Redemption of Satan??

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Padraig

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Padraig, with all respect, this is a purely emotional appeal. There were many great and influential scholars and clerics in the history of the church who happened to also preach heresy. It's a pretty common theme throughout the history of the Church, if you look hard enough. Are you implying it is not possible for an esteemed Bishop such as Ware to be deceived?
Actually, it is not an emotional appeal, but an appeal of sense. Met Kallistos has more training. I'm sure he's read the anathemas in the original Greek many times over. I, myself, have read them, and have been trained to read them through seminary.

Where have I claimed to speak for the Church, explicitly or by implication. On the contrary, I have simply taken the Ecumenical Councils at their word on this issue. This is allowing the Church to speak to me, not the other way around.
You've made statements about another member of the board being unOrthodox. You've stated that churches should not use Met Kallistos' books. There are numerous statements that should've been made either differently, or not at all.

Patristic support can be found for all manner of heretical opinion. It is the consensus, and only the consensus of the Church which we are bound to, and where the fathers deviate from that standard, they are teaching heresy, pure and simple.
This sort of proves my point. Someone teaching heresy would not be considered a "Church Father," no matter who it was. Though we may not look to every thing a particular Father writes as authoritative, or representative of the consensus, this does not mean that this material is heretical. To state such a claim shows the lack of understanding that the speaker speaks with. It is almost outrageous.

Have you read the anathemas of the 5th Ecumenical Synod lately?
Believe it or not, I have. And in seminary too!;)

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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Asinner

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Regarding the "Evil, Suffering, and the Fall of Man" in "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Kallistos Ware...I was just reading this...and, well...honestly it didn't, well...seem quite right. Though if the Orthodox Church believes this...I would very much like to know the reasoning - as I realize there are many things that I have seen in a completely different light, due to my Protestant background...



What is this about? Does the Orthodox Church believe that is possible for Satan and the fallen angels, as he puts it, to be reconciled with God??

And for the record - i wish HTML was supported - at least for bolding, breaks, stylizing, etc.

Forgive me if this has been repeated, but what I was taught was that if Satan repented, God would forgive him; however, since pride is what separated him from God in the beginning, this act of humility (repentance) would be impossible for him. Satan cannot mimick humility, for he knows nothing of it. The devil flees from a humble soul.

Love,
Christina
 
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paleodoxy

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Actually, it is not an emotional appeal, but an appeal of sense. Met Kallistos has more training.

So did Arius, Pelagius and Origen. Were you trying to make a point here?

You've made statements about another member of the board being unOrthodox. You've stated that churches should not use Met Kallistos' books.
Padraig, do you think that if St. Photius or St. Palamas were here today, they would approve of using Ware's "The Orthodox Church" for catechumens, in which he confesses the filioque question to be essentially semantical? Do you truly, honestly believe that? You think the Fathers of the Councils would approve of using books with heresy in them to instruct catechumens?

This sort of proves my point. Someone teaching heresy would not be considered a "Church Father," no matter who it was.
Augustine taught heresy, but he was not a heretic. Nyssa was heretical for suggesting Satan could be redeemed, but he was not a heretic. I accept that distinction, do you? Last I checked, they made these suggestions before the Church formally addressed them. Augustine wrote a book of retractions which spared him, and Nyssa's speculations were not part of an overall universalist system of thought dogmatically put forth by him as Gospel truth. Later, the Seventh Council denounced Origen's universalism as incompatible with the Bible by affirming the finality of the Judgment/Resurrection, thus rendering (from there on out) even the mere speculation on this point to constitute heresy.
 
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repentant

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Oh, so now we need a Ph.D. to know the heresies.

No but you are argueing with Paidrag who has alot more training in the Church than you do, as does Bishop Kallistos.

Can you please point to one source that makes the claim that saying demons can possibly be redeemed is heresy? Until you do, quit waving the heresy flag..
 
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Padraig

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So did Arius, Pelagius and Origen. Were you trying to make a point here?
I can only assume by this that you are equating Met Kallistos with these heretics? I hope not. My point is that you have not lived a life in the Church as yet. You've read some books, and that is wonderful. There is more to being Orthodox than reading books. I can only say, that one day you will learn. I hope in that.

