our free will vs God's predestination

Well done brother!

There are many arguments against "Predestination" and in favor of "free will". You can cite virtually any book of the Bible against it.

First, there is the question of "does God call EVERYONE?" The answer is an emphatic "yes". In John 6, verse 44, "No one comes to Me unless the Father draws him"---the word, "draw", means "drag forcibly"; yet in Jn12:32, Jesus plainly says, "I will helkuo-drag all men to Myself". The whole thing is explained nicely in Jesus' parable, Matt22:2-14. IN that story, the wedding feast is Heaven, and by the end everyone ended up getting invited. Who were "saved"? Only those who CAME. And not all of them---only those who CAME (received the invitation), AND clothed themselves with righteousness. Knowing this is a PARABLE, nevertheless verse 14 ends with, "for MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN". Knowing also that this parable applied to Heaven and salvation, do you really believe Jesus wasnt clearly stating, that MANY are called who are NOT CHOSEN? Is this really a deniable point?

Now, if God CALLS-DRAWS-DRAGS-EVERYONE, what differs between one who is SAVED, and one who is NOT? Does Scripture indicate that it is GOD'S decision, or MAN'S? The one thing that differs, is belief. The predestinationist claims that "belief is ENABLED (or CAUSED) by God"---but there is nothing in Scripture that insinuates God's machinations in our belief. Plenty of verses that say things like, "obtaining as the OUTCOME OF YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9). Paul eloquently deals with it in Rom10. Do we agree that "faith-unto-salvation" is identical to "belief-unto-salvation"? Then, "faith comes from HEARING the Word of God. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."

The universal availability and sole requirement of receiving the gift of grace, is summed up nicely in Rom5:17-18: "For if by the transgression of one, death reigned through the one, much more those who recieve the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign through Jesus.
SO THEN, as through one transgression came condemnation to ALL MEN,
EVEN SO through one act of righteousness came justification of life to ALL MEN." The predestinationist claims that the FIRST "all men" (pas anthropos) is somehow DIFFERENT from the second "all men" (pas anthropos). Because of their SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE/REVELATION they can discount the two "ALL MEN" 's as not meaning the same. Ignoring, of course, the clear context: "SO THEN, EVEN SO". PAUL is stating they are IDENTICAL. Justification came to ALL MEN.

Now we come to many, MANY verses that speak of "abiding, enduring, persevering" in salvation. Verses like Col1:21-23, Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14, 10:36, 1Tim4:16, and even Jesus' own words of Matt24:14 & Lk21:19. The Predestinationist must interpret these Scriptures (of which I have listed only a FRACTION!), as "EMPTY WARNINGS---only hyperbole, exageration for effect but not to be taken literally. Why then are they WRITTEN, if they are EMPTY WARNINGS? To WHOM does Peter warn, "resist the devil who prowls about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may DEVOUR"?

Now we (if we are to accept Predestined-Election) must de-fuse the "true apostasy" Scriptures. The biggest of course is 2Pet2:20-22. That passage uses the exact same Greek words (apophuego epignosis etc) as chapter 1 of the same letter (1:1-4)---but because of our special and mystical revelation of PREDESTINATION we KNOW that the SECOND use of the SAME WORDS means something DIFFERENT---IE, they were never saved. Some claim that "the ESCAPED ones were the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS"---to those, I gently remind them that the False ones never cease from sin (vs 14), they are slaves of corruption (vs 19)---they never escaped from nuthin'. But the ONTOS-APOPHEUGO (Greek for "truly escaped"), through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE (epignosis) of the LORD and SAVIOR (these guys WEREN'T SAVED? WHAT?!), they are again entangled & overcome, etc. THEN they say, "Well, they never really lost salvation!" This in conjunction with the premise that "you can be BACKSLIDDEN, living in CONTINUAL SIN but you're by-golly-STILL-SAVED!" To which I gently remind them of Jesus' own words, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad produces good; you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT". And John's words in 1:3:4-10, "By THIS the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed". Harmonizing perfectly with Paul (saying THESE PEOPLE AIN'T GONNA GO TA' HEAVEN) in 1Cor6:9-15, Gal5:19-20, and whoeverwrote Heb, 10:26ff...

