Acting As A Good Samaritan - Defending The Defenseless

NarrowPathPilgrim · Oct 21, 2007

That abortion is murder will be presupposed in this thread. If you would like to dispute or refute this simple fact you can start your own thread; but the issue will, for the purposes of this discussion, be considered res judicata. All syllogisms which require this premise shall be deemed void and moot.

This questions before us are these:

Is it biblically permissible for a second-party to intervene in the defense and preservation of innocent life?
Is it biblically required for a second-party to intervene in the defense and preservation of innocent life?
Does the permission/requirement to intervene apply to all murder or only to post-birth murder?
What would the Good Samaritan do if he seen someone murdering a young child and had the power to intervene?

The questions are NOT:

Whether abortion is murder.
Whether individuals can act as vigilantes in executing judgment and exercising the "sword" (Romans 13) in POST-CRIME murder cases. The responsibility to execute murderers has been delegated to civil authorities (see Romans 13) and it is merely a matter of accepting the sola Scriptura interpretation.
Whether we are obligated to seek and search out all murders to stop them. This again is the responsibility of civil authorities, we are only liable for acting with responsibility in our capacity which God has ordained with regard to our neighbors (those we come into contact with).
Whether self-defense is biblically justified.

I'm interested in serious answers only. And I'd encourage anyone interested in the subject to read Paul Hill's book, "Mix My Blood with the Blood of the Unborn."

I would write I much longer letter including the scriptural texts which answer these questions but I've got some sermons to copy before church this evening and time constraints compel me to conclude for the present. Time permitting, I may revise this post to be more comprehensive in the near future.

Trashionista · Oct 21, 2007

Actually, I'm completely pro-choice, but I have no problem with Right to Life/Pro-Life/Rights to the Unborn organizations protesting and campaigning.

HOWEVER - much like PeTA - I am not fond of some more radical people's tactics. To me, under no circumstances, should organizations be bombing abortion clinics or harrassing doctors/nurses[?] who perform abortions. They have the right to hand out pamphlets, get on a pulpit & scream out their message. But they don't have the right to use crime to get their point across.

Frankly, and I imagine this'll get me bashed, I really think organizations like PeTA and the really, crazy OTT lobby groups would get a heck of a lot more press if more subdued measures were used. I can't take Ingrid Newkirk seriously - I'm all for animal rights, but throwing paint on a woman's jacket and just being really loud & obnoxious doesn't help. Things like documentaries & articles from the Humane Society or the ASPCA are a lot more effective in my view because it isn't as alienating. I imagine the same view would apply to pro-life groups.

I'm all for free speech, which is why the Pro-Life side opinion should be expressed. But it has to be expressed in a dignified way if it deserves any respect. Attacking women or screaming at nurses isn't dignified in any way, shape, or form.

NarrowPathPilgrim · Oct 22, 2007

Quirk said:
They have the right to hand out pamphlets, get on a pulpit & scream out their message. But they don't have the right to use crime to get their point across.

Since when is using lethal force to counter lethal force a crime?

Genesis 9:1-6
1. And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

If they are to be executed for doing the crime, shouldn't force be employed to prevent the crime which deserves capital punishment? After all, it would be in the best interest of the abortionist to wound him rather than have to execute him! (not that I have any regards for the interest of such perverted men, uh, animals)

Quirk said:
I'm all for animal rights

Hmmm, I won't give in to the temptation to take this thread off topic, but scripture knows nothing of "Animal Rights!" Instead, the inspired word of the triune God is replete with statements to the contrary, to wit vide supra.

Quirk said:
Things like documentaries & articles from the Humane Society or the ASPCA are a lot more effective in my view because it isn't as alienating. I imagine the same view would apply to pro-life groups.

Try applying this logic to all crime across the board. Should police leave their guns at home and "plead and beg" with rapists to "please stop what your doing"? Do you really think this would be more effective? Give me a break!

Quirk said:
Attacking women or screaming at nurses isn't dignified in any way, shape, or form.

No one said anything about "attacking women or screaming at nurses". We're talking about stopping a murder in progress.
Oh, and if you happen to be raped, I don't recommend you scream at your rapist either, screaming at rapists isn't effective in any way, shape, or form, I recommend a 230 grain +P+ .45 JHP from a Colt 1911!

binSchmidt · Oct 22, 2007

After all, it would be in the best interest of the abortionist to wound him rather than have to execute him! (not that I have any regards for the interest of such perverted men, uh, animals)

Jesus said "Love your enemies" and Paul under inspiration wrote in Romans 12, "Do not repay anyone evil for evil...Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good". Abortionists should be treated with love and I think a person who has no regard for others, or even a particular group of others, is behaving contrary to these commands of scripture. You may reply to my heading that the Bible knows nothing of 'human rights', and it's true that God has the ultimate right to do anything - but there's certainly the human, and Christian, responsibility to love others, even when they commit evil.