Padraig, do you think that if St. Photius or St. Palamas were here today, they would approve of using Ware's "The Orthodox Church" for catechumens, in which he confesses the filioque question to be essentially semantical? Do you truly, honestly believe that? You think the Fathers of the Councils would approve of using books with heresy in them to instruct catechumens?
The question is somewhat incorrect. Would these Fathers have a common language with those who profess the filioque? If they were unified by language I do not believe there would be a problem Were you aware the problem of the filioque was not the filioque itself, but the inclusion of it in the Nicene-Constanipolitan Creed without Ecumenical support? The Latins in Toledo were trying to defend against a rise in Arianism, and so inserted the filioque. It was not the proper thing to do because it tends to subordinate the Holy Spirit, but that was not the intent. Of course you may conclude from this that I've drank the kool-aide as well. So be it.

Nyssa was heretical for suggesting Satan could be redeemed, but he was not a heretic.
. This is your definition. If I may be so bold, you are proving Protestant in your readings, and are not looking at the Tradition holistically. St Gregory was never considered heretical, nor was any teaching of his accused of being heretical. If one teaches heretical ideas, and it comes to the attention of the Church, which it always did because of their writings, then the Church would call the person to recant of the aforementioned heretical teaching.

St Augustine is a different matter. He wrote in isolation from the Eastern Fathers and had little to no contact with them to conform to their teachings. He is recantation was his understanding that he did not have a full understanding of things, and submitted his work to the universal Church. St Gregory of Nyssa, and St Isaac the Syrian taught within the fullness of the Church and so did not need to issue the recantation.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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paleodoxy

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No but you are argueing with Paidrag who has alot more training in the Church than you do, as does Bishop Kallistos.

Can you please point to one source that makes the claim that saying demons can possibly be redeemed is heresy? Until you do, quit waving the heresy flag..

The seventh of the anathemas against Origen:

IF anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed I himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man: let him be anathema.


Now, before you point out that these anathemas do not officially appear in the main body of the actual Synod, look more closely at the reasoning of the above anathema, and notice that the anathema is based on the Incarnation itself (Chalecedonian theology). This is all straight out of the Christology of the Church, as expressed by Chalcedon all the way through the Seventh Council: redemption is only possible through the Incarnation. It is only through the veil of His flesh that salvation is possible. Satan does not have a human nature, and thus cannot be redeemed by the Incarnation.

The logic of this anathema is also linked to the ecumenical denunciation of Origen's universalism and pre-existence of souls by the 5th Synod: if Origen's doctrine of the pre-existence of souls were correct, the fall involved a fall from a higher to a lower mode of being - from a higher spiritual plane to a lower (for the demons), and from a higher to an even lower for humans (physicality). Thus, the Incarnation would be unnecessary to salvation, and repentance could be achieved apart from the God-Man.
 
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Padraig

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The seventh of the anathemas against Origen:

IF anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed I himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man: let him be anathema.


Now, before you point out that these anathemas do not officially appear in the main body of the actual Synod, look more closely at the reasoning of the above anathema, and notice that the anathema is based on the Incarnation itself (Chalecedonian theology). This is all straight out of the Christology of the Church, as expressed by Chalcedon all the way through the Seventh Council: redemption is only possible through the Incarnation. It is only through the veil of His flesh that salvation is possible. Satan does not have a human nature, and thus cannot be redeemed by the Incarnation.

The logic of this anathema is also linked to the ecumenical denunciation of Origen's universalism and pre-existence of souls by the 5th Synod: if Origen's doctrine of the pre-existence of souls were correct, the fall involved a fall from a higher to a lower mode of being - from a higher spiritual plane to a lower (for the demons), and from a higher to an even lower for humans (physicality). Thus, the Incarnation would be unnecessary to salvation, and repentance could be achieved apart from the God-Man.
But this does not address whether or not it is possible for the devil to be redeemed should he choose it. Nothing of God's creation is created for destruction and eternal damnation. The whole created order is created good essentially. We do not believe in utter depravity, even in the devil. We cannot. All Met Kallistos, and the Fathers I have pointed to, are saying is that from the perspective of God's redemptive acts, it is possible -though not necessarily probable- that the devil may be redeemed.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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repentant

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The seventh of the anathemas against Origen:

IF anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed I himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man: let him be anathema.