And of course, James5:19-20: "BRETHREN, if any of YOU wanders from the TRUTH, and another lead him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins." First the predestinationist claims, "They weren't REALLY saved"---I gently remind them it says, "BRETHREN, if any of YOU"; then they say, "Well, they only BACKSLID but OBVIOUSLY they were BROGHT BACK so they never really FELL!" To which I gently say, "saved a SOUL (Greek: Psuche, same word as in Rev20:4) from DEATH (Greek: Thanatos, death-and-Hell). You see? Predestination just doesn't hold water.

There are many other "fall-from-salvation" verses too---like, Gal5:4, 1Tim4:1, 2Tim2:11-13, 2Jn1:7-9 (see 1Jn5:12-13), and many more.

Jesus' words, "you did not choose Me but I chose you" (Jn15) and Paul's words "He chose us from the beginning" (Eph1) are easily accomodated in the whole context of "He chose us from the Cross, on the CONDITION of our belief"---remember the parable of Matt22. And passages such as 2Thess2:13 clearly say "chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH"---through our own, voluntary, faith/belief/receiving-Christ.

Taken as a whole, "Predestined-Election" just doesn't stand up.

We are saved, because we voluntarily believe (Jn1:12,6:40). God desires ALL to be saved (1Tim2:4), if we believe we are saved (Rm10:9-10), if we ABIDE we REMAIN saved (1Jn4:15-16&Jn15:6), but we must be DILIGENT about our CALLING and our ELECTION (2Pet9-11) that we MAKE IT TO HEAVEN!

(Some have actually said, "Oh PETER wasn't saying you wouldn't GO, only that those who do NOT have the fruits and have FORGOTTEN their purification will not have the EISODOS-GATE of Heaven ABUNDANTLY provided but it will still BE provided!" Oh yeah? "You will know them by their fruits." Jesus lied, or exaggerated? No He didn't...

I'm sorry, Aaron, you'll hafta reject the majority of the NT (and much of the old) to hold to Predestination...



@ Reformationist...

We have specific examples of God's call and perfect use of many people in scripture. We also have non-specific, hard to understand hypothetical, no named people that we insert into scripture. What am I talking about? Named People: Moses, Abraham, John, Paul and on and on. No named people: Brother, you, they, them, those........

To identify something as important as God's nature, try using the named ones, form an understanding of How God calls, equips and uses people.

IMHO, this is at the heart of why some see this issue one way and others see it another way. We have solid, from beginning to end, examples of How God works in our lives, using the specific examples of people (with names), throughout scripture.

Why not take one of these, pull it apart and see if it reveals God's nature in election. Perhaps another thread?

Blessings

Originally posted by eldermike
Why not take one of these, pull it apart and see if it reveals God's nature in election. Perhaps another thread?

Blessings

Click to expand...

That's a great idea Mike.  I offer Joseph as one of the most poignant examples of God's sovereign control in the whole Bible.

God bless,

Don

Originally posted by Ben johnson
The one thing that differs, is belief. The predestinationist claims that "belief is ENABLED (or CAUSED) by God"---but there is nothing in Scripture that insinuates God's machinations in our belief.

Click to expand...

Really, check this out:

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for His sake

Do you think Paul was talking to everyone?  Well, let's see who the letter was addressed to:

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Now, do you think that those saints thought that their ability to believe in God came from anyone other than God?

If you would just read the Bible and not apply so many preconceived notions as to what the Word means in it's totality you would see that the entire theme of the Bible is God's sovereignty in everything He does.  Give one example of someone who "chose" God before God chose them.  What about the Jews?  What did they do to become God's chosen people?  Were they this huge, powerful nation like Palestine at that time?  What about Abraham?  Was he some righteous guy that God thought, "Hey, that guy would be perfect because he's already really into me."  No.  The Jews were not a huge nation, and Abraham was a godless pagan.  Did God have to convince Abraham that he was going to be "God's guy?"  Uhhh...I don't think so.  It went something like this, "Leave your family, your home and go over here.  I'll make you great.  I'll bless you.  I'll make your name great."  Did God say, "Hey, how does all that sound to you?"  I don't think so Ben.  Let me guess.  Abram, in his godlessness, was just sitting around one day and he said, "Hmmm...I think I'll start worshipping the God of the Jews.  That'll make me into a great nation."  And then what?  It happened like that?  Who do you attribute that to?  Abrams "free will?"  Yeah, right. 

