So what are we?

1tim1

15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal

life.



I like to consider those in Christ as sinners saved by His Grace, because even after we are saved by our faith in Him, we still sin and fall short of the law, but we are justified through Christ.


romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

You were a sinner now saved by grace. Being saved doesn't mean you are born again [not in my estimation]. When you are born again, the very Life iof Christ Jesus indwells you. Reveal Him. That is a process called, the way of the cross. Your justification and new birth imputes "sainthood" to you, for you to become faithful in Christ Jesus. (Gal2.20; Eph.1.1 KJV trans only please)

Jesus ...His life, the way of the cross >>> work of the cross.

The new born by Him, by the work of the cross >>>>>> is for us to become as he is by, the way of the cross. [self-renunciation]

Imana said:

I'm trying to understand this and have the correct perspective as well.

I hear this alot from Christians: "I'm a sinner saved by grace."

To me, a sinner is one who is without Christ, who lives in and sins day in and day out. One who is devoid of spiritual life and power, is a slave to the lusts of the flesh and is in bondage. A christian is just the opposite of this. Right?

So my question is how can we be sinners and christians at the same time? According to Romans chapter 6, this is not so.

Even though I'm the righteousness of Christ, I'm still a sinner saved by grace???? Or is this something that christians say in regards to being humble and not wanting to come across as being better than everyone else?

Also, whenever I hear this, it makes me think about whether or not us saying that we're sinners saved by grace is the reason why the devil repetedly wins over us. We don't recognize who we are yet or what our position is in Christ.

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the "sinner saved by grace" title is far from biblical. It's based on a lie that is covered up by false humility [AKA guilt]. The bible has many names for a Christain, all of which are uplifting. i'll name a few

1. A son/daughter of the living God
2. A royel preisthood
3. a Saint

there is alot more... but I kind of don't wanna take the time to look em all up.

Imana said:

So my question is how can we be sinners and christians at the same time? According to Romans chapter 6, this is not so.

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Just because we have the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we won't sin. The Holy Spirit is there for us only if we tap into His power. Unfortunately, we try to accomplish things on our own power. That is when we fail miserable.

Even though I'm the righteousness of Christ, I'm still a sinner saved by grace???? Or is this something that christians say in regards to being humble and not wanting to come across as being better than everyone else? Also, whenever I hear this, it makes me think about whether or not us saying that we're sinners saved by grace is the reason why the devil repetedly wins over us. We don't recognize who we are yet or what our position is in Christ.

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Actually, a TRUE believer will have the Spirit of God dwelling inside him FOREVER. We can either utilize the Spirit's power inside us or we can grieve or quench Him. We can not lead a holy life on our own strength. God calls us to live in the power of the Holy Spirit (ie. to "be filled" with the Holy Spirit). This is a daily thing. Unless we come to God DAILY in utter worthlessness and impotancy, we will always 'stumble' toward self-will (vs. God's will).

I like Paul Washer's statement, "We have assurance that we have come to know Him not just because one time we have repented, but we are continuing to repent today..."

Just because we have the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we won't sin. The Holy Spirit is there for us only if we tap into His power. Unfortunately, we try to accomplish things on our own power. That is when we fail miserable.

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This is good but weak. It is a matter of wrong perspective when say we "tap in to His power" for success in life.
If He is our life and we fail, then it is a matter of forgetting who we are. By that we "quench" His life, albeit forever how long we live in forgetfulness..

Christians are sinners:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:8-10 KJVA)

Ormly said:

This is good but weak. It is a matter of wrong perspective when say we "tap in to His power" for success in life.

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Who said anything about success in life?

If He is our life and we fail, then it is a matter of forgetting who we are. By that we "quench" His life, albeit forever how long we live in forgetfulness..

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Listen, a true beleiver will be sensitive to sin...If he is not, then he is not a true believer. PERIOD....BTW, I didn't say "snuff out", I said quench. There is a difference.
.

darceri said:

Who said anything about success in life?

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I did! If we are in Him and He is in us, it is His LIFE I speak of. Only one nature is to survive and it must be His. Get my drift now?

Listen, a true beleiver will be sensitive to sin...If he is not, then he is not a true believer.

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Indeed. Did you really understand anything I wrote? Wake up!

.... PERIOD....BTW, I didn't say "snuff out", I said quench. There is a difference.
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Well, so did and, so did Paul: "Quench not the Spirit". 1 Thessalonians 5:19 (KJV)


Now what is it you want to add?

Oblio said:

Christians are sinners:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:8-10 KJVA)

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I don't think being a saint = claiming to be without sin.
Masked_Chris summed it up. Those 3 are good titles. We're no longer sinners, but saints, though we're not without sin. It's not like we want to sin, right? Doesn't that mean something?

