Redemption of Satan??

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xristos.anesti

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I think that we should pray for everyone - in all times - for all times - everywhere and all the time.

Who is anyone to judge? The concern of God - it is His decision to save whomever He wants and whenever He wants - it is not democracy - it is not "if him why not me" -

we have all failed and live only by the mercy of God.

So, if we live (who commit so much sin on our own - and then have face to come to God and beg for forgiveness's - only to go and sin again) every day by that mercy, how can we ask and expect to be entertained with an answer about what God will do with anyone else if they wish to be so - including satan and all the demons. (Also, who are we to argue if God saves even those who do not want to be saved?)

Demons served God - and were good before they became evil.

We were never good - and we expect mercy, so tell me you wise people - how dare we - being never good - to expect that those who were good and sinned to be punished if God wishes them to not be so when we who were never good expect the mercy.

How dare you to look into others - even demons - and ask of God why they should not be reconciled unto Him - when all we should do is beg for our own and all the worlds salvation.


Universal salvation was condemned as a heresy as a theological form and not as a point of hope and prayer.

So, if blessed metropolitan speaks of possible or even remote or even a chance of salvation for the devil and demons or if he mentions that there could be a way of it - why attack him or feel bad about it -

God wants all to be saved - why do you assume that only means humans...

The Church is here for the sick and wounded - who is more sick and wounded than Lightbearer and his hordes? Who needs the Doctor more than those who brought death into the universe.

If you look at yourselves as I look at me - you will see only evil - and you will see a demon fighting against God.

Christ has died for all men - but do you think that God is so limited and that all men means only men? God is not so limited...

Let all those who ask for mercy be granted, for it is a gift - let us not talk about who deserves what for we all deserve only one thing...

Let us pray for everyone - in all times - for all times - everywhere and all the time.

Many years.
 
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Vasileios

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Just voicing my wholehearted agreement with Padraig and marvelling at his patience.

Indeed, the elder Paisios did pray for the salvation of demons and the devil and I don't care what chapter of Lossky you fling at him, he was a saint who had achieved THEOSIS, which makes him the genuine theologian of the Church.

The incident goes that late at night after his long prayers for the world, the elder prayed for the devil saying: "God, what about him?"

At that point God permitted the devil to appear to the elder, and he did in the form of a very monstrous, hideous face that was mocking the elder.

I believe this incident alone sums up fully the Orthodox position. God wants the devil to be saved, we want the devil to be saved, the devil does not want to be saved.
Could the devil be saved? Yes, else Church fathers of the caliber of St. Isaac, St Gregory and the elder Paisios would not comment on the subject.

As St. Silhouan said to a monk "Love cannot bear to see the torment of damnation", and he was talking about men who cannot bear it. Let us at least be silent about what God bears or not.
 
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paleodoxy

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I think that we should pray for everyone - in all times - for all times - everywhere and all the time.

Agreed!

Who is anyone to judge? The concern of God - it is His decision to save whomever He wants and whenever He wants - it is not democracy - it is not "if him why not me" -
Correct. But the notion that men could be redeemed after being condemned at the Second Coming and General Resurrection is a form of universalism precluded by the council.

If God, in His great mercy, wishes to save everyone (prior to the Second Coming) who has died and gone to Hades, that is His business. So nobody is suggesting that we shouldn't pray for the saints or non-believers after their deaths. This has been brought up several times as a concern by onlookers only partially involved in this thread, and it needs to be laid to rest, because that is not what we're discussing.

we have all failed and live only by the mercy of God.
Indeed.

We were never good - and we expect mercy, so tell me you wise people - how dare we - being never good - to expect that those who were good and sinned to be punished if God wishes them to not be so when we who were never good expect the mercy.
The ability to be saved has nothing to do with whether or not we were once good. The question has to be rooted in Christology, God's Son taking on our nature (not the demons').

