A little confused on baptism

winsome · Oct 23, 2007

3. Eph 1:13-14
In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; (Eph 1:13)

Is Paul saying that the only thing we need for salvation is to hear the word of truth and believe in Jesus, or that when they heard and believed they were then automatically marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit? No, he doesnt say that. Those things may be needed but he doesnt say that are all that is needed. Remember he is not writing a theological treatise here.

Lets look at some other scripture.

Jesus said Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. (Mt 28:18-20)
So Jesus is saying teach and baptise. So that we have to hear the word of truth, yes, but be baptised as well. Now Jesus also said
The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned (Mk16:16) So Jesus is saying we have to believe just as Paul said in Eph 1:13, but he also said we must be baptised

So a fuller picture is hear the word, believe and be baptised. Hence we read in Acts that when the jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved, Acts records:
They answered, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. They spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. At the same hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and his entire family were baptized without delay. (Acts 16:31-33). You see there were the three same elements, hearing the word, believing and being baptised.

Take my point about being made an adopted child of God, a co-heir with Christ, to which you quoted Eph 1:13-14)
In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as Gods own people, to the praise of his glory.
This does not explicitly say that we are made children of God co-heirs with Christ. It does imply we will be - the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as Gods own people.

But what does Galatians 3:26-29 say?
for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams offspring, heirs according to the promise.
There it says we are children of God now and heirs with him now. And it clearly links that to baptism, baptism with water, not spirit baptism. Note he says baptised into Christ, not baptised by Christ. It says clothed with Christ not clothed with power, or clothed with the Holy Spirit. This is not the same thing as the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Consider the phrase from the above quote As many of you as were baptised into Christ. Where else does Paul use that phrase baptised into Christ? In Romans 6:3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Again a clear reference to baptism in water.Paul here is referring to the practice of baptism by descending into a pool of water (buried with him by baptism into death). A clear reference to the Jewish mikvah which was a pool in the ground used for ritual washing. And again the result is newness of life.

(contd)

winsome · Oct 23, 2007

4. Born From Above
Jesus answered him, Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.Nicodemus said to him, How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mothers womb and be born? Jesus answered, Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3:3-5). And I dont think it matters whether you say of water and Spirit, or of water and of Spirit).

The King James Bible and NIV use the term born again rather than born from above. The Greek word anathonen in the New Testament is normally translated from above, although it can mean again. In the KJV it is only translated again in this one passage, otherwise it is translated from above. So this usage of being born again seems somewhat dubious. Indeed Jesus interplay with Nicodemus relies to some extent on this double usage, with Jesus meaning born from above, but Nicodemus taking it as born again and not understanding how he could be born twice literally. Moreover the born from above ties in with Jesus being the one who comes from above (verse 31).

Jesus says we have to be born from above (v3) and indicates how this is to be done in verse 5 born of water of and of spirit. Some attempt to spiritualise the water in various ways (and get very strained trying to do so) but we also have to consider the context of this conversation in Johns Gospel. He places it after Jesus own baptism in the Jordan and before Jesus himself baptises others in the Jordan. Attempts to spiritualise the water in being born of water and Spirit just do not work.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Jn 3:6)
What does Jesus mean here? There is not room to go into a whole lot of detail. What is born of the flesh is referring to our un-regenerated state, our natural earthly state before baptism. What is born of the spirit is spirit refers to our regenerated state, our transformed state by the power of the Holy Spirit in baptism.
Paul says But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 6:11)
And..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)
And Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4).

Paul tells us in Romans 9:8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. It is in baptism (with water) that we are made children of God (see my points on Eph 1:13-14 above)

Schroeder · Oct 23, 2007

winsome said:
2. Baptism With The Holy Spirit
At the beginning of Marks gospel there is a remarkable line of scripture. John the baptiser appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Mk 1:4). You might think what is remarkable about that? Well, you can search the Old Testament in vain for any example of someone baptising like John. So where did John get the practice from? This does not appear to have been some fanciful invention of Johns. It was acceptable to the strict Pharisees and to the Scribes Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea were going out to him, and all the region along the Jordan, and they were baptised by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism (Mt 3:5-7).
Indeed there was some expectation that the herald of the Messiah would baptise. They [the Pharisees] asked him, Why then are you baptising if you are neither the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the prophet? (Jn 1:25)

The immediate context is the mikvah or bath used for ritual cleansing. Mikvah means a gathering of water and so a river is a mikvah. Since rivers were not commonly available it was any suitable pool of water, but not a free standing bath in the modern sense. It had to be dug into the ground, or built into the structure of a building and should contain rainwater with a minimum of 77 gallons. For the previous 150 years (after the last book of the OT was written), purification washings had been regularly practiced by various groups, notable the Essenes from Qumram. Many scholars think JTB was an Essene or has been influenced by them. I understand that it was common practice among many, includingt he Paharisees to go through such ritual washing before entering the Temple, and that, at the time of Jesus, there were over 30 such mikvahs in the Temple area. But such purification washing goes back much further, right back to the time of Moses.

There seem to be three occasions where a mikvar is required in Leviticus, those involving birth (including sex and menstruation), death (including skin diseases) and coming into the presence of God. They seem to be a reminder of our uncleanness and the need for purification. So the mikvar also became a symbol of repentance, of expressing faith that cleansing was available and of asking for it. I am told by Messianic Jews, who know much more about this than I do, that when the evangelists translated the concept ritual washing in a Mikvah into Greek the didnt use the Greek word for bath because it had associations with communal and licentious bathing, homosexuality and gossip. They used baptismos instead.

We know that the word baptism is used in luke to refer to his death and ressuerection, meaning it wasnt about water, but what the word means to immmerse overwhelm ect. We know JTB said I baptism with water, meaning dip or immerse with water. If it referred to what you say he would not have mentioned the use of water, it would have been redundent. He says i baptize with water but the one after me will baptize with the spirit. meaning he will immmerse you with the spirit. unlike him who immmersed with water.

When we find John baptising, and later Jesus and his disciples, it is in a river (mikvah) for ritual cleansing, the forgiveness of sin. All this would have been very familiar and understood. So when JTB wanted to refer to something new and not understood the new outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel he cast it in terms that they did understand. Saying that Jesus was going to baptise with the Holy Spirit was just a metaphor for a new thing that was going to happen through Jesus (through his death and resurrection), the fulfilment of the promise in Joel.

