Autocephaly or The Big 5?

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Jacob4707

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http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=11-05-019-f


Interesting comments:
Orthodox Reservations

The first lecturer, Archbishop Peter (L’Hullier), of the Orthodox Church in America, elaborated some of the historical and canonical problems still to be resolved relative to the question of any individual “primacy” in the Church. It took some time, he observed, for the East to become aware that Rome was really serious in its claim of universal jurisdiction over the whole Church. No such claim had been advanced, after all, during the first millennium of Christian history. What was at first perceived in the eleventh century as a mere eccentricity of Hildebrand (Pope Gregory VII) did not pose a canonical obstacle for the Orthodox until the end of the twelfth century, nor did it much preoccupy their canonical thought until the time of the Reformation, centuries later. Unfortunately, the archbishop argued, Orthodox apologists then adopted largely Protestant arguments against the papacy (just as, he added, they not infrequently used Roman Catholic polemics against the Protestants!).​

More sound, he contended, and more traditional was the earlier attitude of St. Nicholas Cabasilas, who rejected Roman claims to universal “jurisdiction” while admitting Rome’s responsibility to exercise a universal “solicitude” over the whole Church. Such a canonical distinction had been standard from the earliest centuries, according to Archbishop Peter; “jurisdiction” (exousia) was the exclusive prerogative of local bishops, while a more general “solicitude” (phrontis) was proper to the oversight of popes, patriarchs, metropolitans, and other multi-diocesan pastoral ministries.​

Archbishop Peter went on to indicate problems with some standard expressions that Orthodox have adopted to speak of their own position relative to the Roman primacy. He observed, for instance, that their favorite phrase “first among equals” is a formulation “not completely coherent,” while Orthodox insistence on maintaining the traditional Pentarchy (the five ancient patriarchates established by ecumenical councils: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) is both artificial and at odds with Orthodoxy’s own practice of the autocephaly (regional independence) of churches along national lines. In general, he concluded, the Orthodox must work harder to clarify their own thinking about primacy—to be able to tell Rome what they do mean by it, not simply what they do not mean.​
He seems to be saying a couple things: 1) The Orthodox term "first among equals" when speaking of the Bishop of Rome needs some clarification; 2) Maintaining the status of the 5 ancient patriarchates is contrary to autocephaly.

Any thoughts?
 

authiodionitist

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I'm going to offer my general impression. I am willing to delve into quotes and specifics if need be.

The remainder of the article reflects on the unimportance of universal jurisdictional "primacy" in favor of our insistence on prayer and mysteries. If these prayers and holy mysteries are done correctly according to the experience of the saints and the witness of the Church, then there is no need for such discussion of canonical imperatives as it should naturally flow.

Take, for example, the first Tomos of Autocephaly. The Georgian Orthodox Church, if I remember correctly, was granted Autocephaly by Antioch and All the East back in the 10th century out of the tremendous growth that occurred in that country at that time. These fruits of prayer and celebration of the Mysteries clearly needed continued freedom to do so, and as the bishop is God's representative on earth, they needed the affirmation that their highest bishop, the Catholicos, was indeed celebrating the Mysteries and going into the deep prayer of the saints, which is truly the prayer of Jesus Christ.

If the Roman Catholics were to concern themselves with prayer and the Holy Mysteries, then the exterior order of things would not be so separate from the rest in their decision-making process. Take a look at the author's example of the Ukranian Uniate priests in Poland - it is an utter confusion of exterior order with interior prayer.

....back to work for the moment...feel free to comment and we will discuss....
 
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buzuxi02

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That's an interesting thought.

Could you elaborate?
There obselete, theres no more empire, the churches jurisdictions are based upon their respective countries now. The MP has more christians under his juridiction than all other churches combined, he could care less what the "pentarchy" has to say.
 
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jckstraw72

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i was taught in my Orthodoxy class that Rome could be like an appeals court for the whole Church -- they couldnt step in to a matter outside its jurisdiction, but it was seen as a place to go when an issue couldnt be resolved within a jurisdiction.

and i have a question -- were the Patriarchs originally just over their cities, or was it always like "Moscow, and all Russia" or "Alexandria, and all Africa"? cause we say all bishops are equal, but it seems to me that certainly a Patriarch has more authority than a bishop. like in the OCA, isnt Met. HERMAN able to tell Bishop Benjamin in CA what to do?
 
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buzuxi02

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i was taught in my Orthodoxy class that Rome could be like an appeals court for the whole Church -- they couldnt step in to a matter outside its jurisdiction, but it was seen as a place to go when an issue couldnt be resolved within a jurisdiction.

and i have a question -- were the Patriarchs originally just over their cities, or was it always like "Moscow, and all Russia" or "Alexandria, and all Africa"? cause we say all bishops are equal, but it seems to me that certainly a Patriarch has more authority than a bishop. like in the OCA, isnt Met. HERMAN able to tell Bishop Benjamin in CA what to do?
All bishops are equal and are the heads of their dioceses. The various bishops of the diocese constitutes the members of that Synod. The Synod has a president which is the archbishop or patriarch or metropolitan or whatever other political title the canons have granted to the person which presides over the synod.

Of course this may not be the case, like in this country where many bishops are simply puppets for their superiors in the old country and can be pulled and put on an airplane back in a heartbeat if neccesary, but thats uncanonical. (I have no specific jurisdiction in mind, really.)


Any other priveleges like a patriarch being "an appeals" were granted by canons and are optional.
 
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authiodionitist

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i was taught in my Orthodoxy class that Rome could be like an appeals court for the whole Church -- they couldnt step in to a matter outside its jurisdiction, but it was seen as a place to go when an issue couldnt be resolved within a jurisdiction.

and i have a question -- were the Patriarchs originally just over their cities, or was it always like "Moscow, and all Russia" or "Alexandria, and all Africa"? cause we say all bishops are equal, but it seems to me that certainly a Patriarch has more authority than a bishop. like in the OCA, isnt Met. HERMAN able to tell Bishop Benjamin in CA what to do?
An Archbishop is the bishops' bishop. Metropolitan is the archbishops' archbhisop. The Patriarch is the metropolitans' metropolitan.

And wherever that higher ranking bishop is, he is the bishop of that diocese. Example: HH Alexei is the bishop of Moscow, Patriarch of All Russia (the bishops' bishops' bishop). No one else is bishop of Moscow.
 
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authiodionitist

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There obselete, theres no more empire, the churches jurisdictions are based upon their respective countries now. The MP has more christians under his juridiction than all other churches combined, he could care less what the "pentarchy" has to say.
I also agree that the Pentarchy is inadequate in our present context. HH Alexei is closest thing to a universal "head" of the Orthodox Church.
 
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