What about Baptism?

Originally posted by Auntie
YEEESSSS!! It's as simple as that, Cougan.


We all know the actor, Christopher Reeves, is not a Christian. But what if one day he decides to accept Jesus as his Savior? It is not possible for Reeves to be water baptized because of his total paralysis. Baptism, immersion, would probably kill Reeves, I don't think he could survive baptism. And there are other examples of people with disabilities who, for physical reasons only, are unable to be immersed in water.

Cougan, I'll let you be the one to tell them they cannot receive Jesus as Savior, due to their physical disabilities.

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I beg to differ. I don't know of any disability that one could have that would prevent them from being able to hold their breath for a second or two. I was talking to a guy tonight who was telling me about his dad being on the death bed. He was still alert and new what he was doing and he decided he wanted to talk to a COC preacher. They talked and he realized that he need to be baptized for the remissons of his sins. He could not walk nor could he breath well. They loaded him up and took him to the closest baptistry they could find which was 20 miles away. There was 20 steps leading up to it and they had to drag him up there to get him into the water. It was so narror that they scratched his hands on the brick wall and casued him to  bleed. But them got him into the water and baptized him. Now 4 days later he died. If this man can do it than just about anybody can. Even if you come up with some rare person that cant hold there breath for 1 to 2 seconds I want to know what does that have to do with you? Are you in that disabled state? Is there anything preventing you from being baptized?

Now let me show you some verses that show that we must die with Christ in Baptism to be freed from sin.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? <B>Shall we continue in sin</B> that grace may abound?

2 <B>Certainly not</B>! How shall we <B>who died to sin live any longer in it</B>?

When did we die to sin it was in baptism.

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were <B>baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death</B>?

4 Therefore we were <B>buried with Him through baptism into death</B>, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For <B>if</B> we have been <B>united together in the likeness of His death</B>, <B>certainly</B> we also shall be <B>&lt;I&gt;in the likeness &lt;/I&gt;of &lt;I&gt;His &lt;/I&gt;resurrection,</B>

Notice the conditional statement here IF we have been united together in the likeness of his death THEN we will be in the likeness of his resurrection.

6 knowing this, that <B>our old man was crucified with </B>&lt;I&gt;<B>Him</B>, &lt;/I&gt;that the <B>body of sin might be done away with</B>, that we should <B>no longer be slaves of sin</B>.

7 For he who has <B>died</B> has been <B>freed from sin</B>.

When did we die? It was when we were baptized.

8 Now <B>if </B>we <B>died with Christ</B>, we believe that <B>we shall also live with Him</B>,

Again, notice this conditional statement IF we died with Christ ( in baptism) THEN we shall also live with him.

You see once we get into Christ (Gal 3:27) even if we fall away God never stops&nbsp;loveing us. Nothing can sperate us from the love of God. God loves even the worse sinner and if he or she decides to turn back to God by repenting, praying, and confessing their sins to him they will once again be made whole. God never fails on his promises. If you do not obey him you will perish. God is a very just God and a loveing God. Just think about Uz and how he just wanted to steady the ark but God commanded that only the priest could touch it and him not being a priest died instantly. Did God love Uz? Yes he did, but God keeps his promises and will pass judgement on those who do not obey.

Gal 2:20 "I have been <B>crucified with Christ</B>; it is no longer I who live, but <B>Christ lives in me</B>; and the &lt;I&gt;life &lt;/I&gt;which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

When were crucified with Christ? At baptism.

col 3:3 For <B>you died</B>, and <B>your life is hidden with Christ in God</B>.4 When Christ &lt;I&gt;who is &lt;/I&gt;our life appears, then <B>you also will appear with Him in glory</B>.

When did you die? At Baptism.

2tim 2:11 &lt;I&gt;This is &lt;/I&gt;a faithful saying: For <B>if we died with </B>&lt;I&gt;<B>Him</B>, &lt;/I&gt;We shall also <B>live with </B>&lt;I&gt;<B>Him</B>.&lt;/I&gt;

Again, <B>IF</B> we <B>DIED</B> with him (in baptism) <B>THEN</B> we shall also live with him.

<I>1peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, <B>having died to sins</B>, might live for righteousness -- by whose stripes you were healed.</I>

Yes I am a broken record. When did we die to our sins? At baptism.

In Eph 1:19-23 we see how the mighty working of God raised Jesus from the dead. Then in Eph 2:1-10 we see how through the working of God that we were made alive with Christ. Let's look at this a little closer.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us it together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Now from these verses I want you note that it is through the working of God that we are quickened together with Christ being raised up together. The question is, how are we quickened with Christ or raised up with him? Lets let the bible give us that answer.