Try applying this logic to all crime across the board. Should police leave their guns at home and "plead and beg" with rapists to "please stop what your doing"? Do you really think this would be more effective? Give me a break!

This isn't necessarily a valid argument. The difference is that rapists and other criminals are already behaving contrary to the law and contrary to what society accepts. On the other hand, abortionists are only doing what society sanctions. This makes a difference, not because being legal makes it OK, but because one way to prevent abortions is to campaign publicly to have them legally banned.
Because the success of this campaign rests on public opinion, it's quite important that the pro-life cause is viewed positively by the public and by the government. If a pro-lifer bombs abortion clinics or even protests outside them, it will probably cause others to hate pro-lifers and what they stand for. But if pro-lifers avoid these type of actions, the public is more likely to perceive them as reasonable people and therefore possibly more likely to agree with them.
This has to be weighed up against the effects of fear and shock. If enough people protest, people may be persuaded by the passion and conviction that pro-lifers demonstrate when they take radical action against abortion.

Trashionista · Oct 22, 2007

NarrowPathPilgrim said:
Since when is using lethal force to counter lethal force a crime?

Ok, self-defense is one thing. But why the heck then, in police training, are police told to shoot for the legs in the case of a fleeing criminal instead of say, the heart? The goal is to stop the action - not be so lethal as to kill the person.

And yes, that can be applied to the pro-Life view as well. You have the right to protest & spread a message - but absolutely no right to shoot an abortion doctor.

If they are to be executed for doing the crime, shouldn't force be employed to prevent the crime which deserves capital punishment? After all, it would be in the best interest of the abortionist to wound him rather than have to execute him! (not that I have any regards for the interest of such perverted men, uh, animals)

I don't believe in capital punishment in any capacity - its barbaric, and it says something when its a practise George W. Bush supports. So this "Abortion should be a capital offense!" doesn't fly in my case.

Hmmm, I won't give in to the temptation to take this thread off topic, but scripture knows nothing of "Animal Rights!" Instead, the inspired word of the triune God is replete with statements to the contrary, to wit vide supra.

Animals are pretty helpless. A tad bit judgemental to fight for the rights of the unborn who are also helpless, and then dismiss animal rights groups. I find that rather disgusting, but I'll assume for a domesticated animals sake, that you don't own a pet. Isn't it a rather Christian belief to support the meek? Do animals not count as "meek?" How is animal rights an irrelevant issue?

See Michael Vick.

Also, I think you completely missed the point I was trying to make, but I diegress.

Try applying this logic to all crime across the board. Should police leave their guns at home and "plead and beg" with rapists to "please stop what your doing"? Do you really think this would be more effective? Give me a break!

They should not be shooting to kill. There's a reason police should be in good shape.

And police without guns have worked in some metropoles. I believe London - a pretty decent sized city - had this in effect for quite a decent amount of time?

No one said anything about "attacking women or screaming at nurses". We're talking about stopping a murder in progress.
Oh, and if you happen to be raped, I don't recommend you scream at your rapist either, screaming at rapists isn't effective in any way, shape, or form, I recommend a 230 grain +P+ .45 JHP from a Colt 1911!

I don't carry a gun around, and I personally would never carry a gun, nor keep one in my house.

Urinating has been suggested as being effective in that situation - there are ways to handle every situation, and doesn't always require a violent mentality. Point is, the example of a rapist is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. But since your brought it up, violence with the barrel of a gun is never the only answer.

And this is also very dependant on whether you see abortion as murder.

Apollo Celestio · Oct 25, 2007

Animals > Humans?
So for pro-choice, they have the right to spread the message and kill kids, but pro life can't commit crimes either? Neither is right, both should be stopped.

Trashionista · Oct 25, 2007

Ishida said:
Animals > Humans?
So for pro-choice, they have the right to spread the message and kill kids, but pro life can't commit crimes either? Neither is right, both should be stopped.

Animal abuse is often a pre-cursor to more serious offensives against mankind. It would go against the common good to not make animal cruelty a criminal offense.

However, I've never seen any real evidence that suggests women who get abortions are likely to go on killing rampages. That threat is a lot more real when using animal torture* as an example.

*To make it clear, its not actions like eating meat. But actual, intentional harm done to an animal.

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Acting As A Good Samaritan - Defending The Defenseless

NarrowPathPilgrim

If God be for us, who can be against us

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Trashionista

Well-Known Member

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NarrowPathPilgrim

If God be for us, who can be against us

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binSchmidt

Junior Member

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Trashionista

Well-Known Member

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Apollo Celestio

Deal with it.

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Trashionista

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