Originally posted by papakapp
4c) what do you make of 1 John 2:3 1 John 4:13 1 John 5:13
Don't those verses say we can know for sure?
I think everything else was addressed pretty well, so I'll chime in on this (please correct my goofs anyone)
well, 1 john 2:3
<SUP>3</SUP>We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
Well, the only way you can get assurance from this is if you obey his commands. Sounds simple, right? but the trick is NOBODY obeys his commands. Remember, he made the law more strict, the demands MORE tough to follow (not just adultery, but lust is a sin, not just murder, but hate, etc) so, since no one perfectly obeys his commands, no one can get assurance of there salvation, at least from this verse.
Next, you asked about 1 John 4:13
<SUP>13</SUP>We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
What if we lose his spirit? it's possible, check out Hebrews 6:4-8.
then, the kicker 1 John 5:13
<SUP>13</SUP>I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Look at the beginning of the chapter till here,
<SUP>1</SUP>Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. <SUP>2</SUP>This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. <SUP>3</SUP>This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, <SUP>4</SUP>for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. <SUP>5</SUP>Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God
Note that verse 13 echoes the beginning of this, where it says, everyone who believes is born of God. If you are the children of God, you obey his commands. Uh oh, we already saw were that leads.
Also, why are there so many passages that talk about enduring in your faith? We know from Hebrews 6 that a person can fall away, and be consumed by fire, and if it's possible, it would be wrong of us to say that you can be absolutely sure.
(p.s. this is my take on why I believe a certain way on this, I'm not promising it lines up 100% with RCC teachings.)