Ishida said:

I don't think being a saint = claiming to be without sin.
Masked_Chris summed it up. Those 3 are good titles. We're no longer sinners, but saints, though we're not without sin. It's not like we want to sin, right? Doesn't that mean something?

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Holy Scripture (presented before) tells us that we sin, ergo we are sinners. If we were not sinners we would not need God's mercy and salvation. This modern idea that we are not sinners anymore is post modern foolishness and unknown in orthodox Christianity. If we are not sinners, why do we need to confess and repent as Scripture tells us ?

Oblio said:

Holy Scripture (presented before) tells us that we sin, ergo we are sinners. If we were not sinners we would not need God's mercy and salvation. This modern idea that we are not sinners anymore is post modern foolishness and unknown in orthodox Christianity. If we are not sinners, why do we need to confess and repent as Scripture tells us ?

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What is the difference in the meaning between the words, "imputation" and "impartation"? Secondly, What qualifies the two with regards to our relationship with God?

I think we are mixing up category distictions. Having fonud salvation in Jesus Christ, positionally we are now righteous, holy, pure and blameless. However, we remain here on earth, and that means that we have a problem of our actual reality, which is we still have a sin nature, we do still sin, thus we are also sinners, saved by grace.

From the heavenly perspective? Pure, righteous and holy, blameless in the sight of God. Because we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, and received the imputation of HIS righteousness.

From the practical, daily, human perspective? We are still sinning, and that means we are nothing more than sinners, saved by grace.

Oblio said:

Christians are sinners:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:8-10 KJVA)

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Bump.

We are sinners saved by grace, ie we have been redeemed, given sanctifying grace that empowers us to become what we were redeemed to be, true children of God, righteous and holy as He is righteous and holy.

We, by nature are sinners, we are drawn to sin, it is what is natural to us, hence we call ourselves 'sinner' but the grace we have in us is sufficient to overcome the fallen flesh and become something beautiful for God.

This takes a whole lifetime to accomplish. And when we fall away and do sin, we get up, confess our sin and get back on the road that ends in holiness. Day by day we should all be growing more and more in this grace, into the image of Christ.

It's called theosis, where we put off the old and put on the new and the process of this does not end until we are in heaven with God, aka, SAVED.

Read more of John, take the verse in. If anyone says he is not a sinner, he is fooling himself and the truth is not in him.

We are all sinners but we are all in the process (or should be) of transforming the sinner into a saint. When we sin, we interrupt this process and we have to repent, turn from the sin and begin again.

Ormly said:

Can we make a better distinction by stating it this way: We are made children of God by virtue of the new birth of Christ Jesus, empowered by Him to become son's of the Father, Jesus being the first Divine Son, the first of many sons?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God ..." John 1:12 (KJV Trans)

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And the use of the word "become", means just that... become, we become the children God adopted us to be, righteous and holy. We are not made that way after the new birth, we were given the grace that accomplishes it.

Do we all still sin? Yes we all do, hence we weren't made holy, we become holy through the reception of and cooperating with grace.

Hey all. As I see it, we were sinners, and through His grace we were set free and empowered over the entanglement of sin. To really appretiate the gravity of this, one must look at all things God through spiritual eyes first. "Sinner" biscribes the state of ones heart(soul), and I think we all know the state of our spirits before Christ. Paul had an amazing insight of the kingdom of God (his letters were peices of his revelation), he knew about being born again, for this os how he described the process. Once we recieve Christ, our spirits are transformed into His likeness, completely! On the other hand our soul's (mind,will,emotions) renewal remains incomplete, this is why we are still prone to sin. It is the 'new inner man' that works within our soul to make sense of who we are and to ruin the works of the devil in our lives, which is Christ's ministry. Whoa, bigger subject than I first thought!

Benedicta00 said:

And the use of the word "become", means just that... become, we become the children God adopted us to be, righteous and holy. We are not made that way after the new birth, we were given the grace that accomplishes it.

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No and No. Becoming a son of God is what He is after. A son is a matured child. Childhood is by birth, imputation. Son-ship is a learning process, impartation. This not agruable. Jesus is our example in this. The Holy Spirit is our tutor.

Do we all still sin? Yes we all do, hence we weren't made holy, we become holy through the reception of and cooperating with grace.

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However, His HOLY Nature is imputed, to us upon our being "begotten again" in Him; our new birth.

Again Jesus is our example.