How dare you to look into others - even demons - and ask of God why they should not be reconciled unto Him - when all we should do is beg for our own and all the worlds salvation.
We (I) do beg for our own and the world's forgiveness. But the time for the possibility of this forgiveness is restricted to world history before the new creation, and those in Hades prior the Second Coming. In short, it is restricted to the realm of temporality; it does not extend into eternity, for God is the only Eternal One, and transcends all that He created. He is not contingent or dependent on creation. If we adopted this form of universalism you are calling a possibility, we would have to profess faith in another God - other than the one which is confessed in the Creed.

Universal salvation was condemned as a heresy as a theological form and not as a point of hope and prayer.
What??? We can pray for what is condemned as a heresy?

Christ has died for all men - but do you think that God is so limited and that all men means only men? God is not so limited...
On the contrary, arguing that demons can be redeemed after the fall (or non-believers after the Second Coming) is to place limits on God's Being, making Him contingent on the creaturely world by making Him co-eternal with them and with sin, since the angels (good and bad) are beyond the temporal realm, and since the General Resurrection brings an end to the temporal realm of existence.

It is not a question of limiting God. It is a question of God limiting Himself. In other words, He specifically created the nature of heavenly beings in such a way that they could not be saved once (if) they fell.

Let all those who ask for mercy be granted, for it is a gift - let us not talk about who deserves what for we all deserve only one thing...
It is not a question of arguing that others deserve what we supposedly do not deserve. We all deserve the same thing. Sin (naturally) results in Death for everyone (apart from God's grace).

This is an issue of Trinitarian orthodoxy and the preservation of the consensus of the faith of our fathers.

God have mercy on me and on all of us.
 
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-Kyriaki-

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Okay. Not going to try and wade in here, I think the argument is now fairly over my head.

But - thankyou Padraig for your posts, they've helped me a lot with some things I was struggling with.

And Paleodoxy - I can't answer your posts completely tonight, and possibly not at all, but I fail to see how it's an issue of Trinitarian Orthodoxy. Isn't it an issue of a theological opinion (and yes, okay, heresy, if you want to call it that, though I wouldn't dare as a catechumen personally) rather than an issue regarding Orthodoxy as a whole - and particularly I can't quite see how the Trinity's brought into it. If you'd enlighten me I'd be appreciative :)
 
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ma2000

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This is not important. I don't know why we put such importance on these things.

17. One day some old men came to see Abba Anthony. In the midst of them was Abba Joseph. Wanting to test them, the old man suggested a text from the Scriptures, and, beginning with the youngest, he asked them what it meant. Each gave his opinion as he was able. But to each one the old man said, "You have not understood it." Last of all he said to Abba Joseph, "How would you explain this saying?" And he replied, "I do not know." Then Abba Anthony said, "Indeed, Abba Joseph has found the way, for he has said: 'I do not know."

I would be more careful before calling someone a heretic.
You have a chance to win the lottery only if you buy a ticket. However, that is hardly enough. You have a chance, very small, but it doesn't mean that you will win. It's the same with the redemption of the devils.

The Prologues are part of the Holy Tradition. They are not just simple anecdotes. There are stories included there to enlighten us and to teach us. These stories come directly from the Holy Fathers.

The story I am talking about can be found in Romanian here, here and in other places. I am sure that it can be found online at least in Greek and Russian.

The text is very long, so I'll make it short:

January 17

Saint Anthony the Great had the gift of seeing the devils and angels and their works. He often reminded the devils of their torment in the eternal fire.
Two devils were talking one day. One of them said to the other: "Zerephere, if one of us repents, will God receive his penitence? Is that possible?" Zerephere said: "Will you allow me to go to old Anthony, who doesn't fear us and find out from him?" The other said: "Go, but be careful, because the elder is a foreseer and he will know you are tempting him and he won't want to ask God; go, maybe you will get an answer."
Zerephere went to see Anthony, changing his appearance to look like a human, and started crying before him. God has hidden from the elder that the man before him was actually a devil in order to let us know that even the devil is welcomed if he would repent.
The elder asked the devil why is he crying so hard and the devil replied:" Oh, Holy Father, I am not a man, but I am like a devil because of my many sins". "Please pray to God to reveal to you if he will receive the penitence of a devil. Because if he will save the devil, then I will be saved as well."
That night, Saint Anthony prayed to the Lord. An angel appeared and said to him: "This is the word of our Lord: why do you pray for the devil? Because he is the one who came to you to tempt you." The elder asked why didn't God showed him it was the devil who came to him.
The angel replied: "Don't be upset about it, because this is a wonderful work of God for the sinners so those who sin greatly will not loose their hope, but will repent knowing that God will not turn away anyone, not even the devil, if they truly repent. So when he will come to you to tempt you, tell him this: 'The mankind loving God will never turn away anyone, even the devil will come to Him. He promises to receive you only if you will keep His commands.' And if he asks what are those commands, tell him this: 'This is the word of The Lord our God: I know who you are and were you came from, tempting us, for you are the old evilness and you can't be new goodness, and because you started the evil in the old days, you can't do good now. How can you be humble and receive mercy when you are used to pride? But, so you won't be able to say in the day of judgment that you wanted to repent, but the Lord didn't receive your penitence, the Lord will receive your penitence - only if you want - by commanding you this: You must stay for three years in a place and, turning towards east, you must shout day and night and say: Lord, have mercy on me, the old evil. You must say this for a hundred times. And another prayer: Lord, save me, the dark deceiver, also for a hundred times. Again: Lord, have mercy on me, the ugliness of desolateness, for a hundred times and shout like this without stopping, because you don't have flesh, you never tire and you are never weak. And after you will do this with a humble thought, then you will be like before, among the angels of God.' And if he promises to do this, then receive his penitence. But I know that the old evilness can't be new goodness. And let this be written for the people in the future, so, by reading this, they will not loose the hope of redemption."

The next day, the devil came looking as a human in despair. The elder told the devil what the angel told him to say.
Zerephere changed his appearance to his normal form, laughed and said: "Oh, monk, if I wanted to call myself the old evil, the dark deceiver and the ugliness of desolateness, I would have done that a long time ago in order to be saved. How can I call myself the old evil? Not a chance. Who would say something like that? Because, until now, I have done wonderful things and all are my servants out of fear: how could I call myself the dark deceiver or the ugliness of desolateness? Not a chance, oh, monk, because I still command the sinners and they love me, I am in their hearts and they follow my will. I don't want to be an old humble slave, oh, elder, I don't want to loose all the praise I am given". After saying this, the devil disappeared. The elder prayed and said: "It is true, oh, Lord, the old evilness can't become new goodness and the one who started evil can't start to do good".
The story was written so no one will loose his hope for redemption because if the Lord is ready to receive the penitence of the devil, then He will receive more happily our penitence.

Forgive me....
 
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All4Christ

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Of course, we always defend the people who shouldn't be speaking in the first place..

But anyway, I for one have issues with some of things Bishop Kallistos says, he does seem to modern. But I do not disagree with what he says here. And not to mention, a Priest has a right to disagree, as well as myself, but a person who is not of the faith, has no say in what anyone should or shoudln't teach..and that is what it comes down to..
The reason I wrote that is that I hate it when people all go against a specific person - no matter who that person is. It is right that we need to address things. But sometimes I would think it would be better to do in private (ie a PM or the such). But then - that's only my opinion.

As far as a priest having a right to express concerns - and us not being able to say something like that authoritatively - I agree. However - isn't it okay if we (catechumens) express our concerns and ask for people to clarify things for us? I for one absolutely need to be able to ask for help on things.
 
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All4Christ

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I don't claim to know everything - and I come here to ask people for their help. I am learning. But one thing that I love about Orthodoxy is that people normally seem willing to help others - and they seem to be forgiving of others. And - I guess this all just rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it shouldn't have - but...yeah. I just know that I need help - and - I am going to try to be quiet about this now.
 
