Schrack,
I will let my Gentile wife speak first since she has some of the same problems with the movement as you do.
I think it is because they wish to vaunt their "Jewishness," which would indicate to me that a sense of "Jewish pride" has crept in unawares among their adherents.
That sounds like a judgement call. I think you also sound defensive which is not an uncommon response. I do understand why you feel that way, being a Gentile in the movement myself. It has been very difficult at times for me to not be defensive and judgamental of the movement. The movement, like the Church, is full of imperfect people. I'm not going to deny there is pride in the movement but do you throw out the Church because it is full of problems? Of course not. I am a Christian, so is my husband, but because that term carries a lot of negative conotations for non-believing Jews, we don't use the term. It just means, "little messiah". I say messiah instead of Christ. That is what Christ really means. For us, it really comes to identifying with a people that do not identify with the Church and Christianity at all. I actually quit calling myself a Christian way back in Bible College days when one of my customers at Shoney's where I waitressed asked me what religion I practiced. I replied, "I'm a Christian" As he walked out the door, he flippantly and cynically replied "what does that really mean anyway?" I rarely used that term after that but used the term, follower of Jesus. Now, I find that the term messianic believer actually opens a lot of doors for witness. Most people will shrug their shoulders if you say you are a Christian, but they either have no idea what you mean by messianic or they are not sure or they will have a strong opinion about what you are. Bottom line, we don't call ourselves messianics to lift ourselves above others.
ALL the words spoken by God, and not just the ones that are convenient to carry out (see Deut. 27:26; 28:58).
Yet the Church picks out nine of the ten commandments and follows those? Come on, not all of the commandments apply anymore. The Church follows the moral law but not the cermonial laws. And that's fine, but for the "circumcised" Jewish believers, Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 7:20: "Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called." He never told Jewish believers to stop following the law themselves, he did have a major problem with those who tried to make the Gentiles take on the Jewish calling. Salvation is by grace and grace alone. I may not be adequately answering your questions. I am still learning a lot of this myself. I have had a lot of problems adjusting. But I do know this: as I continue to pray through a lot of these tough issues, God continues to open up my eyes as I read the N. T. in a very different light. We were taught in Bible College to take context and history and audience into account when interpreting Scripture. Yet how much Jewish culture and history is taught? Jew wrote the book and there are many nuances and idioms that have been lost over the years. The messianic movement is restoring that lost Jewish perspective but for me it has taken a lot of humility and prayer to stay with it and really appreciate it. I hope this helps. Peace in Jesus our Messiah, Terri
To continue with this I will give my background as briefly as possible. I believe we need to take this to a new thread if you want to continue, but since you said these things here on the is thread I would like to response here so that if other people have the same feelings or are not sure they can here my side of this. Thanks for your understanding. I, like my wife, have no problem calling myself a christian. I have been apart of the church for 18 years. I went to a Bible College of the Christian and Missionary Alliance and from there attended Baptist, Charismatic, Vineyard, and Liberty churches as well as a Calvary Chapel. We were at the Liberty Church when we felt God call us to be a witness to my Jewish people. So I prayed and asked God what that meant. As time went on he lead both of us to the "Messianic" movement. I had great reservations at first. But in time I saw God leading me more and more. We did not leave the "Church" with any ill feelings, we left because God told us to join this movement. I am a Christian, I will Live as a Christian and die as a Christian and be raised as a Christian, i.e. a follower of the Messiah. The greek work Chirstos means "Anointed" and Meshiach or Messiah means.... you guessed it "Anointed". That means that Christian could be very rightly interpreted as "Messianic".
No, I do not think that Christianity is a new religion just because it is the fulfillment of Judaism. "Traditional" Jews i.e. Jew who do not believe in Messiah Jesus. Are still waiting for the Messiah. And as scripture says "all Israel will be save" when Messiah returns. The OT says that "They (the Jews) will look on Him whom they peirced and morn as for an only son." 144,000 of Messianic Jews are going to turn the world upside down when the tribulation is in full swing. Moses and Eljiah will be the two witnesses that will amaze the world in the tribulation. This does not seem to me to be a "new" religion a new covenant people. Christians are grafted in. In to what the covenant people of God, the Jews.
Romans 11:1
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
and again
Romans 11:28-29
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
and
Psalms 105:8-10
He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
Leviticus 26:43-45
They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD.
I could probably go on for a very long time. But God says the His covenant with Israel is eternal. I am not sure what you understand about eternal but to me it is without end. God has a covenant with Israel forever. If God could break His covenant with Israel, and He can not it would be against His very nature, then what makes you think that He would not break it with Christians. Do you see God somewhere down the line in eternity saying: "Well you know this has been fun but I have other plans now you all are out of here!" NO WAY! Then why would God break His covenant with Israel. I am not saying that all Jews are saved, we are all saved by grace through faith in Messiah. If they do not accept Messiah they are not saved, PERIOD. But God has a covenant with them for their good. He brought them back to the land and at some point in time He will bring a large majority of the Jews during the Tribulation to himself through the saving knowledge of Messiah Jesus.
I am not sure what your idea of grafted is to me it does not mean that the root is thrown out but it is intact and other non-natural branches are put on it. The root, according to Paul, is the Jewish faith. Jesus himself said that not until the heavens and earth pass away not one stroke or dot of the LAW(Torah) would pass away.
Did Paul believe the Law was still valid for believing Jews lets look at Scripture, Acts 20:21-26:
Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. ....
The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.
Here the apostles in Jerusalem are saying to Paul, it is being said that you are telling
Jews to not circumcise their children or live according to our customs. Did Paul say: "Well to tell you the truth; James and Peter, in fact, I am telling them that." No, he did not, he did just as they said to prove he was not saying that. Paul and the Counsel did say that the Gentiles did not have to do Torah to be saved, since it is not doing Torah or being Jewish that saves someone but faith in Messiah.
Else where in the book of Acts Paul circumsizes Timothy, oops, if you loose your salvation by getting circumsized then poor Timothy is a goner. No it is not the act of circumsion that is the problem it is Gentiles who are doing it as part of their salvation.
I guess I could go on and on but I probably have already gone on too long. Please forgive me everyone. Mr. Moderate please accept my apologies if I have gone on too long or went into an area we should not being going here. I just felt that if this was brought up here to all the people reading this it should be answered to the same people. I believe if this discussion needs to continue, now that both of us have had our say, it should be in another thread, unless it is OK with you to continue.
I would like to ask forgiveness of anyone I have offend with my first post. I am a emmissary to my people, the Jews, and I tend to write as if one of them will be looking in, especially on a forum that is deemed interfaith.
Love in Messiah,
Yeshuaskin