Col2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

What did the word of God just tell us? It just told us that when we were baptized that we were buried with him and that we were risen with Christ through the working of God. We also see in verse 13 that is was at the point of baptism that we were quickened together with Jesus and it was at that point that are sins were forgiven. These verses bring great clarity to Eph 2:8-9 because baptism into Christ is not a work of man but a work of God. Let us let the word of God tell us more from Rom 6.

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Wow the word of God is so clear. When did we die with Christ? It was at the point of baptism. When we are baptized into Christ we become a new creature and should walk in the newness of life. Check out how this goes right along with Eph 2:10. See also 2Cor 5:17. Notice in verse 5 that it is not until we are baptized that we get the promise of being in the likeness of his resurrection. Verse 6 again tells us that at the point of baptism our body of sin is destroyed and our sins are washed away just like Paul's. Acts 22:16. Verse 7 again tells us that when we died in baptism with Christ we were then freed from sin. Verse 8 again notice the conditional verse. If you died with Christ in baptism then we have the promise of being able to live with him. As far I can tell this is very clear and easy to understand.

So that there is not confusion I want you to understand that I believe that we are saved by Grace and faith. These are defiantly part of the salvation plan, but they are not the ONLY part of the salvation plan. Repentance, confessing Jesus as Lord and Baptism also save you. It is all these things working together. If you take one of them away you are not saved. I hope that you will reconsider your view and be buried with Christ in baptism today having your sins washed away and being raised up a new creature in Christ being added to the church by God which is Jesus body.

God Bless,

Cougan

Cruel and inhumane. But I am not surprised that the COC would do such a thing.

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Auntie, it wasnt crule the man wanted to be baptized just like the bible says. I suppose you think it was crule when those men in the bible hauled that man upon the roof of the house that Jesus was in and tore the roof off and lowered him down so he could be healed. I guess Jesus was wrong when he commended them on their faith.

It's not my soul, so it shouldn't matter to me???? Is that what you are saying, Cougan?? Coz if you are, then that is a completely selfish statement on your part.

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You can try and twist my words if you want to but that is not what I am saying and I think you know it. All I can tell is what the bible says, and it says you are to be baptized in order to be saved. Now if God makes a exception when he sees someones heart that they would be obedient and be baptized but just can not be that is up to him. This person is not you and there is nothing keeping you from being baptized. So if you want to make your election sure I would highly recommend being baptized with water into Christ. You can take the risk if you want to, it your privilage. We are after all free willed being able to make our own choices. I just choose to follow what the word of God clearly says to me.

I've already been baptized. Have you received Jesus as your Savior? You can't call Him Savior, unless you believe that HE has saved you.

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What kind of baptism? Auntie you know good a well that I teach that you have hear the word, belive that Jesus is the son of God which encompasses knowing that he can save by the cleansing power of his blood, repent and confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized in water haveing your sins washed away and then live a faithful life unto death.

Originally posted by Auntie
Please don't accuse me of trying to twist your words, cougan. Your statement "Even if you come up with some rare person that cant hold there breath for 1 to 2 seconds I want to know what does that have to do with you?", sounds very much like I should not be concerned about a few people here and there who are unable to be baptized, and yet at the same time you insist that water immersion is necessary for their salvation. In another thread, you told me all of my ancestors, who died before the founding of the modern COC, were lost. And then you were quick to tell me I shouldn't worry about them, but instead I should be concerned about myself. So this is the second time you have told me that my priority should be ME. I would call that very self-centered.

Salvation is thru Jesus, period. The evidence of one's salvation is a desire to obey the commandments. If a disabled person is physically unable to actively obey commandments that require physical action, this has nothing to do with their salvation. It is an altogether seperate issue. God's plan for salvation includes all who accept Christ as their Savior, and is not limited to the able-bodied.

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Auntie I NEVER EVER SAID that all your ancestors were lost and NEVER EVER SAID that all people before this modern COC were lost. The church of Christ was founded on the day of Pentacost not before and not after. I have pointed out time and time again that the the church was refered to serveral different ways. It was callled the Tabernacle, church of God, church of the Firstborn, etc. Now if your ancestors were not baptized into Christ then the bible not me teaches that their sins were never washed away. There is nothing you can change about that. If my bibical view is correct they may be pleading just like the rich man was in the story of the rich man and Lazerus. They may be wanting someone to come back from the dead to tell you that you need to baptized into Christ. You know Auntie, I really do hope that my view is wrong, but that is what the word of God speaks loud and clear to me that baptism is when your sins are washed away. You can call me a crazy old coot if you want to but I will not stop proclaiming what I see as bibical truth. I do it because I love you and want to share with you the way I see the bible says you are saved. Because I dont want anyone be found outside the body of Christ.