It was a new thing that was going to happen but as i pointed out it couldnt have been a metophor JUST by the way he speaks of it. And as NICO seems to show, they the preists dont get the idea of a purification without water, the water NEVER purified them, what is needed was a new purification that TRUELLY did purify us.

We can see this again in Lukes gospel and Acts which overlap and record the same event. Luke says in 24:49 And see, I am sending upon you what my Father promised; so stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high. Now we dont take this to mean that they are literally going to get new clothes. We take it as a figure of speech, a metaphor. Now take the same speech in Acts 1:4-8) While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. This, he said, is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;

the clothed theme is used alot and if we read all of them it speaks ONLY of the SPirit. it is the SPirit that clothes us and makes us NEW. we take off the old clothes (sinfull nature) and put on the new clothes( the Spirit) coll 3:1-14. rom 13:14, and others. It is the baptism of the SPirit that is the giving of this NEW clothes. it deals with your sins by removing the curse of sin being death.

You see, it is the same thing the promise of the Father, receiving the Holy Spirit, only this time Luke uses the term baptised with the Holy Spirit, rather than being clothed with power. But it is just another figure of speech, a metaphor to refer to the something new that they had not experienced.

True and as i said they are the same thing and DO ACTUALLY HAPPEN its not a metaphor of what is going to happen. It may be a metophor in words but not in action. Clothed in power is a metaphor of baptized with the Spirit.

The practice of baptism with water continued post Jesus ascension and into post apostolic times because it had a different purpose to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It was not done to clothe in power, but for forgiveness of sin, for example And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptised, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16).

It did but not for sins or to receive GRACE. it was for association and possibly sympolism of there spirit baptism. outward expression of a inward action. I read in Jn. 4 and 7 that we are given the SPirit which is spoken of has rivers of flowing water. In titus it is refered to as a washing of regeneration. The spirit is refered to this in the old testement as well.

It gives us new life in Christ Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4).
Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Col 2:11-12) This clearly links a spiritual circumcision with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision but a spiritual one.

the word baptism here means literal IMMERSION. when we are immersed INTO christ we are IMMERSED into his death. which is LITTERALY TRUE. Its called being born again. whne we die we are raised with him just as he was ROM 6:6-14, 8:11. Paul is NOT speaking of water baptism he is speaking about our sinfull nature and be saved from it or being born again. as Jn. 3:3-8 speaks of. SO it is with those born of the Spirit. the Spirit gives the SPirit.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit that we call Baptism in the Holy Spirit was a new thing. That to continued in NT times and beyond because it has a different purpose, it is how we are clothed in power to serve. Through baptism we are made children of God. Though the outpouring of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to serve as adults, no longer infants fed on milk, but adults fed on solids as St. Paul says in 1 Cor 3.
The baptism of the SPirit does both. It is becasue we have the SPirit in us that we are children of God Eph 1:13-14. Rom 8:5-10

But before we can become adults, or even infants, we have to born from above. But before I turn to that I just want to comment on Eph 1:13-14

(contd)

the baptism of the SPirit does both. We are children of God when the SPirit is in us. eph 1:13-14

sunlover1 · Oct 23, 2007

Schroeder said:
well thank you its good to know my post are somewhat readable. I am not good at grammer or punctuation or spelling ect. I will try to get this done sometime this week or just respond to winesome.

Your posts are perfectly clear.

I applaud both of you guys for the work
here.

This is a very enlightening study, and
can help many to recieve that liberty
that Jesus our Lord purchased for us.

God bless you all,
sunlover

winsome · Oct 23, 2007

Schroeder said:
We know that the word baptism is used in luke to refer to his death and ressuerection, meaning it wasnt about water,

I don't know that! Where does it say that?
Luke 3:21 - when Jesus was baptised in the Jordan?

Come on Schroeder it wouldn't hurt to give references when you claims like this.

Schroeder · Oct 23, 2007

winsome said:
I don't know that! Where does it say that?
Luke 3:21 - when Jesus was baptised in the Jordan?

Come on Schroeder it wouldn't hurt to give references when you claims like this.

i believe it is in luke 11 or 7 or 17. I dont have a bible right handy. But it says you cannot be baptized with the baptism i will be baptized with, or at least close to this. I figured you knew it well enough to know sort of where it is. well i looked it up and it is in mark 10:39 luke 12:50.

Schroeder · Oct 23, 2007

winsome said:
3. Eph 1:13-14
In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; (Eph 1:13)

Is Paul saying that the only thing we need for salvation is to hear the word of truth and believe in Jesus, or that when they heard and believed they were then automatically marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit? No, he doesnt say that. Those things may be needed but he doesnt say that are all that is needed. Remember he is not writing a theological treatise here.

well looking at rom 10:8-18 It think he does. SOO yes he does say that. Lets look at acts 10 and then acts 15:7-8 which discusses acts 10. "... that the gentiles might hear from my lips the GOSPEL and believe., God knowing the HEART, showed that he ACCEPTED them and gave them the Spirit. It says he even purified there hearts by faith not water baptism.
Lets look at some other scripture.

Jesus said Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. (Mt 28:18-20)
So Jesus is saying teach and baptise. So that we have to hear the word of truth, yes, but be baptised as well. Now Jesus also said
The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned (Mk16:16) So Jesus is saying we have to believe just as Paul said in Eph 1:13, but he also said we must be baptised

See using the wrong references. Mt. 28 is saying go make disciple baptizing(joining immersing)them into the name of.... this could be either preaching the gospel or having preached it to them, they accept and are joined into the Church or body 1 cor 12:13. ITs not water baptism becasue there is NO reference any where else to make this claim. mark 16:16 look up Jn. 3:18, jn. 4:13-14 and 7:37-39. JTB claiming Christ would baptize with the SPirit. of course we must believe and be baptized. we must believe on Christ and be baptized by Christ. which is why it say if you do not believe you are condemned. you WILL NOT be baptized by Christ in the SPirit if you dont believe. WHY because God knows the heart. as acts 15:8 says.

So a fuller picture is hear the word, believe and be baptised. Hence we read in Acts that when the jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved, Acts records:
They answered, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. They spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. At the same hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and his entire family were baptized without delay. (Acts 16:31-33). You see there were the three same elements, hearing the word, believing and being baptised.