Now, before you point out that these anathemas do not officially appear in the main body of the actual Synod, look more closely at the reasoning of the above anathema, and notice that the anathema is based on the Incarnation itself (Chalecedonian theology). This is all straight out of the Christology of the Church, as expressed by Chalcedon all the way through the Seventh Council: redemption is only possible through the Incarnation. It is only through the veil of His flesh that salvation is possible. Satan does not have a human nature, and thus cannot be redeemed by the Incarnation.

The logic of this anathema is also linked to the ecumenical denunciation of Origen's universalism and pre-existence of souls by the 5th Synod: if Origen's doctrine of the pre-existence of souls were correct, the fall involved a fall from a higher to a lower mode of being - from a higher spiritual plane to a lower (for the demons), and from a higher to an even lower for humans (physicality). Thus, the Incarnation would be unnecessary to salvation, and repentance could be achieved apart from the God-Man.

What Paidrag said..

And also, look at the last part..

and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man:

It sounds to me as if it says that if anyone says all this, including that Jesus only became man for the sake of man, AND that God did not become Man, is anathema...

This doesn't make sense for what you are trying to say, and almost contradicts you...
 
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Philothei

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The way that dogma was formed in our church was always a "reaction" to an opinion or thesis on something that could harm our salvation. So... since Apokatastasis seems to have ramifications on how we live our lives (if we are all going to heaven why be good then?)for that reason the Fathers condemmed the "apokatastasis". Not all Origin's works were condemened for being heretical, he has writen many other works on spirituality that are worth while.Now are we to "hope" for the salvation of all? I think by praying at memorial services we are actually "hoping" for it. I think that God does not want us to see it like it is "in the bag"...so to speak.
Is the devil going to be saved? we do not know realy but the fathers (do not remember who...) say that the Devil has been so saturated by evil that even if he wanted to he could not since because of his "evil doing" he has been so accustomed to it and his pride would not let him. :scratch:


Now about T.Ware... I would say that to some serious theologians his recent "expressions on faith" (esp. women's ordination...etc.)have been quetionable and critisized by some hierarchs of our Church. Whether his theology is "right" or not we will not find out until he dies and they condemn his works..(sorry to be too harsh but truth be told here). Expressing one's opinion over a "modern" theologian is not qualified as "disrespectful" since the intent is not to disregard him rathe to use "caution" on reading his works. I know (since I am fluent in Greek) that he has certain missconseptions about history..... (I can prove it too ) at one or two points about Greek history. I am also a grad of a seminary....and have extensively study Byzantine, Greek, Russian and European history.

Also to suggest that your parish priest is not well informed Fr. Dn, this is an every day story i know this first hand .... You are right it should not happen but we are all judged of who we are and what we do....I think that realizing we should be respectfull is a great virtue. I do see disrespect on Paleo... The fact he brought it here means that he really did not dwell on it and talked over with his fellow parishioners... That is respect I think. To bring it to the anonymous forum I would say it is not big deal. I do believe there was no bad intent to it.
Forgive me :bow:
God bless,
Philothei:crosseo:
 
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paleodoxy

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I can only assume by this that you are equating Met Kallistos with these heretics?

Equivalent to Barlaam, perhaps.

My larger point is simply that having your head loaded with a lot of facts does not make you a reliable source of Orthodox dogma.

The question is somewhat incorrect. Would these Fathers have a common language with those who profess the filioque? If they were unified by language I do not believe there would be a problem
Maybe, maybe not. I think it is fruitless to speculate here.

Were you aware the problem of the filioque was not the filioque itself, but the inclusion of it in the Nicene-Constanipolitan Creed without Ecumenical support?
Yes.

The Latins in Toledo were trying to defend against a rise in Arianism, and so inserted the filioque.
Right, yet even popes (centuries later) refused its inclusion into the Creed itself. Also, Augustine's Trinitarianism was not driven by the Toledo concern regarding Arianism so much as it was driven by his unique metaphysics, as evidenced by De Trinitate. It was Augustinianism/Anselmianism which ultimately prevailed as the rationale for inserting the clause. But even if this were not the case, the clause is inherently deficient, as the Tomos of 1285 makes clear.

St Gregory was never considered heretical, nor was any teaching of his accused of being heretical.
St. Gregory was not a heretic. I already pointed that out. The content of his speculations regarding Satan were heretical in nature, as the subsequent development of Christology clarified. There is a difference.