Justification came to ALL MEN.

Click to expand...

You see, new2calvin, what Ben fails to realize is that this statement makes no sense.  I have never heard of a Christian who thought that all men were justified.  Let's try and figure out what "justified" means:

Acts 13:38,39
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;<SUP> </SUP>and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Now wait a minute?!!!&nbsp; I thought Ben said "justification came to ALL MEN."&nbsp; This verse seems to say differently.&nbsp; Not that everyone is justified, but that all who believe.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,&nbsp;

Let me guess...since we are justified by faith all men have faith too Ben?

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Why the necessity to be so specific as to who God justifies?&nbsp; Is it everyone as you claim?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; It's those He predestined (oh that's right, you don't believe in that either) and called.&nbsp; This verse says that those God justifies He also glorifies.&nbsp; Tell me Ben...are all men glorified as well?

We are saved, because WE VOLUNTARILY BELIEVE

Click to expand...

Take a close look here and judge for yourself whom Ben gives credit for his salvation.&nbsp; Is it God's grace, or is it our work?&nbsp; I'll just let you figure that one out on your own.

I'm sorry, Aaron, you'll hafta reject the majority of the NT (and much of the old) to hold to Predestination...

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, Aaron, you'll hafta reject the entire Bible, and a neat little thing&nbsp;called context, to not believe in Predestination.&nbsp;

@ Reformationist...

Click to expand...

&nbsp;

God bless

Originally posted by eldermike

To identify something as important as God's nature, try using the named ones, form an understanding of How God calls, equips and uses people.&nbsp;


Blessings

Click to expand...

I did just that in another thread.&nbsp; His name is Judas Iscariot.

Niether here nor there, however.&nbsp; I really don't understand what you're saying?&nbsp; We're only supposed to pay attention to how God used individual's and not when God warned them collectively?&nbsp;

Where in the Bible does it say to interpret it that way?

Michelle

Mis, Shelby,

I offered a method of study. I didn't say to ignore anything. This is about a different understanding, it's clear that we read the same scripture and come away with different understandings of it.

Josh McDowell has a method I like also and so does Buddy Owens. These methods are not described in scripture anywhere but they are useful methods of study.

Josh McDowell has determined that the first few verses in Pauls episitles are doctrine, the middle is instructional but must be understood only by measuring the instruction against the doctrine. I have found that to be very useful.

Buddy Owen suggest that we read 10 minutes and then write down one thought and pray on it. I also find that method very useful.

The method I suggested is to use the real people in scripture to find the nature of God. I find it useful.

To me what is not useful is to make lists of scripture from all over the bible to support a point. That point might not be correct doctrine. We can use this method to support any possible doctrine so therfore, I reject it.

If you would try my method you might be drawn away from Judas as your example. You might come to the conclusion that Jesus explined that He used Judas to fulfill the scriptures. You might discover that telling us this was necessary because it didn't fit any other model we have for God's election and use of People.

Blessings

That's fine. I'm all for ways to get closer to God. Understanding the nature of God's love and how I can grow spiritually through those methods of study are 'a' okay by me.

But I disagree with the notion of taking one Epistle at a time and coming up with a doctrine. Or even meditating on one or two Scriptures? To define doctrine? Wouldn't that be more for our personal and spiritual growth?

I would think that in defining doctrine, especially salvation doctrine, we should take the Bible as whole and carefully blend the Scriptures to a healthy balance of what Scriptures mirror or harmonize with eachother, instead of taking one set of Scriptures to an extreme.

Just my opinion, though

Michelle

Abraham is another good example of God's predestination. God chose Abraham to be the father of the Jews physically and spiritually. God told him how it was going to occur also but still Abraham had to try it his way. But still God was faithful and it occured as He said it would.

But Joseph is a great example also because I can understand why his brothers hated him. But God chose him for a specific purpose and nothing, not his brothers, Potiphars wife, or even the Pharoah could stop it. Heck many of the OT heroes were jerks but God chose them anyways and God used them anyways. I think it is cool because we can learn that it is God who is good not that we are good.

blackhawk

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Abraham is another good example of God's predestination. God chose Abraham to be the father of the Jews physically and spiritually. God told him how it was going to occur also but still Abraham had to try it his way. But still God was faithful and it occured as He said it would.