Thats true but which baptism, water, suffering, or the SPirit. the only thing i see water baptism for is association AFTER they believed. PAUL and Peter where asked what needed to be done and they both said BELIEVE and you will be saved. the whole water thing was ALWAYS AFTER this fact. It never once states it as before salvation or for salvation.

Take my point about being made an adopted child of God, a co-heir with Christ, to which you quoted Eph 1:13-14)
In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as Gods own people, to the praise of his glory.
This does not explicitly say that we are made children of God co-heirs with Christ. It does imply we will be - the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as Gods own people.

I dont see the use of inheritance TOWARD in any of my bibles. i see "the earnest of our inheritance" and "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance." I dont think it IMPLIES. it says having believed you were marked. i have given examples of this taking place acts 15:8 and Christ saying if you believe on me... gal 3:2,14 says what. if you believe you will receive what. The SPirit.

But what does Galatians 3:26-29 say?
for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams offspring, heirs according to the promise.
There it says we are children of God now and heirs with him now. And it clearly links that to baptism, baptism with water, not spirit baptism. Note he says baptised into Christ, not baptised by Christ. It says clothed with Christ not clothed with power, or clothed with the Holy Spirit. This is not the same thing as the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Yes through Faith. there is no place in scripture that says faith includes water baptism. FOr one there is no faith in your sinfull nature you have your sinfull nature untill the SPirit is in you. Rom 8. When scripture speaks of clothed it speaks of your new nature or being born again of the Spirit. It reads as as many as were IMMERESED(baptized) into Christ.... Doesnt Jn 3:6 say that the Spirit GIVES THE SPIRIT. doesnt 1 cor 12:13 say For we were all baptized BY one SPirit. OR by on SPIRIT we were all baptized INTO the body. Verse 27 nOW you are the body of CHRIST. NOTICE it finishes with the same statement whether jew or gentile greek.... we are all given the one SPirit. again what does Jn. 3:6 says the SPIRIT GIVES THE SPIRIT. It is the baptism of the Psirit. FOr when one is gicven this baptism they become like Christ and are clothed or born again with the SPirit.

Consider the phrase from the above quote As many of you as were baptised into Christ. Where else does Paul use that phrase baptised into Christ? In Romans 6:3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

YES this is true and it means the same thing IMMERSED or joined.

Again a clear reference to baptism in water.

Paul here is referring to the practice of baptism by descending into a pool of water (buried with him by baptism into death). A clear reference to the Jewish mikvah which was a pool in the ground used for ritual washing. And again the result is newness of life.

(contd)

NOT a clear reference as i have shown the word baptism has a couple of meanings. context c\shows which one it referes to. not just water baptism or spirit baptism but also what the word actually means immerses or to dip. if it is to dip it will show us with what. as in JTB baptisms and acts 10:47 are two good examples. If as you say it is really the word that means water baptism mikvah then they would not need to reference the need of water for us to know which baptism it is referenceing. I think you use the word baptism( makeing it mikvah) to interpret scripture instead of useing scripture to interpret the word baptism.

Schroeder · Oct 23, 2007

winsome said:
4. Born From Above
Jesus answered him, Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.Nicodemus said to him, How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mothers womb and be born? Jesus answered, Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3:3-5). And I dont think it matters whether you say of water and Spirit, or of water and of Spirit).

i dont think so either really you make reference to the word "AND" and how it makes two things together yet in Titus 3:5 the word "and" seperates two things. and never mind the very next verse.

The King James Bible and NIV use the term born again rather than born from above. The Greek word anathonen in the New Testament is normally translated from above, although it can mean again. In the KJV it is only translated again in this one passage, otherwise it is translated from above. So this usage of being born again seems somewhat dubious. Indeed Jesus interplay with Nicodemus relies to some extent on this double usage, with Jesus meaning born from above, but Nicodemus taking it as born again and not understanding how he could be born twice literally. Moreover the born from above ties in with Jesus being the one who comes from above (verse 31).

good

Jesus says we have to be born from above (v3) and indicates how this is to be done in verse 5 born of water of and of spirit. Some attempt to spiritualise the water in various ways (and get very strained trying to do so) but we also have to consider the context of this conversation in Johns Gospel. He places it after Jesus own baptism in the Jordan and before Jesus himself baptises others in the Jordan. Attempts to spiritualise the water in being born of water and Spirit just do not work.

NO he doesnt. this verse is speaking to what NICO had just said. speaking of not seeing how one can be born TWICE. Taking it out of the context of the passage doesnt work either. I dont spiritualise it. I use the rest of the passage to see what he is trying to say.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Jn 3:6)

What does Jesus mean here? There is not room to go into a whole lot of detail. What is born of the flesh is referring to our un-regenerated state, our natural earthly state before baptism. What is born of the spirit is spirit refers to our regenerated state, our transformed state by the power of the Holy Spirit in baptism.
Paul says But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 6:11)
And..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

So you say he totally blows off what NICO was trying to understand or say. And flesh does not give birth to flesh in the since your speaking of it as. FOr one is not the rcc that believes one must have there new born water baptized to wash away origanal sin. BECAUSE we are born in sin. which derails your idea that flesh gives birth to our sinfull nature. because our sinfull nature is already there as soon as your conceaved. Your two passages dont go with jn 3:6. And its WASHING not water. Scripture is clear that it is the Psirit that is our new birth which Jn. 3:3-8 says.

And Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4).

its immersed into his.. I dont read it as either water or spirit, thougfh it is the Spirit that gives the Spirit to give us a new birth. As rom 3:8 says. which you seemed to have left out. it says so it is with those born of the SPIRIT. can you tell me why he left out the water part if as you assume it is so important.

Paul tells us in

Romans 9:8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. It is in baptism (with water) that we are made children of God (see my points on Eph 1:13-14 above)

No The promise is what? gal 3:14 so that by faith we might receive the PROMISE of the SPirit. the "seed" is Christ. So we are not made heirs untill this seed is in us which is Christ which is the Spirit. read also rom 4 again it says by believing we become heirs as eph 1:13-14 says. its believing in the SEED gal 3:16. See proper context. you automatically look up baptism references i look up hwere it speaks of the same thing same wording ect. And i find no place that says in water baptism we are made children of God. this is your thinking but its not in scripture. just look at eph 1:13-14 with acts 15:8. and gal 3:14.

winsome · Oct 24, 2007

Schroeder said:
i believe it is in luke 11 or 7 or 17. I dont have a bible right handy. But it says you cannot be baptized with the baptism i will be baptized with, or at least close to this. I figured you knew it well enough to know sort of where it is. well i looked it up and it is in mark 10:39 luke 12:50.

