark then?

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Good way of putting it!

paleodoxy said:

Well, that's not entirely true. A LOT of people have posted in this thread, and not all of them have provided uniform answers. Many of them have been mixed, and Padraig's latest posts hold out for the possibility of salvation after the Final Judgment, so not for nothing have I been confused.

Other than that, I think you and I are back on track communication wise. You do not hold to the possibility of salvation for the unbelieving after death or after the Final Judgment. Second, both of us are on board with the Memorial Service prayer. No problem there.

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Allrighty then...

That just leaves the question of salvation for demons:

All of these so-called Incarnational "problems" are moot for me, since I don't acknowledge the possibility of the salvation of fallen angels in the first place.

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I know you don't, and your only arguement is weak, as I have pointed out...

Regarding #1: It's not a matter of God somehow being "powerless" to save fallen angels. It's not an issue of God being weak or unmerciful - it's an issue of the nature of the eternal realm. Angels are part of that realm, and thus once they are confirmed in either righteousness or unrighteousness, they remain in that state. God sovereignly ORDAINED it that way. That's why He created them the way He created them. You may disagree with that, but at least deal with my actual argument, rather than what you assume I should be arguing.

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Angels are created beings, not eternal. Where do you get your idea that once they are confirmed one way or another they must stay that way?

Regarding # 2: This makes no sense to say that, in my view, even good angels would have to be "fallen". Since they are part of the heavenly/eternal realm, they don't need the Incarnation to "redeem" them. Heck, Orthodoxy isn't even dogmatic about the necessity for the Incarnation had even MAN not fallen! So if Orthodoxy doesn't officially insist on the need for the Incarnation in Adam's case, what makes you think some kind of "incarnation" would be necessary in my system in order for the angels to be saved?

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Your entire arguement to nutroll was that demons cannot be saved because God would need to become "like them" for them to be saved..why are you changing your story now?

This is exactly what you said:

In light of this, the only way for a demon to be redeemed is for God to have become the nature of a demon and redeem him (in the same way that God took our nature and redeemed us). But since the anathemas against Origen preclude this possibility, I think we are obligated to concur.

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So if it is as you say, demons can only be redeemed if God takes on their nature as He did for us, we can only logically conclude that God would then have to take on angelic nature and redeem ALL angelic beings, just like He had to redeem all of us, even though not all of us commited the sin of eating from the tree...do you get this?

Good way of putting it

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I know.

repentant said:

Angels are created beings, not eternal.

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That's what I said. They are created. But at the same time, they were created as part of the eternal/heavenly realm, so they don't belong to the temporal/human realm of creation.

Where do you get your idea that once they are confirmed one way or another they must stay that way?

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By the fact that the Son could only take on a temporal nature (a human nature). Since He is Eternal, He cannot take on the nature of a being (i.e., angels) that were created as part of the eternal realm.

Your entire arguement to nutroll was that demons cannot be saved because God would need to become "like them" for them to be saved..why are you changing your story now?

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I've never altered my story. Nutroll suggested that angels don't go through a form of theosis, and thus salvation for them would be fundamentally different than it is for us. I disputed this, explaining that the angels obviously had to go through some sort of spiritual growth period (theosis), otherwise they wouldn't have been able to sin to begin with.

Also, if you don't think angels are ever confirmed in any particular state, do you think the "good" angels can go on rebelling?

Paleo, I quoted exactly what you said to nutroll.

Angels were given free will as all created beings are.

You say angels needed to go through some sort of theosis in order to sin in the first place..well I haven't achieved theosis, does that mean I can't sin then?

Another one of your theory's busted..you going to twist what you said here too...?

honestly paleo, you are assuming way to much, and are trying to explain things that are unexplainable to us, and things the Church hasn't even began to explain. I think you need to get off your pedestal, and really take a step back and start listening