But Joseph is a great example also because I can understand why his brothers hated him. But God chose him for a specific purpose and nothing, not his brothers, Potiphars wife, or even the Pharoah could stop it. Heck many of the OT heroes were jerks but God chose them anyways and God used them anyways. I think it is cool because we can learn that it is God who is good not that we are good.

blackhawk

Click to expand...

I agree completely bro!

God bless,

Don

Ben,

I have read all of your post but I do not want to speak about it all because I think that I will get confused with all the points. But i want to know what you think is the reason that we believe? What makes it so that we can believe? I agree with you that to be saved we must believe but how can we believe is the real question.

Michelle,

The process you describe is called rightly dividing the truth.
But let me try an example.

In Galations Paul begins with doctrine .

GAL 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So, By a work of God I am rescued. Rescued means saved. Saved by God.
Ok, now I have that so I can go on. Is God going to change His mind? Did He say my rescue is conditional?

Chapter 1: Paul tells us He did not make up His gosple. The law preachers are making false claims against Him. (Perhaps saying that they will go to hell over this grace thing He's talking about) Let's see if this holds up.

Chapter 2: Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. (It held up)

Chapter 3: GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Paul now tells them that they are being tricked. That because the law preachers are telling him that sin will send them to hell they are back under the law.

Chapter 4:
GAL 4:1 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Paul now tells us that God has made us heirs by His work.

Chapter 5:

GAL 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Now He tells us that if we try to live as slaves to the law we must keep the whole law. (which is impossible) He tells us all about the fruits of sin and Spirit. But not to make us afraid of our salvation but to explain why living under the law is impossible.
He tells the alternative:

GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

So we can relax, not to sin but to be assured that we need not listen to the law givers.

Chapter 6: Let us not tire of doing good. Paul builds up the weary because they had lost hope in the grace of God.

Galations is about grace. The precieved example of "falling away" are in the context of describing how it is to live under the law. They are against the opening doctrine in the first place which is the reason to look further into it.

If we take small chunks of Galations, Hebrews, Cor. whatever and make lists of what we can and can't do are we rightly dividing the truth? The truth has context.

Blessings and peace to you.

Blessings

But Joseph is a great example also because I can understand why his brothers hated him. But God chose him for a specific purpose and nothing, not his brothers, Potiphars wife, or even the Pharoah could stop it. Heck many of the OT heroes were jerks but God chose them anyways and God used them anyways. I think it is cool because we can learn that it is God who is good not that we are good.

Click to expand...

Yes brother!
Amen

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Abraham is another good example of God's predestination. God chose Abraham to be the father of the Jews physically and spiritually. God told him how it was going to occur also but still Abraham had to try it his way. But still God was faithful and it occured as He said it would.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't we be remiss if we didn't also remember that Abraham was obedient?

But Joseph is a great example also because I can understand why his brothers hated him. But God chose him for a specific purpose and nothing, not his brothers, Potiphars wife, or even the Pharoah could stop it. Heck many of the OT heroes were jerks but God chose them anyways and God used them anyways. I think it is cool because we can learn that it is God who is good not that we are good.

blackhawk

Click to expand...

What we can learn from he story of Joseph is what has been referred to as 50/20 vision from Genesis.

What they meant for evil God used for good.

Michelle

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
Wouldn't we be remiss if we didn't also remember that Abraham was obedient?

Click to expand...

But he was also very disobedient.&nbsp; That is why we have Ishmael.&nbsp;But even though he was disobedient God still used him and did what He siad He would do.&nbsp;

What we can learn from he story of Joseph is what has been referred to as 50/20 vision from Genesis.

What they meant for evil God used for good.

Michelle [/B]

Click to expand...

True God meant it for good and not evil.&nbsp; It was in God's plan.&nbsp; I think this supports predestination though so I do not see your point.&nbsp;

Originally posted by Blackhawk&nbsp;
But he was also very disobedient.&nbsp; That is why we have Ishmael.&nbsp;But even though he was disobedient God still used him and did what He siad He would do.&nbsp;

Click to expand...

This tells me that disobedience has a cost.&nbsp; It doesn't tell me that it was in God's plan that he have an affair with his Haggar.&nbsp; If I had an affair on my husband, do you think that would be a part of God's plan or would that be flagrant disobedience?