As Christians we are to look out for our brothers and sisters. We are to try and exhort,edify, and be hospitalble to one another. But when it comes right done to it our brothers and sister can not save us it is ultimatly up to us.&nbsp;

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I would agree with you Aunti Salvation is for the sick lame and health its for everone. Again, I have never said it was'nt. I have never said that you can earn your salvation either. It doesnt matter if you do good works from morning to evening year after year you will never ever earn your salvation. The works that we do are out of obedience to our master. There are only 2 choices you are either&nbsp;a servant of righteousness or a servent of sin. When you made the choice to become baptized into christ you were raised a new creature and a servent of righteousness. If you love your master you will OBEY his commands. Jn 14:15 Because only those that do the will of the Father will enter into heaven Math 7:21. We are to be DOER of the word and not just a herer. Js 1:22. Notice how Jesus tells a story to his disciples that shows the master and slave relationship.

Luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'?

8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'?

9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.

10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "

Now Auntie this thread is about Baptism and not the COC. I relize you were&nbsp;raised up in one and apparently not a very loving one. In fact it seems you want to take our your frustration on me because of the one the you grew up in. I am very sorry that you had such a bad experience with them. Just remember that the COC you went is not the same as the one I am a part of. I know you feel like you have been freed from a burden when you found your new home in the church you go to know. Just keep in mind that I am only proclaiming what I belive the bible says. You are entitled to your opinion as well. I dont expect you to take my word for anything anyways. I would hope that you would search out the scriptures and see if what I am saying is true or not. If you find it false thats fine. I would hope that you would have enough love for me that you would show by the bible where I am hopeless confused. I do look at all the arguements presented and see if there is any logic to them.

Cougan

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Originally posted by Auntie
Yes, you did, right here:

Post #98:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=364915#post364915
"You have to get beyond what your past family members did and start thinking about you. Yes its sad to think of your loved ones that have passed away as being lost, but dont let that hold you back from accepting the truth no matter how hard that might be."




You brought up the COC, not me, when you told me about the poor guy in your post #41:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=398682#post398682

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Auntie at least you provided a link to the post. Because when people read the WHOLE thing they will see that I still NEVER SAID that all those people that were not part of the modern day COC were&nbsp;lost. I can not say if all your ancestors were lost or not because I dont know them or if they were baptized into Christ. I can say that if you ancestors were not baptized into Christ according to to what the bible says to me they were lost. When I was saying that you should'nt be concerned about them was because you can not change their fate. Let me elobrate so there is no confussion. When I say dont concern yourself about them, I mean to the point of where you would rather accept a certain man made view just because your past 5 generations acceppted that view. Even if you see that what I a proclaiming is truth but you refuse to accept it because it would mean codeming your past 5 generations. You see we are to follow the traditions of the apostles. 2 Thes 2:15; 1cor 11:2; 2Thes 3:6 and we are warned not to follow the traditions of man. Mk 7:9,13; Col 2:8; 1peter 1:18. So to make it clear there is nothing wrong with being concerned with them but just dont do it to the point of denying the truth.

So I barely mentions COC as part to the baptism story so you think that opens up the discussion of COC.&nbsp;

I have no frustrations at all Cougan! I'm sorry you think that. My comments to you concerned the physical impossibility of some people to be baptized, that's all. And your response was that it shouldn't be a concern of mine, and that maybe God will make an exception for extremely disabled people. I am not a debater, but if I was, I would try to get you to explain to me how some people can receive salvation without baptism, and other people can only receive salvation thru baptism. If God demands baptism for salvation, then that would be true for all people, not just able-bodied people.

Maybe you should ask yourself, which is the better plan of salvation? One that is of Christ's work on the Cross, or one that is of my self-righteousness? Don't you think God would give us the best? Well, God DID give us the best, that best is Jesus.

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Well, from your post you seem very frustrated. First of all I did not say that he would make a exception. I simply convey the idea IF he does in these RARE instances that is up to him but it has nothing to do with you. Your are not one of these rare instance. How much clearer can I make it. I still dont know of any known phyical disability that a person can have that they can not hold there breath for 2 seconds. Its not like water causes pain if anything someone might be more cofortable in the water. You know I could come up a whole lot of what if question for you to. In fact I already used one in this post. These what if questions are just mere tactic to sidestep this discussion. I want to talk about what is keeping you from being baptized. It is not me that is teaching the idea it is the bible that teaches this concept. Who am I to change the word of God?