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paleodoxy

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This is not important. I don't know why we put such importance on these things.

17. One day some old men came to see Abba Anthony. In the midst of them was Abba Joseph. Wanting to test them, the old man suggested a text from the Scriptures, and, beginning with the youngest, he asked them what it meant. Each gave his opinion as he was able. But to each one the old man said, "You have not understood it." Last of all he said to Abba Joseph, "How would you explain this saying?" And he replied, "I do not know." Then Abba Anthony said, "Indeed, Abba Joseph has found the way, for he has said: 'I do not know."

I would be more careful before calling someone a heretic.
You have a chance to win the lottery only if you buy a ticket. However, that is hardly enough. You have a chance, very small, but it doesn't mean that you will win. It's the same with the redemption of the devils.

The Prologues are part of the Holy Tradition. They are not just simple anecdotes. There are stories included there to enlighten us and to teach us. These stories come directly from the Holy Fathers.

The story I am talking about can be found in Romanian here, here and in other places. I am sure that it can be found online at least in Greek and Russian.

The text is very long, so I'll make it short:

January 17

Saint Anthony the Great had the gift of seeing the devils and angels and their works. He often reminded the devils of their torment in the eternal fire.
Two devils were talking one day. One of them said to the other: "Zerephere, if one of us repents, will God receive his penitence? Is that possible?" Zerephere said: "Will you allow me to go to old Anthony, who doesn't fear us and find out from him?" The other said: "Go, but be careful, because the elder is a foreseer and he will know you are tempting him and he won't want to ask God; go, maybe you will get an answer."
Zerephere went to see Anthony, changing his appearance to look like a human, and started crying before him. God has hidden from the elder that the man before him was actually a devil in order to let us know that even the devil is welcomed if he would repent.
The elder asked the devil why is he crying so hard and the devil replied:" Oh, Holy Father, I am not a man, but I am like a devil because of my many sins". "Please pray to God to reveal to you if he will receive the penitence of a devil. Because if he will save the devil, then I will be saved as well."
That night, Saint Anthony prayed to the Lord. An angel appeared and said to him: "This is the word of our Lord: why do you pray for the devil? Because he is the one who came to you to tempt you." The elder asked why didn't God showed him it was the devil who came to him.
The angel replied: "Don't be upset about it, because this is a wonderful work of God for the sinners so those who sin greatly will not loose their hope, but will repent knowing that God will not turn away anyone, not even the devil, if they truly repent. So when he will come to you to tempt you, tell him this: 'The mankind loving God will never turn away anyone, even the devil will come to Him. He promises to receive you only if you will keep His commands.' And if he asks what are those commands, tell him this: 'This is the word of The Lord our God: I know who you are and were you came from, tempting us, for you are the old evilness and you can't be new goodness, and because you started the evil in the old days, you can't do good now. How can you be humble and receive mercy when you are used to pride? But, so you won't be able to say in the day of judgment that you wanted to repent, but the Lord didn't receive your penitence, the Lord will receive your penitence - only if you want - by commanding you this: You must stay for three years in a place and, turning towards east, you must shout day and night and say: Lord, have mercy on me, the old evil. You must say this for a hundred times. And another prayer: Lord, save me, the dark deceiver, also for a hundred times. Again: Lord, have mercy on me, the ugliness of desolateness, for a hundred times and shout like this without stopping, because you don't have flesh, you never tire and you are never weak. And after you will do this with a humble thought, then you will be like before, among the angels of God.' And if he promises to do this, then receive his penitence. But I know that the old evilness can't be new goodness. And let this be written for the people in the future, so, by reading this, they will not loose the hope of redemption."