True God meant it for good and not evil.&nbsp; It was in God's plan.&nbsp; I think this supports predestination though so I do not see your point.&nbsp;

Click to expand...

It means God can take evil and use it for his own good.&nbsp;He can do it through anyone he wants but I don't see how it fits the notion that some people are predestined to be saved.

Michelle

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
This tells me that disobedience has a cost.&nbsp; It doesn't tell me that it was in God's plan that he have an affair with his Haggar.&nbsp; If I had an affair on my husband, do you think that would be a part of God's plan or would that be flagrant disobedience?

Click to expand...

So you think God is not sovereign?&nbsp;&nbsp;It was against God's moral will but God in His sovereign will&nbsp;gave us a choice to obey Him or not and we choose to disobey Him sometimes.&nbsp; But God is still faithful even though weare not.&nbsp; So it was in His sovereign plan.&nbsp;

It means God can take evil and use it for his own good.&nbsp;He can do it through anyone he wants but I don't see how it fits the notion that some people are predestined to be saved.

Michelle [/B]

Click to expand...

Well I think it shows that God chooses people not based on who we are but for His own purposes.&nbsp; Joseph was not a good guy.&nbsp; At least that is not how I see him portrayed in Genesis until the very end.&nbsp; But by that time God had done what He had purposed to do with Him and God changed his heart so he could show compassion on his brothers.&nbsp;

I guess I would have to ask you why did god choose Moses when it seems clear that he was not the most logical choice of the brothers?&nbsp;

Originally posted by Blackhawk&nbsp;
So you think God is not sovereign?&nbsp;&nbsp;It was against God's moral will but God in His sovereign will&nbsp;gave us a choice to obey Him or not and we choose to disobey Him sometimes.&nbsp; But God is still faithful even though weare not.&nbsp; So it was in His sovereign plan.&nbsp;

Click to expand...

God is sovereign, but we are not pawns in a Holy Chess Game.&nbsp; Just because He knows ahead of time what will happen does not mean that He&nbsp;orchestrates it.

Well I think it shows that God chooses people not based on who we are but for His own purposes.&nbsp; Joseph was not a good guy.&nbsp; At least that is not how I see him portrayed in Genesis until the very end.&nbsp; But by that time God had done what He had purposed to do with Him and God changed his heart so he could show compassion on his brothers.&nbsp;

Click to expand...

Joseph wasn't a good guy?&nbsp; I thought he was.&nbsp; I can't remember anything he did wrong.&nbsp; As far as him forgiving his brothers, have you ever had to forgive somone of a serious offense?&nbsp; It's not easy.&nbsp; God does help but we have to make a choice to forgive.&nbsp; Forgiveness is a choice, and sometimes it's a very difficult process.&nbsp; If it were a simple matter of a change of heart snapped into us by God, it would be easy and what would we learn from it?

I guess I would have to ask you why did god choose Moses when it seems clear that he was not the most logical choice of the brothers?&nbsp;

Click to expand...

Okay you've lost me.&nbsp; Moses had brothers?

Michelle

Really, check this out:

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for His sake

Click to expand...

Charizomai---
1) to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to,
gratify
1a) to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
1b) to grant forgiveness, to pardon
1c) to give graciously, give freely, bestow
1c1) to forgive
1c2) graciously to restore one to another
1c3) to preserve for one a person in peril
Perfectly harmonious with, "God provides salvation for ALL, on the CONDITION of belief/faith/receiving-Christ"...

You see, new2calvin, what Ben fails to realize is that this statement makes no sense. I have never heard of a Christian who thought that all men were justified. Let's try and figure out what "justified" means:

Acts 13:38,39
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Now wait a minute?!!! I thought Ben said "justification came to ALL MEN." This verse seems to say differently. Not that everyone is justified, but that all who believe.

Click to expand...

Thank you for validating my view, perfectly and eloquently, and by using Scripture!

Romans 5:18 says "Justification CAME to ALL MEN"---it does NOT say "all men are justified", just that it is THERE FOR all men. Romans 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness..."---we seem to be in agreement! Only those who RECEIVE JESUS/BELIEVE/HAVE-FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION, only THOSE are justified!!!

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Click to expand...

