Those rich atheists

Originally posted by Arnold_Philips
Is atheism primarily a phenomenon that occurs in industrialized nations?

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atheists don't have a belief in God so I would venture to say they are everywhere, all nations not just the "industrialized nations"

phenomenon???

Do they reject God only because they can afford to do so?

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of course not...poor, middle class, an wealthy...all walks of life

I haven't really done much substantial research of demographics and such, but I am under the impression that there are not many out there, and that they are centralized.

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nonbelievers are not contained in one area...

That is an excellent question. I've never encountered any study on the subject. If anyone comes up with one I'd be most interested in seeing it.

The majority of the western world is theistic, but this seems to have been on a steady slow decline since at least the start of this century.

While it may have to do with wealth, there are other factors that go along with wealth that may be factors to take into account - people are healthier and live longer, they are better educated, in pluralistic western style democracies they are exposed to many different competing ideas, democracy tends to equal freedom which includes freedom from religion, people are also more likely to state their views and so their may be distortion in some more dictatorial countries (like Saudi Arabia or Nigeria).

Put simply, if there are more atheists per capita in the west (and this would be extremely difficult to determine) there are likely to be many factors influencing that figure.

Personally, I think the encouragement for intellectual, political and religious freedom that is there in the west would be the main factor and not wealth per se.

And I also think that at least some people in poorer nations (which are usually more oppresive regime wise) who profess theism do so in order to avoid persecution. After all, apostates under Islamic law are condemned to death.

Hi all!

Hmm, speaking off the top of my head (such as it is) & without any empirical or anecdotal evidence whatsoever, I think Arnold may be on to something. Where is God/divinity (Hi Havoc!) more easily neglected, amidst poverty or amidst wealth?

My (orthodox Jewish) view of the scriptures would suggest the latter. Look at Deuteronomy 8:11-18.

Beware lest you forget the Lord your God, in not keeping His commandments, and His ordinances, and His statutes, which I command thee this day; lest when you have eaten and are satisfied, and have built goodly houses, and dwelt therein; and when your herds and your flocks multiply, and your silver and your gold is multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied; then your heart be lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; who led you through the great and dreadful wilderness, wherein were serpents, fiery serpents, and scorpions, and thirsty ground where was no water; who brought you forth water out of the rock of flint; who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers knew not, that He might afflict you, and that He might prove you, to do you good at your latter end; and you say in your heart: 'My power and the might of my hand has gotten me this wealth.' But you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He that giveth you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore unto your fathers, as it is this day.

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God refers to the manna as a test, but what kind of test was it? It fell everyday (except the Sabbath) like clockwork. That was the test, its very clockwork nature. Would we see it as a direct gift from God or knowing that it would always fall in abundance, would we let its regularity & its abundance lull us into spiritual numbness in which we would come to take it, and the God who provided it, for granted?

When a person has nothing & is in dire straits, it is only natural (rather, I'll say that it's much more common/traditional) that he/she turn to God for comfort and reassurance. But how often do we, as Deuteronomy hints, look at the plenty around us & forget the God who provided it & think that we did it? (Look also at Deuteronomy 32:15.)

Our Sages say that he who neglects God in the midst of wealth will one day neglect Him in the midst of poverty but that he who honors God in the midst of poverty will one day honor Him in the midst of wealth.

Be well!

ssv

Originally posted by Arnold_Philips
Is atheism primarily a phenomenon that occurs in industrialized nations?

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I doubt that it nontheism is primarily found in industrialized areas.  However I recall seeing statistics that show that high rates of nontheism correlate with high rates of education. Note that this is correlation; not causation. Generally populations of more highly educated people have a larger proportion of nontheists than to populations of poorly educated people.

Do they reject God only because they can afford to do so?

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Of course, I'd reword your question and instead ask it this way; Do they lack a belief in a god or gods because they can afford to?

I doubt that nontheism relates much to having money except to the extent that wealth and level of education correlate.

 I haven't really done much substantial research of demographics and such, but I am under the impression that there are not many out there, and that they are centralized.