If one teaches heretical ideas, and it comes to the attention of the Church, which it always did because of their writings, then the Church would call the person to recant of the aforementioned heretical teaching.
St. Gregory was not defending universalism, and thus his speculations (not assertions) regarding Satan did not fit into an overall system of heresy, as it did in the case of Origen. He was simply inconsistent with himself. Clement of Rome is admitted by the Orthodox Church to have toyed with some heretical notions, but they did not anathematize him, either.

Augustine is a different matter. He wrote in isolation from the Eastern Fathers and had little to no contact with them to conform to their teachings. He is recantation was his understanding that he did not have a full understanding of things, and submitted his work to the universal Church. St Gregory of Nyssa, and St Isaac the Syrian taught within the fullness of the Church and so did not need to issue the recantation.
The point is that all of these men were members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, existing and living within the One Body of Christ prior to any schism.
 
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Padraig

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The way that dogma was formed in our church was always a "reaction" to an opinion or thesis on something that could harm our salvation. So... since Apokatastasis seems to have ramifications on how we live our lives (if we are all going to heaven why be good then?)for that reason the Fathers condemmed the "apokatastasis". Not all Origin's works were condemened for being heretical, he has writen many other works on spirituality that are worth while.Now are we to "hope" for the salvation of all? I think by praying at memorial services we are actually "hoping" for it. I think that God does not want us to see it like it is "in the bag"...so to speak.
Is the devil going to be saved? we do not know realy but the fathers (do not remember who...) say that the Devil has been so saturated by evil that even if he wanted to he could not since because of his "evil doing" he has been so accustomed to it and his pride would not let him. :scratch:


Now about T.Ware... I would say that to some serious theologians his recent "expressions on faith" (esp. women's ordination...etc.)have been quetionable and critisized by some hierarchs of our Church. Whether his theology is "right" or not we will not find out until he dies and they condemn his works..(sorry to be too harsh but truth be told here). Expressing one's opinion over a "modern" theologian is not qualified as "disrespectful" since the intent is not to disregard him rathe to use "caution" on reading his works. I know (since I am fluent in Greek) that he has certain missconseptions about history..... (I can prove it too ) at one or two points about Greek history. I am also a grad of a seminary....and have extensively study Byzantine, Greek, Russian and European history.

Also to suggest that your parish priest is not well informed Fr. Dn, this is an every day story i know this first hand .... You are right it should not happen but we are all judged of who we are and what we do....I think that realizing we should be respectfull is a great virtue. I do see disrespect on Paleo... The fact he brought it here means that he really did not dwell on it and talked over with his fellow parishioners... That is respect I think. To bring it to the anonymous forum I would say it is not big deal. I do believe there was no bad intent to it.
Forgive me :bow:
God bless,
Philothei:crosseo:
Philothei,
I appreciate your thoughts. Just to be clear, I was not suggesting a priest was not informed. As to Met Kallistos (he ceased to be T. Ware long ago), I have not read anything by him that says women should be ordained, only that the Church must answer this question in a manner that does not rely on "that's the way we've always done it." If he has come out in strict support of women's ordination, I would greatly appreciate a link so that I may study it.

In regards to Pale's disrespect of Met Kallistos: I would argue that one should not speak about the trustworthiness (or lack thereof) of a theologian's work unless one has attained some sort of level of experience in order to be able to do so. As to whether Met Kallistos' works will be condemned, there are just as many Orthodox who hold the opposing view: that, in fact, he will be remembered fondly, and his works a staple.

The question of the appropriateness of Pale's posts is not whether or not he brings it to this forum. It is the tone and absoluteness of the position that anyone who holds the view of the possibility of the redemption of the devil is heretical in thinking this. I realize that Pale has not called anyone a heretic, though he did say one of our long-time Orthodox contributors was "not Orthodox." To call the teachings of St Gregory or St Isaac heretical, I would argue is disrespectful, and lacking in patience and understanding.

I do not know anyone's intent, so I hope I have not spoken to it. All I can glean is from the posts I've read. In those posts, Pale has made some categorical claims of heretical thought against members of this board, a ruling heirarch, and certain Fathers of the Church. I hope I have come across as one urging Pale to refrain from the hastiness of these proclamations. If not, I have failed, and I beg forgiveness.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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Padraig

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Equivalent to Barlaam, perhaps.