The next day, the devil came looking as a human in despair. The elder told the devil what the angel told him to say.
Zerephere changed his appearance to his normal form, laughed and said: "Oh, monk, if I wanted to call myself the old evil, the dark deceiver and the ugliness of desolateness, I would have done that a long time ago in order to be saved. How can I call myself the old evil? Not a chance. Who would say something like that? Because, until now, I have done wonderful things and all are my servants out of fear: how could I call myself the dark deceiver or the ugliness of desolateness? Not a chance, oh, monk, because I still command the sinners and they love me, I am in their hearts and they follow my will. I don't want to be an old humble slave, oh, elder, I don't want to loose all the praise I am given". After saying this, the devil disappeared. The elder prayed and said: "It is true, oh, Lord, the old evilness can't become new goodness and the one who started evil can't start to do good".
The story was written so no one will loose his hope for redemption because if the Lord is ready to receive the penitence of the devil, then He will receive more happily our penitence.

Forgive me....

This is all anecdotal. Individual experiences in the desert cannot replace the mind of the whole Church. Even monastics could be deceived by Satan - yes, even righteous ones. Buzuxio has already done a masterful job of explaining Origen's influence on a number of early fathers and monastics. I would refer back to his fine post near the end of the last page in this thread.
 
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paleodoxy

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No one here, and not even Met Kallistos, is advocating universal salvation.

Uh, try repentant...

(Pg. 8, Post # 79 he upholds the possibility of salvation for all unbelievers post-Final Judgment.)
 
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paleodoxy

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And the content of Met Kallistos is not teaching universalism, but the same teaching found in St Gregory of Nyssa. And as a point of clarification, you did say that Gregory was heretical in this thinking:

Correct. I did say that, and I stand by it.

There is still a difference between Met. Ware and St. Gregory, which I pointed out earlier. Gregory (et. al. in the East) were influenced by Origen between the lifetime of the latter and the important Christological clarifications and anathemas that were leveled against him in the mid-6th century. Met. Ware is living almost 1500 years after the Council. With greater knowledge comes greater culpability.
 
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Padraig

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We (I) do beg for our own and the world's forgiveness. But the time for the possibility of this forgiveness is restricted to world history before the new creation, and those in Hades prior the Second Coming. In short, it is restricted to the realm of temporality; it does not extend into eternity, for God is the only Eternal One, and transcends all that He created. He is not contingent or dependent on creation. If we adopted this form of universalism you are calling a possibility, we would have to profess faith in another God - other than the one which is confessed in the Creed.
A brief point, if I may. In the Liturgy, during the Anaphora at the elevation of the Gifts, the priest prays:
Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which came[have come] to pass for us: the Cross, the grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again–Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all.
It is within the context of our ascent into the eternal present of God that we pray even for all past, present, and even future. Within the Liturgy, we acknowledge the Second Coming to have already happened. We are in the never ending day of the Kingdom when we pray, and hope for salvation of all, "On behalf of all and for all." The Fathers in Council do not condemn the hope and prayer for all within the Liturgy. As a matter of fact, we might go so far as to say that it is "dogmatized" in the Liturgy. Remember, the Liturgy is just as authoritative as the Councils in regards to Tradition.

I beg you, do not let your reading of the Fathers, laudable though it is, be strictly from your own understanding. Try to take into account the entire life of the Church. Pay attention to the prayers of the Liturgy, listen to the hymns. Let these be your catechumenate. It will deepen, and put into context, any reading that you may do. No one, not Repentant, Met Kallistos, St Gregory or St Isaac are advocating anything contradictory to the lived experience of the Church. They (We) do not believe a heresy, nor do we preach it. We hope, and pray, for the redemption of all creation in the presence of God which has brought all things to fulfillment. He "has brought us up to heaven," the Liturgy says. The prayers and hopes expressed by the aforementioned people are to be looked at from the perspective of the wholeness of Orthodox Tradition, especially the Liturgical life of the Church.

May God bless you, and all who participate in this discussion, and this forum,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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paleodoxy

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Dn Kevin,

Your approach to this discussion is laudable. I admire your patience and and kindness. Thank you.