Well, those who are SAVED He certainly called---but what of the verses that say, "Many are called who are NOT chosen"? If He calls EVERYONE, then alotta CALLED, are not CHOSEN. How then does predestination work? According to predestinationists, ALL the called WILL believe...

But i want to know what you think is the reason that we believe? What makes it so that we can believe? I agree with you that to be saved we must believe but how can we believe is the real question.

Click to expand...

The predestinationist claims "belief/faith-to-salvation" is installed by God---akin to the "removing their stone hearts & replacing them with flesh in Ezk36:26"---yet, in the parallel passage, Ezk11:19-20, verse 21 follows: "But as for those whose hearts go after abominations and detestable things, I will bring down their conduct upon their heads"---whoops! So much for God ARBITRARILY and UNILATERALLY installing flesh-hearts! He only does that for those who TURN TO HIM and give up abominations & detestable things!!!

Then, too: "THEY made THEIR (OWN) hearts like stone so that they could not hear the law and the words which the Lord of Hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the Lord of Hosts..." Zech7:12

Romans 1, specifically vs 19&20, says "God made Himself evident to them, and God is seen in what He has made, so they are without excuse". If God reveals Himself to every man, if God calls every man, if God desires every man (woman & child) to be saved, then the offer is UNIVERSAL, not predestined. Why do some of them not choose it? "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil." ALL MEN? It doesn't say that---those who are convicted by hearing the Word, and believe (Rm10:17), who receive Jesus (Jn1:12), who love light rather than dark, these are saved---through their own faith.

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. (because) You are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do the desires of your (evil) father!" Jn8:43-44

They WANT to serve darkness rather than light.

Entirely, completely, from the start to the finish, from the beginning to the end, belief by volition! Please read, right now, Deut30:15-19---Do you see it? Always and forever a choice---therefore CHOOSE LIFE!

If we take small chunks of Galations, Hebrews, Cor. whatever and make lists of what we can and can't do are we rightly dividing the truth? The truth has context.

Click to expand...

Claro que' si!!! But you missed 5:4---do you really think, "You who seek to again be justified by works, you have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you have FALLEN FROM GRACE"---do you really think that is "empty bugbear", hypothetical negative rhetorical, "I'm only SAYING this as ILLUSTRATION but you can't REALLY be LOST??? I think he meant what he said...

Wouldn't we be remiss if we didn't also remember that Abraham was obedient?

Click to expand...

You're awesome, Miss Shelby! Does anyone think Abraham had no choice when Isaac was demanded as a sacrifice? Abraman most certainly did. Yet he responded by faith---by his OWN faith!

So you think God is not sovereign? It was against God's moral will but God in His sovereign will gave us a choice to obey Him or not and we choose to disobey Him sometimes. But God is still faithful even though we are not. So it was in His sovereign plan.

Click to expand...

Predestinationists cannot imagine that God, in His sovereignty, can allow free will. If faith is from ourselves, please read 2Tim2:11-13, and explain to me how faithful God will keep saved unfaithful us? That passage clearly exposes the consequences of us "turning from Him"---and it is not couched as an "empty bugbear", "meaningless hyperbole"...

BTW, where in Scripture that says "God's WILL", where is the word "Boulema" (DECREE) used, and where is "Thelema" (DESIRE) used? (Hint: Jn6:40 is "thelema"...)

So we can relax, not to sin but to be assured that we need not listen to the law givers.

Click to expand...

Here is the problem---we canNOT relax. Peter sternly admonishes us "to excercise diligence about our CALLING AND our ELECTION, that the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven BE provided to us!!! (Read this in CONTEXT! 2:1:1-11)

Often passages of this sort (Gal5:18---"IF you are led by the Spirit"---a CHOICE!) are intended as encouragement---just as Heb10:39 is encouragement, and it follows right after, "You have NEED of endurance, that when you have DONE the will of the Father you may receive the promise". And earlier, same chapter: "Do not throw away your confidence (JESUS!)". Earlier still, "how much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of truth?" And a few verses back, "let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, holding fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for He is faithful), ...for if we continue sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire which consumes adversaries."

Do you see? Pulling 10:39 outta context makes you think "predestination", totally ignoring the ENTIRE REST OF THE CHAPTER! And all of Heb 10 is warning about "falling from Christ, falling from salvation"...



Scoreboard:

Responsible Grace......................Predestined Election
..........10,000..................................................0...............