This might clear things up:
Concerning Adam and Jesus


Concerning Adam and Jesus ..... Orm



“God does not merely forgive our disobedience; he calls us to obedience, and to a life completely centered in Him.”……. a thesis of William Law


The question has been many times asked, “Why did God create Adam if He knew Adam would fail”, which begs another question: “Fail at what”? Answering the second question will help explain the reason for asking the first one.

Let’s look at this passage from Hebrews that pictures what Paul readily saw and understood and, as a result of that revelation understanding, wrote all his letters with it as central to his perspective:

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,” Hebrews 2:9-11 (KJV)

We can see that ‘many sons for Father’ is the reason for creation and procreation would be the only means they would ever come into existence. We know that because “procreation ‘r’ us”. God would not nor could not individually create us as did He the Angels who have no redeemer nor can ever have one. If in doubt about that ask the question: “How many redeemers would be needed for each of God’s fallen creatures, if He created them all individually? Moses was commanded to strike the ‘rock’ once. Never again is the ‘Rock’, Jesus Christ, to be smitten for mankind nor need He be because He died once, for all. We know that is true and we will one day see the single set of nail prints in His Hands as an eternal testimony of that fact. The Disciples saw them first on that day in the upper room. [John 20.27] Only one set could and will ever be in His Hands. “And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:5-6 (KJV)


Knowing that Adam would fail was certainly in the foreknowledge of the Father, however, Father still had to; was compelled to, follow through with His “soon to fail” creation while and at the same time, make provision for its redemption. Make no mistake about this: Adam was given humanity to its fullest degree/strength; a superhuman degree for a test Adam alone must pass in his own strength. No one could come to his aid in this. It should be understood and remembered that at this time Adam was not divine in anyway. Though he came from Hand of Divinity; Divinity formed him from dust to shine in innocence, there was not a speck of Divinity in him. He was all man could be, short of Divinity. Keep in mind he was NOT perfect. Only Divinity can ever be perfect. However, Adam was “perfectly innocent”. Innocence that needed to be groomed-tutored; to be filled with “Perfection”, the result of moral choices given him that would have accomplished the task, i.e., his transfiguration. The eating of the Tree of Life whereby he would have lived forever as God intended would have been his instead of the cruel tree needed for his redemption, suffered upon by the second/last Adam, Jesus…. Human Divinity demonstrating the Character of God would have been consummated. “It is Finished” would have been the words of Adam.

Saying this does not mean procreation would have ceased for realizing God’s ultimate intention because it was still to be the means for birthing sons and bringing them into Glory. Obviously the “new birth” or second birth would not have been needed had Adam succeeded in passing his test.

This is not about self-righteous flesh accomplishing anything for or in God but flesh totally submitting to the will of the Father as Jesus later demonstrated by His life… and for the same reasons.“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (KJV). This was spoken by Christ, the Word of God, not the Son of God. The Son of God was in “hypostatic” union with Jesus; begotten human flesh as “son of man” who later, by His obedience, became transfigured. The transfiguration of Jesus was His graduation day! It was the heavenly testimony of accomplished perfection in the life of a *born sinless man and because of His obedience He is now the new Christ of Glory …. Glorified Human Flesh and Bone in Union with the Throne of God. …Consummated as the Ultimate Intention of the Father, from the beginning of the Himself. And yet not consummated as King of Kings and Lord of Lords until all His enemies are made His footstool. Until then He sits at the right hand of God pleading our case before the Throne of Grace.


Adam never enjoyed what we now can when we sin, i.e., an advocate with the Father. When they all died, the righteous of God could never enter into the presence of God because of the penalty of Adam’s transgression but were consigned to paradise; God’s holding tank, to await the Blood of the Lamb that would set them free.


Four thousand years mankind had to wait for such an advocate who, “in the fulness of time” another Adam, born not created and filled with God’s own Nature, that by His allegiance to the Nature His Father for success in the task given Him, not only redeemed mankind but demonstrated how we can do the same and must, that we overcome as He did. Jesus showed us the “way” of the cross before ever going to it to do the “work” of the cross which now, by His resurrection as proof, enables us who are faithful in Him, Christ Jesus. [Eph 1.1] (KJV only)
* Jesus had to be born and NOT created. He could not have been created because creation was completed; finished after the six days of it. There is no new creation except by His Spirit.............

Oblio said:

Holy Scripture (presented before) tells us that we sin, ergo we are sinners. If we were not sinners we would not need God's mercy and salvation. This modern idea that we are not sinners anymore is post modern foolishness and unknown in orthodox Christianity. If we are not sinners, why do we need to confess and repent as Scripture tells us ?

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"were" sinners, this sounds past tense to me. Are we really no different then atheists? What is our spirit? Sinner or saint? Honestly, I say we are what God considers us.