My larger point is simply that having your head loaded with a lot of facts does not make you a reliable source of Orthodox dogma.
True. And you must admit that neither does reading the Fathers divorced from the life of the Church.

Maybe, maybe not. I think it is fruitless to speculate here.
Yet, you had asked me to speculate, and so I did:
Padraig, do you think that if St. Photius or St. Palamas were here today, they would approve of using Ware's "The Orthodox Church" for catechumens, in which he confesses the filioque question to be essentially semantical? Do you truly, honestly believe that? You think the Fathers of the Councils would approve of using books with heresy in them to instruct catechumens?
St. Gregory was not a heretic. I already pointed that out. The content of his speculations regarding Satan were heretical in nature, as the subsequent development of Christology clarified. There is a difference.

St. Gregory was not defending universalism, and thus his speculations (not assertions) regarding Satan did not fit into an overall system of heresy, as it did in the case of Origen. He was simply inconsistent with himself. Clement of Rome is admitted by the Orthodox Church to have toyed with some heretical notions, but they did not anathematize him, either.
And the content of Met Kallistos is not teaching universalism, but the same teaching found in St Gregory of Nyssa. And as a point of clarification, you did say that Gregory was heretical in this thinking:
Nyssa was heretical for suggesting Satan could be redeemed, but he was not a heretic.
No one here, and not even Met Kallistos, is advocating universal salvation. He, and those of us who agree with him, advocate the hope and the possibility of Satan's redemption.

God bless,
Fr Dn Kevin
 
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All4Christ

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In defense of Paleodoxy - there are multiple priests that I either know personally - or know of from others - who have issues with Bishop Kallistos Ware....It's not only Paleodoxy who sees some of these things.
 
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All4Christ

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Also - I never expected my questions to come to this point of....reproaching...specific people in the forum. It seems like this thread has taken a life of its own - no longer addressing the issue (at least no longer solely addressing it) - but using the thread as a means to....well...not attacking...but definitely an overwhelming number of posts that are against other posters...

So yeah.
 
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repentant

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repentant,

if Satan can be redeemed, then (a fortiori) non-believers can be redeemed from hell post Second Coming. Don't think you want to go there.

Are you puting that beyond the grasp of God? I don't think you want to go there. I am not saying that it will happen, only that we have no say to what God does, and God being merciful to ALL His creation is not beyond His capacity. The fact is if Satan or even one demon out of the billions wanted to repent, we can't say God would not forgive him...I can't recall who it was, but there was one Saint who would even pray for the demons to repent..


In defense of Paleodoxy - there are multiple priests that I either know personally - or know of from others - who have issues with Bishop Kallistos Ware....It's not only Paleodoxy who sees some of these things.

Of course, we always defend the people who shouldn't be speaking in the first place..

But anyway, I for one have issues with some of things Bishop Kallistos says, he does seem to modern. But I do not disagree with what he says here. And not to mention, a Priest has a right to disagree, as well as myself, but a person who is not of the faith, has no say in what anyone should or shoudln't teach..and that is what it comes down to..
 
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Forgive me if I have misunderstood this, but isn't universalism the belief that all will be saved, rather than the belief that all could be saved?
This is basically the difference between Origen and the other Church Fathers who held to a kind of universalism.

But we must keep in mind that even though it is Orthodox to say all have the 'potential' to be saved, to use the early Fathers as St Gregory of Nyssa as a kind of champion of universalism is abit of a stretch. Simply because they arrived at the conclusion by reading Origen!

When one studies the influence of Origens writings on these early Fathers, we know where they borrowed the idea. These ideas are not apostolic but were influences by the writings of Origen and the school of Alexandria.

St Epiphanius of Cyprus was rabidly opposed to Origen's books and made it his mission to condemn them. He is sometimes called a "heresiologist" for weeding out heresies. His two books basically a refutation of heresies (hard to come by , i think just recently translated) is mostly against Origen's teaching.

Many western theologians following Augustine borrowed his ideas but that doesnt make them orthodox even though Augustine is a saint.

After the Second Coming there is no salvation. And considering the second coming is tied to the apostacy and man's sin, its unlikely the devil repents in time before it.

Another example; before the council of Constantinople in 381 ad, many church Fathers held to chiliasm.

As evidence shows the pre-existence of souls and universalism has been condemned by the 5th council.
 
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