God did give us the best his son. You guys just simply are not reading my entire post because I have answered all this stuff before. God did his part he provided the salvation through Christ. Man does his part by beliving and repenting, confessing and being baptized into Christ. We do not earn our salvation we obey and submit ourselves to God. No matter what we do we could never earn salvation but do the things that God wants us to do. And he wants to follow his plan of salvation. That is the best salvation is the one that he prescribes. Which involves being baptized having your sins removed.

I've seen a lot of people on this board get into an endless posting of scriptures, back and to. I don't do that, because it's futile. Cougan, people have already posted a lot of scriptures to you, but you just post back more scripture to refute the other.

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That is sad that you think posting the word of God to show your view is futile. I guess in you eyes I should just except your view just because you think this or think that. I guess you would want me to take what ever verses are given to me as a supposed proof and just accept them without showing other verses that clearly show that their verses are only part of the whole.

If you really want to learn the truth, then you must be wiling to go to another church, at least for a few weeks, go to a Baptist Sunday School class for 4 Sundays. Ask the teacher any question you want. But you won't learn the truth unless you are willing to truely allow your heart to listen. You don't even realize that you have been misled, and I don't say that out of disrespect, but out of love for one who has believed a falsehood. You have said that you wished that my beliefs were correct. That is God himself trying to reach you with the truth, Cougan. Why would you wish that my beliefs were correct, except the Holy Spirit is trying to reach you with the good news? You are looking for something that is right in front of you. Take the scales off of your eyes, and read the scriptures with new eyes and a new heart, a heart that is willing to at least consider that maybe God gave us Jesus to save us, and after that we are given a new heart that wants to please God, a heart that desires to obey the commandments, a heart that is so completely and eternally grateful and thankful to God for Jesus. Can you even imagine HOW MUCH more you would love Jesus, if you knew with all of your heart, that your salvation was TOTALLY dependent upon Jesus, Him and only Him? Praise God, sometimes I feel my heart will burst with joy when I realize the glory and the wonder of the PERFECT plan of salvation, it belongs to Jesus, and Jesus gives it to us.

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If you really want to know the truth you study the word of God. You don't go to some teacher and take their word for it.

2Tim 3:16 All Scripture <I>is </I>given by inspiration of God, and <I>is </I>profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Holy&nbsp;Spirit isnt trying to tell me anything of the sort Auntie. The reason why I wish your view was right is because of my&nbsp;compasion for all those that have&nbsp;been mislead to thinking that all&nbsp;they have to&nbsp;do is&nbsp;belive and say some sinners prayer to be saved. That they dont have to be baptized. As I have stated over and over again the bible clearly teaches that one must be baptzied in order to be saved.&nbsp;Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1peter 3:21,&nbsp;Acts 22:16. I find it&nbsp;very sad that man has allowed man to blind them from the very simple truth of the bible.

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Look at it this way, let's say you have committed a terrible crime, but the Judge decides to have mercy on you, and sentences you to lifetime probation. Now if you follow your probation rules exactly right, you'll never go to jail. But you must be sure to report to you parole officer every week, or you will go to jail. And you must be sure to not travel out of State, or you will go to jail. And you must be very careful whatever you do, because if you slip up, you will certainly go to jail for the rest of your life. Now you are free, or are you free really? Well, at least you're not in jail, but you are not very free. You are very much in bondage.

Now let's say the Judge decides to have mercy on you, but a better mercy. A mercy born of love for you. Into the court room walks a man, and this man is the Judge's son. The son has agreed to take your sentence, and you are free. Say what? Yes, you are free, because the son will serve your sentence in your place. No probation, no parole, no jail. The judgement didn't disappear, the judgement was transferred to another person. Now, the Judge's ruling is final, the paperwork is signed and sealed, it is finished. You walk away a free man. You just escaped Hell and judgement.