I like to look at the exact quotation not rely on my sometimes hazy memory. But Jesus here is clearly using baptised in a special way. He has already been baptised with water. But I'll cover this in my next post.

winsome · Oct 24, 2007

Schroeder said:
We know that the word baptism is used in luke to refer to his death and ressuerection, meaning it wasnt about water, but what the word means to immmerse overwhelm ect. We know JTB said I baptism with water, meaning dip or immerse with water. If it referred to what you say he would not have mentioned the use of water, it would have been redundent. He says i baptize with water but the one after me will baptize with the spirit. meaning he will immmerse you with the spirit. unlike him who immmersed with water.

This is the only time (I think) that someone says baptise with water as a phrase. But all JTB is doing here is emphasising the contrast between what he is doing and the new thing that will happen in the future. No, he didnt need to say with water, but he was just emphasising the point.

I know that baptismos means immersing or dipping, but the point I was trying to make was that for the Jews of that time baptismos in a religious context did not just mean immersing or dipping in general but in very particular way. It was the word used for the dipping or immersion in water for ritual purification and/or forgiveness of sin. So when scripture uses baptism without any qualification it means it in that specific way. That is the normal way it was understood. When it was not used in that way that was made clear by some qualification, as in baptism with the Holy Spirit. We do the same sort of thing today. The word save means in a general way rescue, preserve, guard. We can be saved from burning or being killed; we can be saved from our mistakes; money can be saved. But when Christians used saved in a religious context Are you saved? they mean a very specific kind of being saved saved from eternal damnation. They dont need to add the eternal damnation, the word saved means that in the context they are using it. Similarly baptism to the Jews, and Jewish Christians meant baptism in water, for ritual purification and/or forgiveness of sin. Though for Christians it had additional meaning.

We can see this in Mark 7:4they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash The Greek word translated here as wash is baptizo, although the word nipto or anipto is used elsewhere in the passage. This indicates they mean this ritual purification.

When Jesus refers to the baptism with which He must be baptised in Mk 10:39 or Lk 12:50 he is qualifying the word baptism, indicating he is using it in a special way, not in the normal meaning of baptism that they would have understood.

If this doesnt convince you let us look at this another way. Most of the times baptism is used in the OT it does not qualify it in any way to say whether it is with water or the Holy Spirit. But in many cases the context clearly shows it to be with water. We could divide the usage of baptism in an unqualified way into three categories:
1. the context indicates it is baptism with water
2. the context indicates it is baptism with the Spirit
3. the context does not indicate either way

1. where the context clearly indicates it is with water. We have:
JTB baptising in the Jordan (many references)
Jesus & his disciples baptising in the Jordan (Jn 3: 22 to Jn 4:2
Paul being baptised (Acts 23:16)
Philip baptising the Ethiopian (Acts 8:36)
Philip baptising in Samaria (Acts 8:12) we know this was in water because that is how Philip baptised see Acts 8:36

2. where the context indicates it is with the Holy Spirit. We have zero

So at the moment it is 5-0 in favour of baptism meaning baptism with water. But we can add more.

Look at the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit which we call baptism with the Holy Spirit. There are five occasions of this in Acts: Pentecost itself, Acts 4:31, Acts 8:14-17 (Peter & John in Samaria), Acts 11:44-46 (Cornelius) and Acts 19:6 (Paul in Ephesus). There are three things to note about these:
1. They produced some physical manifestation in or around the people concerned. Now this never happens with baptism with water, except for Jesus baptism which was a special case.

2. This baptism with the Holy Spirit it never assocuiated with the forgiveness of sin, whereas baptism with water is. So we can conclude that where the type of baptism is not specifically indicated, but is for the forgiveness of sin, then it is baptism with water. Hence the baptism that Peter tells the Jews to have in Acts 2:38 was with water, and reconfirms that Pauls own baptism was with water. So now we have 6-0 in favour of baptism meaning baptism with water.

3. In three of these cases (Samaria, Cornelius & Ephesus) baptism is also mentioned , but as a separate act the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Clearly baptism was seen as a separate thing to the Pentecost experience of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This can opnly be with water as repeating baptism with the holy spirit would make no sense. To our count we can therefore add 2 more (Cornelius and Ephesus)

So now we have 8-0 in favour of baptism used unqualified meaning baptism with water. Pretty conclusive I would say.

Schroeder said:
It was a new thing that was going to happen but as i pointed out it couldnt have been a metophor JUST by the way he speaks of it. And as NICO seems to show, they the preists dont get the idea of a purification without water, the water NEVER purified them, what is needed was a new purification that TRUELLY did purify us.

It was a purification ritual commanded by God
Take the Levites from among the Israelites and cleanse them. Thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification on them, have them shave their whole body with a razor and wash their clothes, and so cleanse themselvesThe Levites purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes (Num 8: 6-8 & 21).
The idea also occurs in psalm 51 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. This is reflected in Isaiah 1;18though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be like snow;

winsome · Oct 24, 2007

Hi Schroeder,

This has taken me a lot of time this morning & I must get on with other things, but I will try and come back to other points this evening (UK time). However there is one point I do want to make now.

I believe that the phrase baptism in the Holy Spirit is a metaphor, but I do not mean by that it is not a real event, a real experience. In Catholic Charismatic Renewal we run Life In The Spirit Seminars in which the pivotal session is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. It may surprise you to know that Catholics do this. It is estimated that over a 125 million Catholic have been through these seminars. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit about 10 years ago and it changed my life. It was not the dramatic experience that some people have. God didn’t change me on one big conversion but in a series of nudges, of which the baptism in the Holy Spirit was one of the bigger ones.

Some Catholics don’t like the term baptism in the Holy Spirit because the terminology causes confusion with our Sacramental Baptism and use the term release of the Spirit instead. We do receive the Holy Spirit in the sacraments of Baptism and in a new way in the sacrament of Confirmation where the Holy Spirit confirms and strengthens the graces of Baptism and give us the gifts and empowerment that we need to serve and proclaim the gospel in the world. However for some (many?) it is as though the Holy Spirit were some how constrained and the gifts put away unwrapped. The baptism in the Holy Spirit tries to help people to open up to the Spirit and allow him to work in their lives, and to unwrap the gifts and use them.

