Augustine; more or LESS (C)atholic?

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simonthezealot

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Augustine said he wouldnt even have believed in Scriptures if not for the Catholic Church, so to think he would disagree with the Church on such an essential issue is just silly.

Jck since your claiming to know so much bout Aug why don't you share his take on Judas taking part in the bread at the last supper!

Incidently, should other readers take your word on it or are you going to share where you ascertain the information your posting.
 
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simonthezealot

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i dont know where he wrote that about the Catholic Church but I Know he wrote it. perhaps ill search for it later.

No need my point is this, I am showing his work in context, your stating he believed the opposite yet your not quoting him...except snippets of unfound sermons, pieced together, from where I stand your defense of Augustin is not very effective.
 
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Oblio

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No need my point is this, I am showing his work in context, your stating he believed the opposite yet your not quoting him...except snippets of unfound sermons, pieced together, from where I stand your defense of Augustin is not very effective.


St. Augustine said it, your doubt of jckstraw's knowledge of the Saints of the Church is IMO folly and foolishness.
 
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simonthezealot

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St. Augustine said it, your doubt of jckstraw's knowledge of the Saints of the Church is IMO folly and foolishness.
Your opinion is filled with folly and foolishness then!

Augustine did not subscribe to trasubstantiation...
 
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simonthezealot

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I don't know much but wasn't "transubstantiation" a product of the Coucil of Trent - like 1000 years after St Augustine???
Sure, but as followers of the Dr's and fathers of "your church" isn't it your contention that the truth of transub... goes all the way back to John 6? though left undefined until the point in history you've pointed out?

My point here is that it isn't your churches belief that transub.. was a developing doctrine but one known for all ages going back to John 6! yet many doctors and fathers didn't subscribe to that view, Augustin being one of them!
 
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jckstraw72

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Kristos, Oblio and I are Orthodox -- transubstantiation is not a dogma for us. I wouldn't doubt that St. Augustine never wrote about transubstantiation, but he believed in the Real Presence.
 
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Kristos

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Sure, but as followers of the Dr's and fathers of "your church" isn't it your contention that the truth of transub... goes all the way back to John 6? though left undefined until the point in history you've pointed out?

My point here is that it isn't your churches belief that transub.. was a developing doctrine but one known for all ages going back to John 6! yet many doctors and fathers didn't subscribe to that view, Augustin being one of them!
Jackstraw basically already answered this, but no. Orthodox do not accept the Council of Trent nor the dogma of Transubstantiation. I'm not trying to argue for or against it here, merely stating what I think is a fact - that it has not been accepted by Orthodox.
 
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simonthezealot

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but he believed in the Real Presence.
So do I, an almost calvinist, in a spiritual manner anyway! PRETTY VAGUE there! I never suggested he thought it symbollic only!
 
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jckstraw72

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So do I, an almost calvinist, in a spiritual manner anyway! PRETTY VAGUE there! I never suggested he thought it symbollic only!

then what are you saying? perhaps i missed something ... are you saying he didnt believe in teh whole substance/accidents thing?
 
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simonthezealot

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Jackstraw basically already answered this, but no. Orthodox do not accept the Council of Trent nor the dogma of Transubstantiation. I'm not trying to argue for or against it here, merely stating what I think is a fact - that it has not been accepted by Orthodox.
What exactly is different between transub... and Mei...whatever you guys call it!
 
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simonthezealot

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then what are you saying? perhaps i missed something ... are you saying he didnt believe in teh whole substance/accidents thing?
He didn't think it really truly and substantially believe it to be the blood and body, He spiritually thought/believed, i'd say closer to lutherans.
 
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jckstraw72

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He didn't think it really truly and substantially believe it to be the blood and body, He spiritually thought/believed.

how is that different than symbolic?

(although symbolic doesnt reallly mean what we tend to think of it as, its more like making present an unseen reality -- the bread and wine are "symbols" of the Body and Blood bc the reality of the Body and Blood is made present via the bread and wine)
 
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Oblio

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Truly really and substantially I do!;)

Then please explain it to us.

My contention is that you do not understand it. Your online exposition will either prove your don't, or at least get you to actually find out what it means, rather than regurgitating an anti-Apostolic Strawman that you have been taught.
 
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simonthezealot

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Guys here is my point, instead of trying to haphazardly put together his (Aug's) beliefs on transubstantiation I'll say this I am claiming that his view is incompatible with transubstantiation If you read what I have posted from his writings I think this is clear, maybe not open and shut...But the point here is Rome portrays him in a much different light as do you guys I am guessing!

And funny enough the same can be said for a number of areas of studies acknowledged by Augustine.
 
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