Now what did YOU do to receive your freedom? What did YOU do to deserve this forgiveness and mercy? Nothing! Your freedom was BOUGHT for you, stamped PAID IN FULL. Jesus paid it all! Who the Son sets free is free indeed! And what can be your response to this, except to have so much love for Jesus that you just want to praise Him and glorify Him and praise Him some more!! This IS the good news!! Let your heart accept Jesus as your Savior, your Redeemer, your perfect Lamb of God, He did it all for you, Cougan, because He loves you. This is what salvation is all about. [/B]

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Yes Jesus paid it all and we did not deserve it that is called Grace. Man still has is part now doesnt he. The way you have described here no one will go to hell everone will be saved because if there is nothing for man to do on his part than everone is saved. God provided the perfect sacrifice and we can enter into that eternal life if we obey. You see God did his part, we have to have faith that Jesus is the only way to the Father and that our sins can be cleansed by his blood. When we are obedient to the word of God and repent confess and are baptized then we come in contact with that cleansing power of Jesus blood. I have said it time and time again. Its faith, obedience then the blessing. You should really think about what your are saying. Jesus said himself that not everyone that calls him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heven but those that do the will of the Father. Mat 7:21

In response to Ben.

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Ben, your hopelessly confused. When Paul wrote this there was only 1 Baptism but, you claim more than one on one hand then you claim there is only one on the other hand. Talk about multiple personalities. If water baptism was some Jewish ritual then why do it today at all? The kind of water baptism that John taught and the one that was done in the name of Jesus or by the authority of Jesus was not a Jewish custom. The Jews cleansed themselves for the cleansing of their outer body. The water baptism taught by Jesus and his apostles was a baptism that was for the iner man the cleasing of his soul so to speak. That is why Peter tells us that in 1 Peter 3:21 to point out the difference between&nbsp;that Jewish bathing you refer to and the water baptism of the forgiveness of sin.

I believe the HS lead you today to, but it through the word of God. The HS does not reaveal anything new to people today directly. We have the completed word of God and we can learn everything we need to know from the HS in there. If you belive that you have the same HS filled thing going on like they did in the first century you would be able to perform signs to back up what you are saying. You wouldnt even have to study the word of God because he would give you utterence of what to say where I could say nothing against it. Its not hard for you guys to have the same side steping what if questions. They are typical questions&nbsp; given by the people who hold your view. You are either looking over my answers to your what if questions our your ingnoring them. I asked you what does these rare instances have to do with you? Are you in that situation? No you are not and you are with out excuse of why you would'nt submit yourself to water baptism.

Another misunderstanding you have is that there is two different kinds of works. There are works of merrit like under the old law. Then there are works of obedince under the new law, Christ law. If you love your master you will obey his commandments. Not that you will ever earn any merrit but you do it because it is your duty to do.

2 Timothy 2:5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

Here is just one example that Paul gives as an example of our Christian race with our goal being heaven. He calls our christian walk of faith a race serveral through out his letters. Surely you see the imagary of this verse. For an athlete to win they must abide by the rules they have to run all the way around the track. If they cut across the center or get out of their lane or knock the guy down next to them they will be disqualified. That the same as our Christance race we are to follow the rules that is the word of God or we to can be disqualified. If we&nbsp;live a faithfully until death then we can say the same thing that Paul said in the following verse.

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Oh dont want to leave one of your questions unanswered. You asked something like is it the water baptism or the doing it in the name of Jesus that saves you. The answer it is both. Doing somethng in the name of Jesus is to do it by his authority. He authorized in the NT for you to belive repent confess and be baptized by his authority. So all these things are necessary.

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Autie the word of God is something to be shared with everone. I don't think you should hold back from using scripture. By the way I am not trying to argue you with you I am trying to reason with you from the bible, but you refuse to presents my bibical proof of your view. You seem to think that I don't listen to what you are saying but you would be wrong. I look up all the verses within there context to see what they are saying. You will notice that the majorty of the time my post are coupled with scripture. I try only to teach where the bible teaches. You to have the right to belive that you are saved and I hope that you are. I can only present what the word of God says to me. I just wish you would point out your view by scripture and show where I have used scripture incorrectly.

God Bless

We are saved only by faith---we can be disqualified only by unbelief.

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In this statement Ben you are saying that every one that Belives/has faith is saved and by that way only and you are saying that you can only be disqualifed by unbelief.

This makes the demons saved in James 2. They belived after all. Then there was those guy that belived in Jesus but were to scared to confess him I guess they are saved to. Why was Moses not allowed to enter the promise land was it because of his unbelief or because of his actions? Why did lots wife get turned into a pillar of salt was it because of her unbelief or because of her disobedience. Why were the two guys killed for offering a strange fire to God was it because of their unbelief or because of their disobedience? Why was the married couple in Acts 5 killed for holding back a portion of their money from the land was it because of their unbelief or because of their action of lieing. Ben you know good and well that disobedience can disqualify you as well. Why else would you think Jesus would say if you love me you will keep my commandments JN 14:15. Why o why are we told over and over again to do the fathers will and to be a DOER of the word and not just a hearer.