So please don't think I am trying to down play this. It is just that baptism in the Holy Spirit is different to Baptism (with water) and has a different purpose. It's not either/or. It is both that are needed.

winsome · Oct 24, 2007

Schroeder said:
the clothed theme is used alot and if we read all of them it speaks ONLY of the SPirit. it is the SPirit that clothes us and makes us NEW. we take off the old clothes (sinfull nature) and put on the new clothes( the Spirit) coll 3:1-14. rom 13:14, and others. It is the baptism of the SPirit that is the giving of this NEW clothes. it deals with your sins by removing the curse of sin being death.

Actually Rom 13:14 says it is Christ we put on Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Col 3:9-10 says it a new self that we put on you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self,
Col 3:12-14 says it is the fruits of the spirit clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience clothe yourselves with love
Eph 6:11-17 tells us to clothe ourselves in the armour of God Put on the whole armour of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armour of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. With all of these take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
In 1Thess 5: he recommends a bit less clothing But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

So you see it doesnt speak only of the Spirit

Schroeder said:
True and as i said they are the same thing and DO ACTUALLY HAPPEN its not a metaphor of what is going to happen. It may be a metophor in words but not in action. Clothed in power is a metaphor of baptized with the Spirit.

No they are both metaphors. Yes they actually happen. If think I deny it you are misunderstanding me.

Schroeder said:
It did but not for sins or to receive GRACE. it was for association and possibly sympolism of there spirit baptism. outward expression of a inward action. I read in Jn. 4 and 7 that we are given the SPirit which is spoken of has rivers of flowing water. In titus it is refered to as a washing of regeneration. The spirit is refered to this in the old testement as well.

It was, and is a symbolism, an outward expression of an inward action. On that we are agreed. But the inward action is grace, the forgiveness of sins, and more.

Apostolic times:
Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptised, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16).

Post Apostolic times
I have heard sir, said I [to the Shepherd], from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins. He said to me. You have heard rightly, for so it is. The Shepherd 4:3:1 (AD 80)

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven [John 3:3]" Justin Martyr First Apology61 (A.D. 151).

"Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men's being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration,--as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God." Theopilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, 2:16 (A.D. 181).

" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptised, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

And many more if you want them

Schroeder said:
the word baptism here means literal IMMERSION. when we are immersed INTO christ we are IMMERSED into his death. which is LITTERALY TRUE. Its called being born again. whne we die we are raised with him just as he was ROM 6:6-14, 8:11. Paul is NOT speaking of water baptism he is speaking about our sinfull nature and be saved from it or being born again. as Jn. 3:3-8 speaks of. SO it is with those born of the Spirit. the Spirit gives the SPirit.

I think the problem is that dont understand rituals and the nature of sacraments. God works though rituals In rituals we carry out actions which symbolise what God is doing, how he is acting. Let me take the word SACRAMENTAL as in Sacramental Baptism. It breaks down into two parts SACRA meaning sacred or divine and MENTAL to do with the mind. So sacramental is a way of calling to mind the actions of the divine, of knowing (in the mind) what God is doing. Sacramental actions are not magic. Its not the water that washing our sins away. That is God. But the sacramental action of immersion into water symbolises what God is doing, and brings it to mind. It is, as a the old catholic catechism said an outward sign of inward grace.

I have been told that in the early days when someone was baptised it was at dawn. They would be facing the west where it was dark and renounced Satan and all his ways. Then they would be turned round to face the east to where the sun was rising, that is facing the light. And they would state their belief in Christ. Then they would go down three steps into a pool (a mikvah plenty about) and be submerged three times, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and symbolising their death in the tomb with Christ. Then up three steps out of the water, symbolising rising with Christ and receive a new white garment, symbolising their new life in Christ, putting on Christ. We see the same elements today in a very truncated form in sacramental baptism. You see the symbolism was all about what was happening unseen, what God was doing to them.

Schroeder said:
the baptism of the SPirit does both. We are children of God when the SPirit is in us. eph 1:13-14

It is baptism (with water) that makes us children of God and when we first receive the Spirit.

Schroeder · Oct 24, 2007

winsome said:
This is the only time (I think) that someone says baptise with water as a phrase. But all JTB is doing here is emphasising the contrast between what he is doing and the new thing that will happen in the future. No, he didnt need to say with water, but he was just emphasising the point.

your reaching on this. why would he need to emphasis the point. His point was about Christ not water baptism. he did not come to show water baptism as anything he came to reveal our new priest, or the new high preist of isreal. No Peter used the phrase as well. who can keep these from water.

I know that baptismos means immersing or dipping, but the point I was trying to make was that for the Jews of that time baptismos in a religious context did not just mean immersing or dipping in general but in very particular way.

So what is the word for immersion in greek, its baptismo is it not. there is no seperate word for it is there. To immerse is not the same as dip. to dip you go in then right out. like a spoon in you soup. to immerse you are held under for a time so what it is being immersed INTO will stay with it. like CLOTHE in dye. Like when we are immersed INTO Christ and are CLOTHED with him. we are not water dipped "into" Christ. we are immersed because it is the SPirit that stays with us.

it did mean cleansing to them which is why it is used. and which is why JTB used it and made the distinction between his and Christ. his did cleanse them and forgive them because that is what was used at the time. JTB said Christ was with the SPirit. TO me this shows the CHANGE in what baptism would change the person or purify them of there sin which Titus 3:5 shows us. And all the scripture which speaks of our new birth. They dont use the term Spirit baptism but it is clear to me at least that this is what happen when we receive the Spirit.

When Jesus refers to the baptism with which He must be baptised in Mk 10:39 or Lk 12:50 he is qualifying the word baptism, indicating he is using it in a special way, not in the normal meaning of baptism that they would have understood.

What do you mean GUALIFYING the word baptism. A speacial way. he will be overwhelmed or immersed in sorrow or pain or suffering. SO how did he gualify it to them so they knew what he meant. JTB didnt do this did he.

. We could divide the usage of baptism in an unqualified way into three categories:
1. the context indicates it is baptism with water
2. the context indicates it is baptism with the Spirit
3. the context does not indicate either way

apparrently it didnt convince me. works for me. though you have in your early post said it means mikvah so you have made it mean what you need it to before you even start to use context.