I am, and will continue to listen attentively to what I am taught in my catechism sessions, seek to be informed and transformed each Sunday through the Divine Liturgy and its Mysteries, and transfigured by the hard road of prayer and theosis in the Life of the Church and among the Holy People of God.

I humbly, however, must take exception to your interpretation of the eschatological meaning of the Anaphora. I do not think this expresses a possibility for salvation after the cosmic end to the temporal world has come. I am sure there are diverging opinions on this issue among individuals within the modern Orthodox Church, but I think Tradition is clear on this, and my priest's perspective falls in line with this understanding as well. I feel that his explanation and understanding best fits the teaching of the Church on this issue throughout the centuries.

With that said, I wish you all the best, and pray that our mutual God and Savior will have mercy on both of us as we pursue the divine mandate to be made holy as the Lord our God is Holy.

With love and respect,
Yours in Christ,
Jonathan
 
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Padraig

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Dn Kevin,

Your approach to this discussion is laudable. I admire your patience and and kindness. Thank you.

I am, and will continue to listen attentively to what I am taught in my catechism sessions, seek to be informed and transformed each Sunday through the Divine Liturgy and its Mysteries, and transfigured by the hard road of prayer and theosis in the Life of the Church and among the Holy People of God.

I humbly, however, must take exception to your interpretation of the eschatological meaning of the Anaphora. I do not think this expresses a possibility for salvation after the cosmic end to the temporal world has come. I am sure there are diverging opinions on this issue among individuals within the modern Orthodox Church, but I think Tradition is clear on this, and my priest's perspective falls in line with this understanding as well. I feel that his explanation and understanding best fits the teaching of the Church on this issue throughout the centuries.

With that said, I wish you all the best, and pray that our mutual God and Savior will have mercy on both of us as we pursue the divine mandate to be made holy as the Lord our God is Holy.

With love and respect,
Yours in Christ,
Jonathan
Then let us part as brothers, in mutual peace, love, and respect. May God richly bless you as you continue in your catechumenate, and may He bless us all.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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However - isn't it okay if we (catechumens) express our concerns and ask for people to clarify things for us? I for one absolutely need to be able to ask for help on things.

It is absolutely ok to express a concern and ask for clariifcation. That is what a katechumenos is...it is another deal all together to preach, say you are right, criticize a Bishop, and call St. Gregory of Nyssa, "Nyssa", like your his buddy calling him by his nickname...
 
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ma2000

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This is all anecdotal. Individual experiences in the desert cannot replace the mind of the whole Church. Even monastics could be deceived by Satan - yes, even righteous ones. Buzuxio has already done a masterful job of explaining Origen's influence on a number of early fathers and monastics. I would refer back to his fine post near the end of the last page in this thread.
After the Second Coming there is no salvation. And considering the second coming is tied to the apostacy and man's sin, its unlikely the devil repents in time before it.
My point exactly. I don't know why you don't understant this, paleodoxy. If you read Saint Anthony's testimony again, you will see that the devils can repent just like humans do. Before the second comming. They will probably not repent. But they have the chance. They can't say before The Judge they didn't have a chance to repent.
http://www.comparativereligion.com/anathemas.html
Maybe you can show me where does it say devils can't repent.

And if it is in the Prologues, it's not anecdotal. It's part of the Holy Tradition.
 
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Uh, try repentant...

(Pg. 8, Post # 79 he upholds the possibility of salvation for all unbelievers post-Final Judgment.)
Reading again the first post in the thread I admit that yes, the words of Metropolitan Kallistos are not welll chosen. You could interpret them in several ways, in a book where there should be no room for interpretation.
But
- Metropolitan Kallistos doesn't openly advocate Universalism. It doesn't say that the devils can repent on their own or God will redeem them out of mercy. He says
or how (if at all)
. That is not something an inquirer into the faith should learn about the Orthodox faith. But we can't call him a heretic.
- Saint Anthony talks about a redemption simmilar to the redemption of humans, before the second comming.
 
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