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I have seen the statistics that I mentioned above but I don't recall were I saw them.

Originally posted by stillsmallvoice
Hi all!

Hmm, speaking off the top of my head (such as it is) & without any empirical or anecdotal evidence whatsoever, I think Arnold may be on to something. Where is God/divinity (Hi Havoc!) more easily neglected, amidst poverty or amidst wealth?

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aye, when you're wealthy, you may not have as much time for God, so then who becomes the center of the universe? you.

Arnold_Philips,

there's a quote button at the end of each post. Simply press it for the post you want to quote.

Originally posted by Arnold_Philips
HOORJ! (it's the new "hooray", for those of you who simply cannot be as hip as I am)

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Arnold you have such a great personality can I use HOORJ too? 

Worldwide, in 1991 the top 10 countries with the highest percentage of atheists were NOT all what would be considered wealthy. Many seem to be former Soviet countries and surprisingly Israel is listed in the top ten.

This is interesting to me as I know two people who grew up in the Soviet Union...when it fell they were told by their families that they were Jewish and needed to practice their faith...neither one of them understood the purpose of God because they had never been exposed to religious ideas....to them it sounded like a mythical fairy tale. Missionaries flocked to many of these countries...but religion does not seem important to these people...just my random thoughts. The stats are old...not sure what they would be now

http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/statstext.html

Once it is known what causes Atheism, perhaps we can start working on a cure for this horrendou...

...hold on...

...I AM an atheist !!

(heheh)

never mind.

Originally posted by amie
atheists don't have a belief in God so I would venture to say they are everywhere, all nations not just the "industrialized nations"

phenomenon???



of course not...poor, middle class, an wealthy...all walks of life



nonbelievers are not contained in one area...

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What she said.

Both Nietzsche and Bertrand Russell had some interesting comments on the relationship between Christianity and atheism. Atheism does seem more prominant in communities that have been exposed to the literalism of Christian beliefs. One way of looking at it, Nietzsche's is to say that athiems is Christian morality overcoming Christian metaphysics. Of course that's not a statistical arument, but it points to another variable that doesn't seem to have been mentioned.

Oh but Aimie, you are wrong, we all come from the Federal Republic of Heathonia, and yes we do in fact have a highly centralized government. (I wish we were all wealthy.)

So what you are saying then is "I would be a Christian, if it weren't for Christians." Hmmm. Heard that somewhere before. However, if looking at Christians is how you decide to become one or not, I would become an atheist myself. Because when you look at "Christians" you are looking at a group of people who "claim" to be Christian, and may or may not be. Just as many who "claim" to be atheists are simply people who are Mad at God.

Originally posted by Arnold_Philips
That reminds me of this program I saw where missionaries tried to convert these South American native. It was discovered during the process that the natives didn't even have a concept of forgiveness, which I found interesting. The story ends like this: the missionaries die and it takes a couple more decades to convert the village. 

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That reminds me of a good joke.

This eskimo is ice-fishing one day, when a priest walks up to him and starts to spout his regular proselytizing routine.   The priest is a very organized guy, so of course his speech was very comprehensive and covered all aspects of Christianity.   He goes on and on, and after about an hour, he finally finishes.

At the end of the priest's spiel, the eskimo gets a puzzled look on his face.

"Is there anything that you don't understand, my son?" inquires the priest.

"Let me get this straight.   I need Jesus to be saved, and I need to go to church every Sunday for the rest of my life." 

"That is correct," replied the priest.

"But if I didn't know about Jesus, I wouldn't go to hell, and I wouldn't have to go to church?"

"Right."

"So why'd you tell me?"

Hi Gerry,

Yeah, people people have a way of disgracing their own ideals, whatever those may be. What Iwas actually suggesting is that the demand that people believe a given proposition (such as "Jesus is the Lord") in absolute literal terms sets the stage for those of us who say 'no'. In societies where people play with their cosmological symbolism a bit more, you just don't find the dispute between believers and unbelivers; you find those that help with a ceremoy and those that hang around the fringes. But it is the kinship relations that are at stake in such cases, not the actual truth of the religion in question.