1. where the context clearly indicates it is with water. We have:
JTB baptising in the Jordan (many references)
Jesus & his disciples baptising in the Jordan (Jn 3: 22 to Jn 4:2
Paul being baptised (Acts 23:16)
Philip baptising the Ethiopian (Acts 8:36)
Philip baptising in Samaria (Acts 8:12) we know this was in water because that is how Philip baptised see Acts 8:36

I agree. though it shows that the eunuch was saved before he was water baptized by what ROm 10:9-10 says. Pauls is up in the air because of the other report of this event. It says he is to go to this man and be healed of his sight. he did put the stuff on his eyes could see and STRAIGHT away got up and was baptized. Acts 9:18 just before it says in verse 17 It tells him what to do and what would happen..." that though might receive thy sight and be filled with the SPirit. TO me being baptized by the SPirit is receiving the SPirit. because that is what jn. 3:6 says.
SO Paul conversion could be SPirit baptism. becasue it gives no indication in context it is water BUT it does has i showd mention receiving the SPirit. also at pentecost and Acts 10 we see it being done immediatly as well.

1. They produced some physical manifestation in or around the people concerned. Now this never happens with baptism with water, except for Jesus baptism which was a special case.

WHY did they show a special manifestion. BECAUSE it was a NEW event a new teaching and there had to be proof to PROVE that what they taught was of GOD. how else could the believe such a NEW teaching. It never happens with water baptism because water baptism has no power to do such a thing. You say water baptism gives the SPirit, which you show here gives a outward manifestion. why wouldnty it during water baptism if they were receiving the SPirit as well. A good exp. is acts 10. Peter was showing the jews who said they MUST be jews first to be saved that this was not true. curiously one of the things you must do to become a jew was water baptism which Peter made them do AFTER God showed he accepted them without becoming a jew.

2. This baptism with the Holy Spirit it never associated with the forgiveness of sin, whereas baptism with water is. So we can conclude that where the type of baptism is not specifically indicated, but is for the forgiveness of sin, then it is baptism with water. Hence the baptism that Peter tells the Jews to have in Acts 2:38 was with water, and reconfirms that Pauls own baptism was with water.

Well maybe because IT WAS DEALT WITH ALREADY. this you dont seem to get. Christ paid the price for sins once for all. there is no dealing with it. What receiving the SPirit does is join us into the body or Church and Christ who did pay for the sins of us. It is claiming this gift of Christ. Or as eph 1:13-14 says it guarantees that the sacrifice will cover our sins and let us be with God. So water baptism is not and has no reason to be for forgiveness of sins. You make this claim on one verse which taken a syou take it contradicts all of scripture about how to have sins forgiven. read heb.

Clearly baptism was seen as a separate thing to the Pentecost experience of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This can only be with water as repeating baptism with the holy spirit would make no sense.

again it was to make a point to show they were of GOD. Well repeating the need to deal with sin is redunt when it says Christ did it once for all. It a slap to his face i think, that his sacrifice was not enough. He is our new preist and he went, so to speak into the holy of holy and made the sacrifice for us. and as it says he doesnt have to do it every year over and over, for this would mean his was not good enough. yet your saying we need to do something extra to deal with it.

The idea also occurs in psalm 51 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. This is reflected in Isaiah 1;18though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be like snow;

TRUE ever read Jn 4:10 and 7:30- speaks of this living water. It was to figurative to what Christ would do for us. christ is whiter then snow and when we are cleaned with the SPirit we will be seen as white as snow.

Schroeder · Oct 24, 2007

winsome said:
Hi Schroeder,

This has taken me a lot of time this morning & I must get on with other things, but I will try and come back to other points this evening (UK time). However there is one point I do want to make now.

I believe that the phrase baptism in the Holy Spirit is a metaphor, but I do not mean by that it is not a real event, a real experience. In Catholic Charismatic Renewal we run Life In The Spirit Seminars in which the pivotal session is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. It may surprise you to know that Catholics do this. It is estimated that over a 125 million Catholic have been through these seminars. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit about 10 years ago and it changed my life. It was not the dramatic experience that some people have. God didnt change me on one big conversion but in a series of nudges, of which the baptism in the Holy Spirit was one of the bigger ones.

Some Catholics dont like the term baptism in the Holy Spirit because the terminology causes confusion with our Sacramental Baptism and use the term release of the Spirit instead. We do receive the Holy Spirit in the sacraments of Baptism and in a new way in the sacrament of Confirmation where the Holy Spirit confirms and strengthens the graces of Baptism and give us the gifts and empowerment that we need to serve and proclaim the gospel in the world. However for some (many?) it is as though the Holy Spirit were some how constrained and the gifts put away unwrapped. The baptism in the Holy Spirit tries to help people to open up to the Spirit and allow him to work in their lives, and to unwrap the gifts and use them.

So please don't think I am trying to down play this. It is just that baptism in the Holy Spirit is different to Baptism (with water) and has a different purpose. It's not either/or. It is both that are needed.

but none of this is scriptual. The baptism of the SPirit is not some unique event that happens when you want it to or some later even. It is when you believe and are saved from the curse of sin being death. It is your being born again. it is putting on the new clothes. you do not receive the SPirit in your sacraments because the SPirit is ALWAYS WITH YOU from the beggining. gal 3:2. You say some (many) view it as constrained, hinting you dont BUT you jsut state you dont get it unless you do the sacraments or at least it can be given in the sacraments, this is making it constrained. You have or i should say the RCC has no scripture to make any of these claims. not even a remote cherry picked use of scripture. not meaning to be mean.

Schroeder · Oct 24, 2007

winsome said:
Actually Rom 13:14 says it is Christ we put on Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Col 3:9-10 says it a new self that we put on you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self,
Col 3:12-14 says it is the fruits of the spirit clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience clothe yourselves with love
Eph 6:11-17 tells us to clothe ourselves in the armour of God Put on the whole armour of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armour of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. With all of these take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
In 1Thess 5: he recommends a bit less clothing But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

So you see it doesnt speak only of the Spirit

BUT all of these cant be done without the SPirit can they. We do these things THROUGH the SPirit. When we are clothed with the Spirit is when such things can be done. none of the passages show they are done outside of the SPirit. So your really not showing me wrong.

It was, and is a symbolism, an outward expression of an inward action. On that we are agreed. But the inward action is grace, the forgiveness of sins, and more.

Grace is free not by works OF ANY KIND. which doing something to receive something NO MATTER how you put it. the forgiveness of sins was already dealt with by Christ. its not an issue for us to deal with except not to sin anymore.

Apostolic times:
Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptised, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16).

Click to expand...

I have dealt with thse in other post so i wont do it over again.

"[John 3:3]" Justin Martyr First Apology61 (A.D. 151).

To Autolycus, 2:16 (A.D. 181).

Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

And many more if you want them

no thanks they dont inspire me. and dont mean much to me seeing how they are not scriptures just interpretations of them and church traditions. They are not at all proofs for this discussion.

I think the problem is that dont understand rituals and the nature of sacraments. God works though rituals In rituals we carry out actions which symbolise what God is doing, how he is acting. Let me take the word SACRAMENTAL as in Sacramental Baptism. It breaks down into two parts SACRA meaning sacred or divine and MENTAL to do with the mind. So sacramental is a way of calling to mind the actions of the divine, of knowing (in the mind) what God is doing. Sacramental actions are not magic. Its not the water that washing our sins away. That is God. But the sacramental action of immersion into water symbolises what God is doing, and brings it to mind. It is, as a the old catholic catechism said an outward sign of inward grace.

But i do and dont mind if you need to do it this way. thats your choice. BUT its not scriptual which is why you dont give references for them. Why cant the SPirit by itself wash me clean. it doesnt really wash me in flesh clean it covers my sins becasue GOd sees the SPirit and sees Christ Who did the work needed to deal with my sins. So in a since it did in that God sees it no more but my flesh is still in sin, because thats it nature. The problem in your thinking, which on the surface sounds fine BUT you make the claim that IT MUST be done. that it is commanded to be done. If this is true the sympolism is gone. sympolism is to reflect on what has happened. It isnt to MAKE something happen as your actually saying.

I have been told that in the early days when someone was baptised it was at dawn. They would be facing the west where it was dark and renounced Satan and all his ways. Then they would be turned round to face the east to where the sun was rising, that is facing the light. And they would state their belief in Christ. Then they would go down three steps into a pool (a mikvah plenty about) and be submerged three times, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and symbolising their death in the tomb with Christ. Then up three steps out of the water, symbolising rising with Christ and receive a new white garment, symbolising their new life in Christ, putting on Christ. We see the same elements today in a very truncated form in sacramental baptism. You see the symbolism was all about what was happening unseen, what God was doing to them.

sympolism of what HAD already taken place. not what is taken place the moment it is done. which is what your argueing for. I have not a problem with this being done and sounds fairly neat. though its not scriptual and this is not found in scripture, the detail you provide.

It is baptism (with water) that makes us children of God and when

we first receive the Spirit.

not accoding to scripture. 1 cor 12:13 eph 1:13-14. please show a direct verse that says so. the ones i give show a direct verse that says the SPirit unites us into the Church or body and that we receive the SPirit when we believe which is backed up in scripture as well acts 15:8. gal 3:2,14 jesus himself saying Jn. 3:16 and many others.

winsome · Oct 24, 2007

Schroeder said:
your reaching on this. why would he need to emphasis the point. His point was about Christ not water baptism. he did not come to show water baptism as anything he came to reveal our new priest, or the new high preist of isreal. No Peter used the phrase as well. who can keep these from water.

You are shifting your argument here Schroeder,

Your point in post #33, to which I responded, was only about JTB mentioning baptising with water and baptising with the spirit, and I quote:

"We know that the word baptism is used in luke to refer to his death and ressuerection, meaning it wasnt about water, but what the word means to immmerse overwhelm ect. We know JTB said I baptism with water, meaning dip or immerse with water. If it referred to what you say he would not have mentioned the use of water, it would have been redundent. He says i baptize with water but the one after me will baptize with the spirit. meaning he will immmerse you with the spirit. unlike him who immmersed with water."

My point was that JTB was just emphasising the contrast between what he was doing (baptising with water the normal & familiar baptism and the new thing that Christ was going to do), so your comment that JTB came to reveal our new priest, or the new high preist of isreal. Is irrelevant to that point.

Schroeder said:
So what is the word for immersion in greek, its baptismo is it not. there is no seperate word for it is there. To immerse is not the same as dip. to dip you go in then right out. like a spoon in you soup. to immerse you are held under for a time so what it is being immersed INTO will stay with it. like CLOTHE in dye. Like when we are immersed INTO Christ and are CLOTHED with him. we are not water dipped "into" Christ. we are immersed because it is the SPirit that stays with us.

From Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Baptism, Baptist, Baptize [Verb]
baptizo "to baptize," primarily a frequentative form of bapto, "to dip," was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc. Plutarchus uses it of the drawing of wine by dipping the cup into the bowl (Alexis, 67) and Plato, metaphorically, of being overwhelmed with questions (Euthydemus, 277 D).
It is used in the NT in Luke_11:38 of washing oneself (as in 2_Kings_5:14, "dipped himself," Sept.); see also Isaiah_21:4, lit., "lawlessness overwhelms me." In the early chapters of the four Gospels and in Acts_1:5; Acts_11:16; Acts_19:4, it is used of the rite performed by John the Baptist who called upon the people to repent that they might receive remission of sins. Those who obeyed came "confessing their sins," thus acknowledging their unfitness to be in the Messiah's coming kingdom.

So baptizo also means to dip. I have seen in another source that it had a much wider range of uses than even just immersing or dipping.

winsome · Oct 24, 2007

Schroeder said:
it did mean cleansing to them which is why it is used. and which is why JTB used it and made the distinction between his and Christ. his did cleanse them and forgive them because that is what was used at the time. JTB said Christ was with the SPirit. TO me this shows the CHANGE in what baptism would change the person or purify them of there sin which Titus 3:5 shows us. And all the scripture which speaks of our new birth.

I find this a little confusing, but you seem to be agreeing that baptism does forgive sins, and that this is what Titus 3:5 is showing.

Schroeder said:
They dont use the term Spirit baptism but it is clear to me at least that this is what happen when we receive the Spirit.

No you are right they dont use the term spirit baptism. And for a good reason they didnt mean spirit baptism. As I argued in post #33, which you are quoting from, the word baptism or baptise normally meant baptism with water. If it didnt it was very clear from the context that it didnt. So when Jesus says Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19) and The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned (Mk16:16), there is no indication that he is using it in any way other than the normal way that is with water.

Schroeder said:
What do you mean GUALIFYING the word baptism. A speacial way. he will be overwhelmed or immersed in sorrow or pain or suffering. SO how did he gualify it to them so they knew what he meant. JTB didnt do this did he.

I think you are taking objection to my use of qualify. I meant indicating that he was not using the normal use of baptism. This he clearly indicates in Mark 10:38
But Jesus said to them, You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with?
Jesus has already been baptised in water, so have James and John. So Jesus is clearly referring to something different. His parallel request about drinking the cup that he would drink also shows that. So as I have said when baptism does not mena with water, this is clearly indicated.

Schroeder said:
apparrently it didnt convince me. works for me. though you have in your early post said it means mikvah so you have made it mean what you need it to before you even start to use context.

Sorry, dont know what you mean by this.

winsome · Oct 25, 2007

Reading through your posts I am confused by your theology here Schroeder.

You seem to be saying:

1. That you are saved if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9). Nothing more is needed.

2. That God forgives all your sins automatically. There is no need to repent or ask for forgiveness.

3. That we are baptised in the Spirit when we first believe and that it is a one-off event.

Then could you explain

4. Under what conditions are we baptised in the Spirit and what are its effects?

5. Whether you believe in Once Saved Always Saved, or whether you see salvation as an initial event and an ongoing process?

Thanks, it would help me a lot to understand your theology on this.

Schroeder · Oct 29, 2007

winsome said:
You are shifting your argument here Schroeder,

Your point in post #33, to which I responded, was only about JTB mentioning baptising with water and baptising with the spirit, and I quote:

"We know that the word baptism is used in luke to refer to his death and ressuerection, meaning it wasnt about water, but what the word means to immmerse overwhelm ect. We know JTB said I baptism with water, meaning dip or immerse with water. If it referred to what you say he would not have mentioned the use of water, it would have been redundent. He says i baptize with water but the one after me will baptize with the spirit. meaning he will immmerse you with the spirit. unlike him who immmersed with water."

My point was that JTB was just emphasising the contrast between what he was doing (baptising with water the normal & familiar baptism and the new thing that Christ was going to do), so your comment that JTB came to reveal our new priest, or the new high preist of isreal. Is irrelevant to that point.

It is said that JTB water baptism was a bit different oto the jews as well. It wasnt a similiar use to them either. And you dint really cover how Christ would be different. HOW would he actually baptize with the PSirit when he wasnt here with us in physical form. Woulkdnt this make Jn. 3:6 make sense in saying The Spirit gives the SPIRIT. And how is it irrealavent when that is why he was doing it. YOu mentioning it as a way to prove water baptism is a must isnt really relevent either but that is what you did in a way.

From Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Click to expand...

Baptism, Baptist, Baptize [Verb]
baptizo "to baptize," primarily a frequentative form of bapto, "to dip," was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc. Plutarchus uses it of the drawing of wine by dipping the cup into the bowl (Alexis, 67) and Plato, metaphorically, of being overwhelmed with questions (Euthydemus, 277 D).
It is used in the NT in Luke_11:38 of washing oneself (as in 2_Kings_5:14, "dipped himself," Sept.); see also Isaiah_21:4, lit., "lawlessness overwhelms me." In the early chapters of the four Gospels and in Acts_1:5; Acts_11:16; Acts_19:4, it is used of the rite performed by John the Baptist who called upon the people to repent that they might receive remission of sins. Those who obeyed came "confessing their sins," thus acknowledging their unfitness to be in the Messiah's coming kingdom.

So baptizo also means to dip. I have seen in another source that it had a much wider range of uses than even just immersing or dipping.

I know it means to dip and other things. it was a word used to mean a few things as you say. which is why i said you cant just assume baptism means or deals with WATER every time you see it. which it seems you do.

Schroeder · Oct 29, 2007

winsome said:
Reading through your posts I am confused by your theology here Schroeder.

You seem to be saying:

1. That you are saved if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9). Nothing more is needed.

YES correct. as what happened in Acts 15:8 speaking of acts 10.

2. That God forgives all your sins automatically. There is no need to repent or ask for forgiveness.

NO not really. Christ paid the price or did the work needed to deal with sin. as in what was nened in the old covenant wiht the sacrifices. the High preist wen into the holy of holy and gave the sacrifice for the people to deal with there sins. Christ did this once for all. Christ paid the price or dealt with the sin issue once for all. 1 Peter 3:18. Jn 1:29. We need to ask for forgiveness know when we sin. BUT the curse of sin which is death Christ dealt with. If we dont ask for forgiveness know it will be dealt with when we are put through the fires to see where we stand. Cant remember the passage right off about this.

3. That we are baptised in the Spirit when we first believe and that it is a one-off event.

RIGHT just as eph 1:13-14 says acts 15:8 shows ect. This baptism gives us the spirit(jn. 3:6) and gives us the washing of rebirth and renewal. ITs our rebirth.

Then could you explain

4. Under what conditions are we baptised in the Spirit and what are its effects?

As above when we believe in our hearts that what Christ did was true and ACCEPT it we are saved from the curse of sin being death. and we are reborn made anew washed clean given the SPirit to guide us where in the past it was the Law or commandments that did this. ALl the passages about the sinfull nature and the new nature. It destroys the sinfull nature. which is why its called our rebirth or be born again.

5. Whether you believe in Once Saved Always Saved, or whether you see salvation as an initial event and an ongoing process?

I dont personaly believe your once saved always saved. A gift given can be given back. i think you can fall away completely though it would be very hard to do. salvation is a initial event but you must live through the SPirit to keep it strong or you could fall from it. the whole Titus 3:5 rebirth and RENEWAL. all our lives we are renewed Or made like Christ. Our old nature is gone BUT it is our flesh that is part of it which doesnt go away untill after Christ returns and we are given our new bodies which have no sin. SO if we do not live thorugh the SPirit which is the gift given to us then we could or may fall into living by the flesh which is death. I just cant give scripture to say what the point is that you fall from grace or give the gift back is.

Thanks, it would help me a lot to understand your theology on this.

hope this helps. I have been water baptized and i did water baptize my daughter. but neither of us did it for our sins. It was a commitment or recommitment. An association with Christ, which is what i think it was used for in scripture.

A little confused on baptism

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